Studs n duds Miami

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but we were really lucky the Dolphins did not challenge that Mercedes Lewis long catch. And we sure took our sweet time hiking the ball. That was a really great throw.

Yup, no doubt that wasn't a catch and it would have most likely been reversed. Sometimes you catch a break, but at least THAT is on the Dolphins coaching staff, since they had the power to challenge it and didn't.

 

[gopkrs]

Yup, no doubt that wasn't a catch and it would have most likely been reversed. Sometimes you catch a break, but at least THAT is on the Dolphins coaching staff, since they had the power to challenge it and didn't.

Specifically the guys upstairs or the communication. No excuse for that.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Specifically the guys upstairs or the communication. No excuse for that.

Agree and as you mentioned, the Packers should have hurried the next snap, so that the Dolphins couldn't take the time to look at it closely and challenge it. Million dollar businesses and they couldn't afford to hire a couple of knuckleheads like you and I to keep an eye on this stuff?

While we are on the subject, I wish the NFL would have spotter in the press box to more accurately spot the ball after each play. It would be simple enough for them to call down the right spot. Too many times I see a ref that is 5-10 yards behind or ahead of where the ball carrier goes down and they rarely spot it correctly. Often times it seems they are more likely to spot it where the runners knees hit and not where the ball actually is when the knees touch.

 

[milani]

Yup, no doubt that wasn't a catch and it would have most likely been reversed. Sometimes you catch a break, but at least THAT is on the Dolphins coaching staff, since they had the power to challenge it and didn't.

Inexperience showed in the Dolphins coaching staff as well as on the field. Could have used a timeout if needed. Pack were not rushing to get up to the line. MLF has failed to challenge of few this year as well.

 

[OldSchool101]

Agree and as you mentioned, the Packers should have hurried the next snap, so that the Dolphins couldn't take the time to look at it closely and challenge it. Million dollar businesses and they couldn't afford to hire a couple of knuckleheads like you and I to keep an eye on this stuff?

While we are on the subject, I wish the NFL would have spotter in the press box to more accurately spot the ball after each play. It would be simple enough for them to call down the right spot. Too many times I see a ref that is 5-10 yards behind or ahead of where the ball carrier goes down and they rarely spot it correctly. Often times it seems they are more likely to spot it where the runners knees hit and not where the ball actually is when the knees touch.

Drives me crazy when a player reaches way forward before stepping on the chalk and the ref spots the ball 1.5 yards backwards. It’s almost like they aren’t trained at proper spotting of the ball, but it’s a super important aspect of the game. Like you said, with technology they should never be more than around 1 foot off a perfect spot.

 

[Schultz]

Nice deflection. You made a definitive statement about the coaches trust in Crosby is low due to them choosing to go for it on 4th down. I gave you several reasons why your theory is very speculative and suspect. I don't consider your theory here as "tons of facts."

Captain is the board leader in my opinion when it comes to stats.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Captain is the board leader in my opinion when it comes to stats.

No doubt that Captain is a good stats guy, but in this case "4th down attempts = confidence level in Crosby by coaches", IMO is off-base and not necessarily true.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Nice deflection. You made a definitive statement about the coaches trust in Crosby is low due to them choosing to go for it on 4th down. I gave you several reasons why your theory is very speculative and suspect. I don't consider your theory here as "tons of facts."

I'm sorry but it's not my responsibility to prove one of your points. If you believe there's another legit reason aside of Crosby's lack of leg strength for the Packers to go for it more often than other teams on fourth down do the research on your own and back it up.

As a side note, I wasn't talking about me having presented a ton of facts on that specific topic but about Crosby being a below average kicker for most of his tenure over the past few years.

BTW as you brought in PFF's grades regarding Alexander (something you have continued to ignore you were completely off base) here's Crosby's rankings on kickoffs according to them:

Among the 32 kickers with the most attempts on kickoffs he's dead last in grade (22.0, next one at 31.6, 27 above 50), yards per attempt (61.4, they actually track the average yards the ball travelled even if it results in a touchback), percentage returned (80.6%, next closest at 53.8%) and hang time (3.60 seconds, something you claimed Bisaccia has him kick shorter but higher kicks).

I guess the NFL isn't aware of your suggestion that he has tried so many long kicks? Here's Crosby's career stats. The stats are there, they are from the NFL.

NFL.com | Official Site of the National Football League

The official source for NFL news, video highlights, fantasy football, game-day coverage, schedules, stats, scores and more.

www.nfl.com

That's actually pretty embarassing for the NFL website.

Here's the stats from Wiki. Completely different than those from NFL. Obviously, the NFL stats are totally wrong. They differ with you too, at roughly 57%. I guess one of the problems is that we see so many sets of stats and some are totally wrong. I know NFL is.... Now!

No, it's pretty easy to find accurate stats. If you take a closer look at the one's posted on Wikipedia they don't have any information for this season in which Crosby is 0-for-2 on 50+ yard field goals. Therefore he's 42-for-76 (55.3%) over his career.

FYI if you're interested in up-to-date, accurate numbers Pro Football Reference is the website to use. Here's a link to Crosby's profile:

Mason Crosby Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Mason Crosby. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

But, I still stand by what I've seen on the field in response to specific situations. The stats just don't show he's a bad kicker.

That's where I completely disagree. The numbers (actually nearly every single random metric that has been brought up over the past few years) strongly suggests that Crosby has been a below average kicker for most of his career. Yet Packers fans tend to ignore it for some unknown reason.

No doubt that Captain is a good stats guy, but in this case "4th down attempts = confidence level in Crosby by coaches", IMO is off-base and not necessarily true.

Prove me wrong.

 

[PackAttack12]

I think more than anything, the Packers going for it on 4th down as opposed to kicking the field goal is more so about LaFleur trying to ignite the offense as opposed to a lack of faith in Crosby.

 

[gopkrs]

I think more than anything, the Packers going for it on 4th down as opposed to kicking the field goal is more so about LaFleur trying to ignite the offense as opposed to a lack of faith in Crosby.

Well yes. But sometimes I think it is just fan pressure. Because we (and other teams) go for it even when it is not the best choice imho.

 

[PackAttack12]

Well yes. But sometimes I think it is just fan pressure. Because we (and other teams) go for it even when it is not the best choice imho.

I certainly hope Matt LaFleur isn’t making decisions due to pressure from the fans. For the record, I highly doubt this is the case.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Prove me wrong.

Again, you made a statement of your opinion, that you can't prove to be true. Unless, of course you can show me quotes of coaches saying they can't rely on Crosby on 40+ yd. kicks, so they prefer going for it on 4th down. Until you show me those quotes or I can find them, you are just trying to use a random stat, to make a very big assumption.

BTW as you brought in PFF's grades regarding Alexander (something you have continued to ignore you were completely off base)

I responded to you or another poster on this. Go find it. Alexander was listed on page 2 of PFF grades for CB's. I do not get the full stats, since I am not a subscriber, but given the way they list the top guys on page 1, I assume his overall ranking is nowhere near top 10. You brought up ONE stat...QBR ranking against Alexander. Which you said he is 8th in. Big deal, overall his play this season has not warranted him being paid as the best CB in the NFL.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I think more than anything, the Packers going for it on 4th down as opposed to kicking the field goal is more so about LaFleur trying to ignite the offense as opposed to a lack of faith in Crosby.

Come on...Captain has statistical proof that we are all wrong!

Seems to me that the metrics have changed a bit on "going for it on 4th down." I have seen more of it than in the past. Also, not just when it is in the red zone or even between the opponents 30-40 yard line. Coaches are going for it on their own side of the 50. Has nothing to do with their confidence or lack of for their kicker or punter and everything to do with feeling confident about the offense being able to pick up the first down.

 

[Voyageur]

All the coaches that have gone through Green Bay since Crosby was signed, and the GMs as well, must be pretty darned stupid. Imagine. Keeping this loser as a kicker all these years. How dare they!

 

[Voyageur]

Going for it is a confidence builder for both your offense and defense. It tells both of them you have confidence in their ability to do their job.

I know, for me, when I did it as a coach, I saw a positive reaction from my team, whether we made it or not. The message has been sent, and you're telling them to be ready, because you'll do it again, if the time is right.

 

[gopkrs]

Going for it is a confidence builder for both your offense and defense. It tells both of them you have confidence in their ability to do their job.

I know, for me, when I did it as a coach, I saw a positive reaction from my team, whether we made it or not. The message has been sent, and you're telling them to be ready, because you'll do it again, if the time is right.

The inmates running the asylum

 

[Voyageur]

The inmates running the asylum

I should also stat that it depended on where we were at on the field. I'll admit I never went for it on 4th down inside our own territory, except if we were desperately in need of a score because time was running out.

 

[milani]

I think more than anything, the Packers going for it on 4th down as opposed to kicking the field goal is more so about LaFleur trying to ignite the offense as opposed to a lack of faith in Crosby.

And I think Rodgers subliminally lobbies his coaches for it. I believe MM was a little more stubborn in those situations or should I say conservative.

 

[Schultz]

I certainly hope Matt LaFleur isn’t making decisions due to pressure from the fans. For the record, I highly doubt this is the case.

Agreed. Now pressure from Rodgers since the TB NFC Championship game I believe is a real thing

 

[Mondio]

Everybody on offense wants to go for it, on every team. Show me an offensive player that doesn’t want to run any extra offensive play they can and I’m cutting him.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I think more than anything, the Packers going for it on 4th down as opposed to kicking the field goal is more so about LaFleur trying to ignite the offense as opposed to a lack of faith in Crosby.

Do you honestly believe that MLF is that much more aggressive than the average coach in the league that he decides to kick the field goal on only 36.8% in those situations compared to an average of 63.9% for the rest of the league.

Again, you made a statement of your opinion, that you can't prove to be true. Unless, of course you can show me quotes of coaches saying they can't rely on Crosby on 40+ yd. kicks, so they prefer going for it on 4th down. Until you show me those quotes or I can find them, you are just trying to use a random stat, to make a very big assumption.

Unlike you I can support my opinion with stats. You might not agree with my conclusion but it's better than you arguing that Crosby isn't to blame for anything.

I responded to you or another poster on this. Go find it. Alexander was listed on page 2 of PFF grades for CB's. I do not get the full stats, since I am not a subscriber, but given the way they list the top guys on page 1, I assume his overall ranking is nowhere near top 10. You brought up ONE stat...QBR ranking against Alexander. Which you said he is 8th in. Big deal, overall his play this season has not warranted him being paid as the best CB in the NFL.

You might want to read post #164 in this thread once again. PFF doesn't have players ranked according to their grades for visitors who don't have a subscription.

Actually, Alexander is currently their 11th best graded cornerback this season.

Seems to me that the metrics have changed a bit on "going for it on 4th down." I have seen more of it than in the past. Also, not just when it is in the red zone or even between the opponents 30-40 yard line. Coaches are going for it on their own side of the 50. Has nothing to do with their confidence or lack of for their kicker or punter and everything to do with feeling confident about the offense being able to pick up the first down.

Once again, how do you explain MLF going for it on a significantly higher percentage than the average coach in the NFL though???

All the coaches that have gone through Green Bay since Crosby was signed, and the GMs as well, must be pretty darned stupid. Imagine. Keeping this loser as a kicker all these years. How dare they!

All of you criticize the front office and coaching staff for holding on to some players and coaches far too long but when it comes to Crosby all of them are suddenly impeccable???

 

[Voyageur]

Do you honestly believe that MLF is that much more aggressive than the average coach in the league that he decides to kick the field goal on only 36.8% in those situations compared to an average of 63.9% for the rest of the league.



Unlike you I can support my opinion with stats. You might not agree with my conclusion but it's better than you arguing that Crosby isn't to blame for anything.



You might want to read post #164 in this thread once again. PFF doesn't have players ranked according to their grades for visitors who don't have a subscription.

Actually, Alexander is currently their 11th best graded cornerback this season.



Once again, how do you explain MLF going for it on a significantly higher percentage than the average coach in the NFL though???



All of you criticize the front office and coaching staff for holding on to some players and coaches far too long but when it comes to Crosby all of them are suddenly impeccable???

Sorry! I would judge each case on it's own merit. I don't recall complaining about how they held on to someone too long.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Sorry! I would judge each case on it's own merit. I don't recall complaining about how they held on to someone too long.

Really? You never complained about the team holding on to Capers too long? Or Drayton last season for that matter? Exercising the fifth year option on Savage? Barry's scheme for most of this year? Bisaccia not moving on from Amari as the returner earlier?

There are a ton of other examples for you and other criticizing the front office and/or the coaching staff but for some reason nothing of that applies to Crosby.

 

[Voyageur]

Really??? You never complained about the team holding on to Capers too long??? Or Drayton last season for that matter??

This has zero to do with players. Drayton was worthless. I said from the start, he should have never been given the job. Of course I was saying that about a string of guys holding the same job. As for Capers, I never liked him from the start. I felt he kept trying to put round pegs in square holes, and wasn't capable of adjusting his defense to the players he had available. These are coaches, not players. A big difference here.

And, for your edification, I'm not enthralled by any player on the team. They're hired to do a job, and paid quite well for it. If I believe they're failing, I'm more than willing to see them go, replaced by someone who can do that job better. If I thought Crosby was a failure, I'd say so.

I'm certainly glad you're not coaching the Packers. We'd be cutting people for "statistical reasons," not the reality of how well they play the game.

I'm always reminded of Eddie George. His career stats show he averaged 3.6 yards per carry. Obviously not very good by statistical standards. Should have been cut early on. Yet, here we are, with him having amassed over 10,000 yards in the NFL, and considered one of the better running backs in his time.

Nowhere in his stats does it show how he was a steady runner, who made key yardage on the ground, when his team needed it, and was dependable in those specific circumstances.

In other words, his entire career would have been scrapped if he had been judged by stats.

But, that doesn't mean I don't believe in stats. I think they're important. But they aren't the whole answer like you're trying to push.

 

[milani]

Do you honestly believe that MLF is that much more aggressive than the average coach in the league that he decides to kick the field goal on only 36.8% in those situations compared to an average of 63.9% for the rest of the league.



Unlike you I can support my opinion with stats. You might not agree with my conclusion but it's better than you arguing that Crosby isn't to blame for anything.



You might want to read post #164 in this thread once again. PFF doesn't have players ranked according to their grades for visitors who don't have a subscription.

Actually, Alexander is currently their 11th best graded cornerback this season.



Once again, how do you explain MLF going for it on a significantly higher percentage than the average coach in the NFL though???



All of you criticize the front office and coaching staff for holding on to some players and coaches far too long but when it comes to Crosby all of them are suddenly impeccable???

Might be a good idea since Crosby played for 2 coaches now in his tenure to check the number of times GB has opted to go for it rather than punt or place kick from inside the opponent's 40-30 between both coaches and evaluate from there. We must take into account playing indoors and outdoors as well.