What Safety is there at 12? Or Hockenson ~ the next Gronk

[brandon2348]

Amos has played both SS and FS. In his college and pro career he actually has played more FS. If Josh Jones could make a step up and play SS, Amos could be paired with Josh. Josh Jones though is probably best used as a LB when the D is in nickel and dime.

My feeling is that Amos should play SS and that a true FS like Thornhill should be drafted to pair with Amos.

It's not known for sure where Pettine plans to play Amos, but if a FS is drafted then no doubt the safety taken should be Juan Thornhill. The best FS in the draft by far IMHO.

If Amos can't play Free Safery then the Packers got ripped off because he isnt a GAME CHANGING SS.

That's why I never wanted him. All this hype and now he cant even play FS and we have to draft yet another safety which if its Thornhill will be a complete disaster. You really dont want any rookie playing FS for that matter..

I tried to explain this prior to the signing but appears people and Gute liked the KOOL-AID too much.

 

[PackinMSP]

I think... EVERY team would "ideally" be looking for a FS like Eric Berry, Earl Thomas, Nic Collins(in his prime), etc

But honestly... those types of players are EXTREMELY HARD to find...

You have guys who can make plays but really just blow too many coverages to be considered elite like those guys... Darren Sharper, HaHa

and the guys who are really good but don't force enough turnovers, Keanu Neal, Bob Sanders, Devin McCourty

So it's really not about finding a SPECIFIC type of "Free Safety" or "Strong Safety"... I almost feel like sometimes it's just take as many shots as possible and hit on one, or hopefully BOTH of them

 

[brandon2348]

It's almost as though Brandon gets on the board every night and thinks:

Ok... now how can I get myself taken even less seriously? How can I become more of a joke? Aha! Here's a way!

I've basically predicted this **** SHOW for last three years to the tee so whatever.

Go back and read the posts. From holding onto Ted Thompson too long to the potential of the offense not clicking without Rodgers playing at a Superman level.

You on the other hand have gone against all of it and defended Thompson while you continue to have this wet dream fascination of building some elite defense which is a total PIPE DREAM.

Especially if they keep drafting PUSSIE'S.

 

[InGuteWeTrust]

If Amos can't play Free Safery then the Packers got ripped off because he isnt a GAME CHANGING SS.

That's why I never wanted him. All this hype and now he cant even play FS and we have to draft yet another safety which if its Thornhill will be a complete disaster. You really dont want any rookie playing FS for that matter..

I tried to explain this prior to the signing but appears people and Gute liked the KOOL-AID too much.

LOL

No one said Amos can't play FS. I said he actually has played FS more than SS in his career.

The point is that we are not Mike Pettine nor do we know exactly how Pettine plans to use Amos. I am also quite sure that Pettine wants to actually see Amos playing with the rest of the defense on the practice field before he starts talking publicly about who will play where. I'm sure he has a pretty good idea how Amos will fit in his defense and how he wants to use him or he wouldn't have been in on the signing like he was.

 

[Fat Dogs]

Amos covers ground like very few can?

That is not how I would describe him. He's super solid in coverage, especially for a SS, but you really wouldn't want him in single high a lot.

I think he can play some FS in some schemes, but he's best as a very versatile SS.

Ok, maybe the “covers ground like nobody can” was an overstatement but he can cover a lot of ground. He may not get to many INT’s but he doesn’t get beat often. He’s best suited doing both. I think drafting a FS type instead of another combo safety limits his ability to play anywhere on the field.

 

[InGuteWeTrust]

Ok, maybe the “covers ground like nobody can” was an overstatement but he can cover a lot of ground. He may not get to many INT’s but he doesn’t get beat often. He’s best suited doing both. I think drafting a FS type instead of another combo safety limits his ability to play anywhere on the field.

It wouldn't limit Amos at all. Do you think because the FS has great cover skills that it doesn't allow the SS to ever showcase his deep cover skills? It just isn't the case.

Don't get too caught up in the titles of FS and SS and just worry about getting the best 2 players on the field. A great cover guy like Thornhill wouldn't limit Amos' skills in the least.

 

[Fat Dogs]

It wouldn't limit Amos at all. Do you think because the FS has great cover skills that it doesn't allow the SS to ever showcase his deep cover skills? It just isn't the case.

Don't get too caught up in the titles of FS and SS and just worry about getting the best 2 players on the field. A great cover guy like Thornhill wouldn't limit Amos' skills in the least.

I don’t get caught up the on the SS and FS designation and that’s my point. We do need the best 2 players on the field. I just like having 2 guys that are capable of playing both well. The problem with having a prototypical FS is that they are very rarely built for run support and that’s fine when playing single high but pettines D is built on disguiseing coverages and unpredictability so flexibility is the key. You are right about none of us knowing how they plan to use Amos so who knows what they are looking for. I think we all worry about drafting a guy that excels in coverage but is a liability at the line and vice versa. That’s why I like Rapp and Adderley so much. IMO They fit the “Amos mold” of being able to play anywhere on the field. Adderly is viewed as a free safety but the kid can hit and has better coverage skills than Thornhill. I’m hoping he’s our choice if we decide to use Amos at SS and are looking to draft a true FS.

 

[InGuteWeTrust]

I don’t get caught up the on the SS and FS designation and that’s my point. We do need the best 2 players on the field. I just like having 2 guys that are capable of playing both well. The problem with having a prototypical FS is that they are very rarely built for run support and that’s fine when playing single high but pettines D is built on disguiseing coverages and unpredictability so flexibility is the key. You are right about none of us knowing how they plan to use Amos so who knows what they are looking for. I think we all worry about drafting a guy that excels in coverage but is a liability at the line and vice versa. That’s why I like Rapp and Adderley so much. IMO They fit the “Amos mold” of being able to play anywhere on the field. Adderly is viewed as a free safety but the kid can hit and has better coverage skills than Thornhill. I’m hoping he’s our choice if we decide to use Amos at SS and are looking to draft a true FS.

I get what you are saying, but I think having a very high level cover guy in center-field is such a advantage that I'd like to find that guy. Amos is very good at everything, but isn't at a elite level in coverage.

I do disagree with your feelings on Adderly having "better coverage skills" than Thornhill. We can agree to disagree on that.

 

[GleefulGary]

We need to get tough, mean and nasty on defense to finish what Gute has done in free agency. We have to do this and still add speed. The players that should be targeted on defense.

DL. Christian Wilkins, Ed Oliver

LB Germaine Pratt

S Johnathan Abram, Mike Bell

This is my GOLD LIST heading into the draft.

We could probably get either Oliver or Wilkins and add Pratt and Bell which would be amazing.

We would stil have couple top picks at 30 and 2nd round to get

Parris Campbell

We would need to trade up with our 2nd rouund pick to get.

Chris Lindstrom.

If this happened we would immediately become serious SUPER BOWL CONTENDERS. They need to consolidate there 10 picks to 6-7. I'm tired of late round trash. Everyone keeps saying how late round picks can be amazing so somebody please show me one we have drafted recently? For all our late round picks we don't have **** but a bunch of JAGS. This team can't be built on JAG's anymore. Last year proved that.

NO MORE PUSSIE'S!

Adding Mike Bell just screams adding speed on defense.

4.83 40 big guy.

 

[GleefulGary]

Hockenson ran a 4.75 as one of his times. It's shocking to me people even have this slug going in the first round.

Quite frankly, it's because you're stupid.

Have a great day!

 

[GleefulGary]

He can't play single high in NFl. He is a cover 3 zone safety.

He is another Josh Jones. Great combine with subpar instincts. Not a natural football player.

Plus he is a *****!

Thornhill?

This coming from the guy that thought Jon Abram was a FS and wants to draft 4.83 Mike Bell?!

Lol.

 

[GleefulGary]

Yeah because the list of Sidney Jones, Buddah Baker and Kevin King has been so so impressive. All guys you thought would be AMAZING!

Some idiots will never learn. Stay the hell out of the Pac 12 on defense.

Our best defensive player is from the Pac-12.

Our best LB is from the Pac-12.

Our 2nd best CB is from the Pac-12.

Packers career sack leader is from the Pac-12.

 

[Fat Dogs]

I get what you are saying, but I think having a very high level cover guy in center-field is such a advantage that I'd like to find that guy. Amos is very good at everything, but isn't at a elite level in coverage.

I do disagree with your feelings on Adderly having "better coverage skills" than Thornhill. We can agree to disagree on that.

Maybe my philosophy stems from not having that centerfield guy for a long time and not remembering what it’s like. Everything starts up front for me. Get some pass rush and good corners and safeties look great. Our front 7 has vastly improved and we will see a huge difference from our secondary no matter what Gute decides. We all love different prospects and I love hearing others opinions. I think we all would be happier than sad if a player we hated pre-draft became an asset and helped us win. I hated the Jordy pick and look how that turned out.

 

[sschind]

I think... EVERY team would "ideally" be looking for a FS like Eric Berry, Earl Thomas, Nic Collins(in his prime), etc

But honestly... those types of players are EXTREMELY HARD to find...

You have guys who can make plays but really just blow too many coverages to be considered elite like those guys... Darren Sharper, HaHa

and the guys who are really good but don't force enough turnovers, Keanu Neal, Bob Sanders, Devin McCourty

So it's really not about finding a SPECIFIC type of "Free Safety" or "Strong Safety"... I almost feel like sometimes it's just take as many shots as possible and hit on one, or hopefully BOTH of them

I don't think you will find many college plays who are not deficient in some aspect of their game. This one has good coverage skills but isn't as good at tackling. This guy hits and tackles like a truck but gets beat a bit more often. If you do fond the great tackler who covers like a blanket he will probably be gone before we pick at 12.

What you need to do is find a guy whose deficiencies you can live with for now and hope to improve with experience and coaching. It sounds to me like any of these guys would be worthy of a pick at 30 or 44.

 

[brandon2348]

Adding Mike Bell just screams adding speed on defense.

4.83 40 big guy.

He can tackle(which we need) he would add length in the middle and great ball skills. He could be a nice piece in the PETTINE PlAN.

PRO DAY 4.65

https://247sports.com/college/fresn...ts-247Sports-BarkBoard-Brian-Burt--130255040/

 

[brandon2348]

Thornhill?

This coming from the guy that thought Jon Abram was a FS and wants to draft 4.83 Mike Bell?!

Lol.

Abram is the best safety in the draft.

 

[brandon2348]

Our best defensive player is from the Pac-12.

Our best LB is from the Pac-12.

Our 2nd best CB is from the Pac-12.

Packers career sack leader is from the Pac-12.

Do I really need to name the others?

Batting like .185. Its an ABSOLUTE JOkE! When that's all you draft on defense for years and years a couple are bound to be decent. Geez. Really?

BTW King hasnt proven anything other then he is Pac 12 Glass. He will NEVER STAY HEAlTHY and eveyone knows it. Blow on the guy and he gets hurt.

YOUR DELUSIONAL!

 

[GleefulGary]

Abram is the best safety in the draft.

Agree to disagree, but he sure as hell ain't a FS.

 

[GleefulGary]

He can tackle(which we need) he would add length in the middle and great ball skills. He could be a nice piece in the PETTINE PlAN.

PRO DAY 4.65

https://247sports.com/college/fresn...ts-247Sports-BarkBoard-Brian-Burt--130255040/

I don't care much about hand times from a pro day. At the combine, he had a laser timed 4.83. He didn't just get two tenths faster buddy.

 

[brandon2348]

Agree to disagree, but he sure as hell ain't a FS.

Then Amos isn't one either.

 

[brandon2348]

I don't care much about hand times from a pro day. At the combine, he had a laser timed 4.83. He didn't just get two tenths faster buddy.

Well in the 4th round he is GREAT VALUE. It's not like I'm talking about taking a slow TE in the 1st round.

 

[sschind]

I know I keep mentioning mock drafts and I realize that they are not always the expert sources of information they like to pretend they are but I have seen enough of them that have Hockenson going to us at 12 or even before us to think he is certainly worth the #12 pick. As opposed to say Fant who I have seen going to us at 12 but rarely before us and often to us at 30 so if we are going to take TE at 12 I hope it is Hockenson.

As I said before mocks taken individually are pretty much useless for people who don't know the players from watching them (people like me) If I look at 1 mock and I see they have us taking player A I logically think player A must be pretty good and I would be happy with him. However, if I look at 10 other mocks and the highest any of them have Player A going is 18 and most are in the 20's and a couple not even in the 1st round I have to wonder if player A is the best choice for us at #12. That is not to say he wouldn't be a good pick. Just that he might not be the best choice for that high of a pick. If he is a player a team really likes he may be the target of a trade down at this point. Likewise if those 10 other mocks have player A clustered around 12 (10-15 say) I think I can logically assume that he might be a good choice. If 8 of those 10 mocks have him going in the top 10 I might think he would be steal at 12 and we should definitely take him if he is there. IMO mocks are only good if use as comparisons to one another but when used as such they can be a pretty good indicator of where a player should be expected to go.

Obviously personal preferences can really affect those grades. I have seen Hockenson mocked in the third round (post combine) by a few people but its few enough for me to consider them outliers and I pretty much disregard them. These are most likely guys who have a personal dislike for the player for whatever reason.

everyone watches players with their own prejudices in mind so they will have their own favorites and their own duds. In some cases they will be right and in some they will be wrong.

 

[InGuteWeTrust]

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This dude just looks our next FS doesn't he? I love the Miami fan in the background signaling touchdown just as FS Juan Thornhill swoops in and NOT TODAY!

 

[Dantés]

Maybe my philosophy stems from not having that centerfield guy for a long time and not remembering what it’s like. Everything starts up front for me. Get some pass rush and good corners and safeties look great. Our front 7 has vastly improved and we will see a huge difference from our secondary no matter what Gute decides. We all love different prospects and I love hearing others opinions. I think we all would be happier than sad if a player we hated pre-draft became an asset and helped us win. I hated the Jordy pick and look how that turned out.

What's funny is that we basically want the exact same things, we just have a different read on the players.

If I understand you, we both want two combo safeties who are versatile enough to play both high and low and who give Pettine's the versatility to be multiple.

The difference is that you see Rapp as that combo guy, while I think he's more strictly a down safety. And I see Thornhill as that combo guy, while you think he's more strictly a high safety. And we both see Amos as a combo safety, but I think his strengths are bigger player low and you think his strengths are playing high.

Suffice it to say we agree that we should find a running mate for Amos in this class.

 

[GleefulGary]

Well in the 4th round he is GREAT VALUE. It's not like I'm talking about taking a slow TE in the 1st round.

I don't think you understand. I like Mike Bell, pretty sure I was the first one here to bring him up. But when you talk about GAME CHANGING SPEED, and thing bring up a safety who runs a 4.8, your narrative starts to ring hollow.

And we've been over this. Hock is in the 91st percentile of athleticism given his size for TE's. The idea he isn't a good athlete, or that he's slow, is laughable and easily proven wrong.