What Safety is there at 12? Or Hockenson ~ the next Gronk

[brandon2348]

Thank you for your response. As I have said before all I have to go on with these guys is the opinions of others so I do value all of them, even yours . I could be happy with your mock given the things I have heard about these players.

Just from what I have been seeing there may be a few other OL who might be available at 12 that I would rather have than Ford but I've seen enough good things about him to know I'd be OK with him.

If Campbell can play the slot I'd be fine with him at #30. Again, it may be a little higher than I have seen him going on average but not unrealistically so and I have seen him going higher in a few so again it not out of line.

I have said before that I almost hope someone takes Hockenson before we pick at #12 not because I don't want him but because I'd rather have an OL or DL at that spot and I have heard enough good things about Smith to think he would be a very good alternative.

Now on to my criticisms of your post (you knew they were coming didn't you) not criticisms so much as more questions. You've said many times that with the TEs we have on the roster we don't have room for Hockenson at #12 and yet you take one at #44. If we don't have room for the #1 TE prospect (I know not yours) how do you justify taking one at #44. Do you think Smith is a better TE prospect than Hockenson? Finally we have three TEs on the roster that combined are better than Hockenson (one is faster, one is a better blocker and one has more length) but since we can have at best 2 of them on the field at a time and only one can get the ball if that 1 is Hockenson he would be better than any one of the three in at least 2 areas. Isn't that better.

Anyway, thanks again for taking time to answer my questions. I know it seems like everyone gangs up on you, myself included, but like I said I value all opinions and when they are presented in a respectful manner it means even more.

Like I posted Irv Smith wouldn't be my favorite pick there. To me it's more of a relief then anything taking one in the second round and not with our 1st round picks.

I really don't know why so many people have TE's mocked to the Packers with 3 competent ones on the roster signed. There was a time we had 4 of them on the roster so who knows.

If I could completely re-do that Mock into "Brandons's Mock" it would go

1st round pick 1, Ed Oliver or Christian Wilkins. DL- This would give us the FINAL PIECE UPFRONT

1st round pick 2, P. Campbell WR,

2nd round, Chris Lindstrom OL, I believe he will be a PRO BOWL GUARD

3rd round, Germanine Pratt LB, Watching this guy is so much fun. He can Cover and go Sideline to Sideline and Loves to Tackle. Sign me up.

Later on I would use picks to move up and target a combo of these players

RB Justice Hill, Explosive Playmaker
RB LJ. Scott, Underrated NFL READY RB
WR Keesean Johnson, Reminds me of Keenan Allen
TE Jace Sternberger, Nice Receiving TE with Graham getting close to the end
S Mike Bell, Nice Box safety who can Tackle and good coverage skills in the intermediate Pass Game.

These are all my "PRiZED POSESSIONS"

 

[brandon2348]

That Walter Mock reaffirms my thought process. Make it easy for Washington to move to 12 with a straightforward and very fair deal.
Give Washington our #12 and #75 and get
#15 and #46 in return. I’d even dangle the pick #226 as an olive branch. It’s always good to have trade partners and keep relationships open for future trades.
That way we’d pick twice in the 1st round..and then again twice in the first half of the 2nd round.

Not that this is mandatory, but that seems to be a place we’re historically successful at WR or TE in the event we don’t get our guy round 1.
Heck, with some good fortune it might even cover both.
My ideal wish would be a premier Defender
at #15 (if were confident Washington picks a QB at #12 we may also see Miami do likewise at #13)
A starting caliber OL at #30, then the best 2 of these 3 round 2. WR, TE, RB

I'm fine with that MOVE BACK as long as we don't pass up one of the ELITE OL or DL in this draft.

 

[brandon2348]

See, this is the problem.

I've explained all over the place why I personally like Hockenson, among other prospects, as a potential target for the Packers.

But you can't handle disagreement or discussion, so you flail around and turn your all-caps on pitch a hissy. That's fine if you want to do that. It really doesn't affect my day. But it is literally turning you into a punchline on this forum.

If it helps you, I'll give my "personal vision" (for whatever that's worth) for why I'm interested in Hockenson, among others, for the Packers in round 1.

In a vacuum, Hockenson is an elite TE prospect. His blocking and his hands are elite traits. His athleticism, route running, and yards after the catch ability are all high end. He wins both in the short game and the deep game. His athleticism is around the 90th%. Taken altogether, he's in the conversation with O.J. Howard as the best TE prospect to have come out since Gronkowski. That is to say that he's one of the two best guys to come out at his position in a decade.

More specifically to the Packers, Hockenson gives you the ability to be multiple without changing personnel. He's an elite run blocker and an excellent receiver. Being able to run and pass equally effectively out of the same personnel has been a staple of the offensive system that LaFleur comes from.

LaFleur has heavily used TE's in the past, and a lot of 12 personnel. Thus even with other players under contract, TE is a need. And moving beyond this season, it's a really big need. Graham is in decline and will be a cap casualty after this season. Lewis is an unknown commodity on a one year deal, being 35 years old this season and barely playing last year. Tonyan is a project.

So my "vision" for him is that he gives LaFleur a really dangerous 12 personnel weapon in year one, and into the future he acts a catalyst for making the run and pass game equally effective without changing personnel groupings. That value, in addition to what I believe would be high end receiving production and plus blocking, is worth a 1st round pick to me and would be a great fit with what GB wants to do moving forward.

All of that said, I am not sold that he is the #1 option for the Packers at 12, nor is he the only guy I'd be fine with. I recognize that positional value is a consideration. I've said elsewhere that taking Hockenson in the 1st round would probably only happen in reality if it's preceded by a trade down. Heck, I even mocked him one spot behind Parris Campbell recently (Campbell #22 to BAL; Hockenson #23 to HOU).

So there... that's why I like Hockenson. So despite the fact that I've said all of this elsewhere, he it is in one place. So you can't complain that you don't get an explanation.

I will give you that he does EVERYTHING WELL and has a better then average all around game. I do have my concerns with Length, Straight Line Speed and Hand size. Those things bother me more then the bench press.

People think I hate Hockenson and I don't. I hate him to the Packers with a premium pick with other major holes. IMO you have to project these players and that's what successful GM's successfully do. You also have to Vision them in your scheme with current personnel. Meaning one player can go somewhere and be an ALL-STAR but could go be a Lame somewhere else.

With that said I would tilt the scale to Fant if the Packers had to use a PREMIUM PICK on a TE.

 

[brandon2348]

That's a real knee slapper. Why all the hate? lol If you are this clairvoyant I want you to help us with stock picks on Wall Street .

That would cost you.

 

[brandon2348]

i have not had a go at your actual opinion, just the way you are presenting it & yourself

Patience is not my strong suit and when I have to explain the same thing over and over it gets a little frustrating.

 

[Dantés]

I will give you that he does EVERYTHING WELL and has a better then average all around game. I do have my concerns with Length, Straight Line Speed and Hand size. Those things bother me more then the bench press.

People think I hate Hockenson and I don't. I hate him to the Packers with a premium pick with other major holes. IMO you have to project these players and that's what successful GM's successfully do. You also have to Vision them in your scheme with current personnel. Meaning one player can go somewhere and be an ALL-STAR but could go be a Lame somewhere else.

With that said I would tilt the scale to Fant if the Packers had to use a PREMIUM PICK on a TE.

I've never thought you hated Hockenson. You just hate being disagreed with.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The Packers have Mike Daniels, Brian Bulaga, and Jimmy Graham entering the final year of their respective contracts - Much like Jordy last year, and Matthews and Cobb this year, it seems unlikely any of them will be retained after the coming season. All appear to be in decline. Ideally, you'd like to have their replacements on the roster, so this is perhaps something GB plans to address in the coming draft.


And.....Still need another safety, among other things.

The Packers have some positions to address in the draft for this season but they should think about possible replacements for the players you mentioned as well.

I really don't know why so many people have TE's mocked to the Packers with 3 competent ones on the roster signed. There was a time we had 4 of them on the roster so who knows.

Graham is the only competent tight end on the roster and even he has shown signs of declining. Lewis, at age 35, and Tonyan can't be counted one to have an impact at this point.

 

[OldSchool101]

Graham is the only competent tight end on the roster and even he has shown signs of declining. Lewis, at age 35, and Tonyan can't be counted one to have an impact at this point.

Duly noted. It’s also very advantageous for our Cap to have a TE get a year in the system in the event Graham regresses and we need to walk away in 2020.
I like a TE versed at both blocking and receiving. He’s got the best record of any TE and understanding where that 1st down marker is.
However, I also have concerns at #12 being used here. Now that said? if we could get him at #15-#19 range or so and pick up another day 2 pick I see some logic there and a more reasonable value but I see him as more of that #20-#30 range guy (that’s not a slight on him as many teams see him below Eric Ebron level talent)

I also think there will be several other TE prospects that could develop into solid starters within a year in the system. Irv Smith is a guy that comes from substantial pedigree and if given proper tutelage could surpass Hockenson in a year or two. Especially with Aaron tossing the ball, Rodgers tends to make those 2nd day picks look like 1st day products. I’m all over Hock if he gets into that mid 20’s range or if we traded up a few spots from #30. TJ’s combine hurt his stock slightly and took him out of our 1st pick IMO.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Duly noted. It’s also very advantageous for our Cap to have a TE get a year in the system in the event Graham regresses and we need to walk away in 2020.
I like a TE versed at both blocking and receiving. He’s got the best record of any TE and understanding where that 1st down marker is.
However, I also have concerns at #12 being used here. Now that said? if we could get him at #15-#19 range or so and pick up another day 2 pick I see some logic there and a more reasonable value but I see him as more of that #20-#30 range guy (that’s not a slight on him as many teams see him below Eric Ebron level talent)

I also think there will be several other TE prospects that could develop into solid starters within a year in the system. Irv Smith is a guy that comes from substantial pedigree and if given proper tutelage could surpass Hockenson in a year or two. Especially with Aaron tossing the ball, Rodgers tends to make those 2nd day picks look like 1st day products.
I’m all over Hock if he gets into that mid 20’s range or if we traded up a few spots from #30. TJ’s combine hurt his stock slightly and put him from the teens to early twenties range.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not set on drafting Hockenson at #12 but with the position in need of an upgrade it wouldn't be a huge surprise either.

 

[brandon2348]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not set on drafting Hockenson at #12 but with the position in need of an upgrade it wouldn't be a huge surprise either.

I have made no bones about being AN ALL OFFENSIVE GUY with the current Packers roster but Hockenson is not the answer IMO. He doesn't push us over the top. Getting Oliver or Wilkins does.