Steelers 2017 studs and duds

Pokerbrat2000

Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
33,680
Reaction score
8,914
Location
Madison, WI
Dom has a track record, brilliant initial success and then things start to go downhill. See his tenure in Carolina, the guy fielded a top ten defense with an expansion team and then in year 2 I think it was the number 2 scoring defense in the league, who does that? The equally baffling part is how his defense turned to crap the year after their NFCG appearance in Lambeau. If you want to take a bottom feeder defense and turned it around Dom is a miracle worker, but if he's there for more than 2-3 years things will turn ugly.

If you are asking me to guess, I would say predictability. Teams have become very familiar with the schemes the Packers run. Also, possibly players buy into it right away and perform better. I am not convinced that players like Clay Matthews, Perry, Dix, Randall are playing their best football under Dom. Bring in a young energetic DC, with some new schemes and energy and watch what happens.
 

Cornelius Weems

Cheesehead
Joined
Oct 22, 2017
Messages
2,237
Reaction score
741
I wish I could believe that it will even matter as far as Capers is concerned.... it was another loss... but until something finallly happens ... Capers seems untouchable....
Capers is a bad DC and definitely needs to go. I'm not convinced BH should be a starter, after his last game there was nowhere to go but up. He took a step forward, but after 3+ very bad games? Let's not forget before his last game he had 2 TDs and 7 INTs. And still is not completing 60% of his passes.
 

PikeBadger

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
6,693
Reaction score
1,971
Capers is a bad DC and definitely needs to go. I'm not convinced BH should be a starter, after his last game there was nowhere to go but up. He took a step forward, but after 3+ very bad games? Let's not forget before his last game he had 2 TDs and 7 INTs. And still is not completing 60% of his passes.
He’s also at the very beginning of his playing career. I’m not saying Hundley is a future hall of famer but the position he plays is one that takes some time to master. The guy is still working through the learning curve.
 

Mondio

Cheesehead
Joined
Dec 20, 2014
Messages
15,893
Reaction score
3,797
He’s also at the very beginning of his playing career. I’m not saying Hundley is a future hall of famer but the position he plays is one that takes some time to master. The guy is still working through the learning curve.
Exactly, this is what is going to define if Hundley stays in the league or doesn't. He has the tools to play the game physically, but he has to go thru a learning phase. To save the season it needed to be shorter and less steep than what it has been for him, but it's different for everyone. it's unfortunate for our season, but sometimes these are things that just have to happen and they're rather unpredictable how an individual player is going to learn and react to every scenario in a live NFL game. And please, nobody mistake the mistake of thinking i'm comparing the two in any other way than early career stats aren't always indicative of future success, but Peyton Manning had 3 TD's and 11 INT's his first 4 games. It's a tough position. There's a lot to process. He showed some growth the last game, now the question is to see if he can sustain or take another step. My guess is there are still going to be rough patches. But if he keeps getting up and working, he has the physical tools to make it. I hope he does and it doesn't even matter if it's soon enough to save our playoff hopes. To see a kid struggle like he has and then come thru the other side? well it's probably one of the most important lessons one could ever hope to learn from sports.
 

Sunshinepacker

Cheesehead
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
5,810
Reaction score
930
I'm glad you did not imply that because I did not say it.

The fact is C-D is under contract for next season and Burnett is not. I gave Burnett my Packer defensive MVP award last season; this year he's been in and out with injuries. He'll be 29 years old next year.

I think he's got a couple of decent years left. I would expect the Packers to try to sign him to a short term deal, maybe two years. If somebody offers more the Packers are not going to go overboard to match. And as I mentioned, they did draft Jones, a guy who fits the safety/ILB swing mode, and I don't think that pick and Burnett's pending free agency and age is mere coincidence.

As for the future of one player in a position group being tied to another, if one does not believe some thought is given to the allocation of cap to position groups one would be mistaken. Around these parts, expense has not been spared on QB, WR, OT, OLB. Other groups seem to be on a budget.

My apologies if I offended you, I tried to reiterate that you had not implied something to ensure that there were no issues.

As for the 29 years old thing, I REALLY wish that nobody had ever discovered the 30yr old RB thing because that's suddenly become a magical age for every other position in football (except QB). I would have zero problems with the Packers signing Burnett to a five year deal that paid him as a decent safety. If one considered a position group to be interchangeable then one would be a terrible GM and one should not have one's job. No decent GM looks at a team with a good strong safety and then says, "Well that means we can skimp on free safety". Good GMs pay good players and avoid overpaying the mediocre players.
 

Pokerbrat2000

Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
33,680
Reaction score
8,914
Location
Madison, WI
Exactly, this is what is going to define if Hundley stays in the league or doesn't. He has the tools to play the game physically, but he has to go thru a learning phase. To save the season it needed to be shorter and less steep than what it has been for him, but it's different for everyone. it's unfortunate for our season, but sometimes these are things that just have to happen and they're rather unpredictable how an individual player is going to learn and react to every scenario in a live NFL game. And please, nobody mistake the mistake of thinking i'm comparing the two in any other way than early career stats aren't always indicative of future success, but Peyton Manning had 3 TD's and 11 INT's his first 4 games. It's a tough position. There's a lot to process. He showed some growth the last game, now the question is to see if he can sustain or take another step. My guess is there are still going to be rough patches. But if he keeps getting up and working, he has the physical tools to make it. I hope he does and it doesn't even matter if it's soon enough to save our playoff hopes. To see a kid struggle like he has and then come thru the other side? well it's probably one of the most important lessons one could ever hope to learn from sports.

Pretty much how I have viewed Hundley with the Packers. That being said, if you are a GM do you have a guy like Hundley (pre-experience) as your #2 on a team that has a realistic shot at a Super Bowl? Basically, did TT learn a lesson here? Obviously, if Hundley keeps improving, he will be an awesome #2 QB for 2018. But what do you do with him and the #2 spot after that? I doubt the Packers will be able to justify keeping him either way. If he sucks, why keep him, if he keeps shining, how do you keep him?

As you said, it is unfortunate for the Packers and their fans that this season will probably go down as one that was wasted but gave Hundley the opportunity to hone his craft, which could end up providing the Packers with a decent trade value, but I would have gladly exchanged that for having a guy who was better prepared to step in at QB and possibly could have kept the season alive.
 

easyk83

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
2,783
Reaction score
280
He’s also at the very beginning of his playing career. I’m not saying Hundley is a future hall of famer but the position he plays is one that takes some time to master. The guy is still working through the learning curve.

You have to expect a learning curve and IMO MM was probably too careful with him the first three games and should have let Brett throw it around more. Let's see i he can take Sunday night's play into next week and beyond.
 

easyk83

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
2,783
Reaction score
280
If you are asking me to guess, I would say predictability. Teams have become very familiar with the schemes the Packers run. Also, possibly players buy into it right away and perform better. I am not convinced that players like Clay Matthews, Perry, Dix, Randall are playing their best football under Dom. Bring in a young energetic DC, with some new schemes and energy and watch what happens.

My impression is that as he's in place he keeps installing more and more concepts reads and checks and the scheme becomes too heavy for players to execute it. The Capers' scheme is too complicated narrative would help explain why his defenses often short circuit in big moments, hard to execute in the best of times and a cluster**** when games are on the line. it would also explain why A) young players don't seem to develop in his scheme, B) why players have gone elsewhere and played better and C) why his initial success turns into mediocrity and then failure. When he starts out he has to keep things simple which allows players to play fast. But sooner or later his iteration of the blitzburg D starts to look like a Chinese fire drill.
 

Pokerbrat2000

Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
33,680
Reaction score
8,914
Location
Madison, WI
Stud: Well apparently Jason Spriggs played pretty well. The kid has the ability and then some but he's had some trouble with consistency. BTW that club move from behind was just ridiculous and downright beastly.

http://www.packers.com/media-center/videos/Rock-Report-Attitude--Ability/3098e26f-5da6-47ca-8de2-f194a815abab?campaign=sf174778404_FB_C-Content-GB_CT-The Rock Report-GB_sf174778404&sf174778404=1

Thanks for sharing that. I saw him whiff once during the game, so it was nice to see him do some good things. I would be happy to eat a big plate of Crow if Spriggs turns into our starting RT. Seems like Bulaga can't stay healthy, so for 2018, they are definitely going to need someone to either start or be really ready to have to step in.
 

Mondio

Cheesehead
Joined
Dec 20, 2014
Messages
15,893
Reaction score
3,797
Pretty much how I have viewed Hundley with the Packers. That being said, if you are a GM do you have a guy like Hundley (pre-experience) as your #2 on a team that has a realistic shot at a Super Bowl? Basically, did TT learn a lesson here? Obviously, if Hundley keeps improving, he will be an awesome #2 QB for 2018. But what do you do with him and the #2 spot after that? I doubt the Packers will be able to justify keeping him either way. If he sucks, why keep him, if he keeps shining, how do you keep him?

As you said, it is unfortunate for the Packers and their fans that this season will probably go down as one that was wasted but gave Hundley the opportunity to hone his craft, which could end up providing the Packers with a decent trade value, but I would have gladly exchanged that for having a guy who was better prepared to step in at QB and possibly could have kept the season alive.
and it sounds nice in theory, but I look at a list of experienced vets that were available and they either cost quite a bit or they do not have the skills passing or moving that Hundley has or worse yet they were more expensive and have less skills. I will never argue that having a guy that can step right in and run the offense is a bad thing, but neither way guarantees anything.

If Hundley proves to be a capable back up and if he limits his mistakes there's a chance he's better than just a good back up at this point, does that make TT and MM wrong because it took a few games of experience? There's only so much you can do and teach in practice. and seeing him drop back and throw the ball, I have no doubt he's looked impressive as heck in practice. You just can't simulate real pressure and everyone adapts differently. Keenum is having a decent year, that's 1 FA back up qb out of how many this year? and he's no different. I think if you put him on a team that doesn't have as strong of a defense and he's under pressure to perform every week, we'd be seeing a lot different keenum than we are. I still go look at that list from this year and see guy after guy that has shown they can fail under all sorts of circumstances and they had to learn another offense.
 

easyk83

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
2,783
Reaction score
280
and it sounds nice in theory, but I look at a list of experienced vets that were available and they either cost quite a bit or they do not have the skills passing or moving that Hundley has or worse yet they were more expensive and have less skills. I will never argue that having a guy that can step right in and run the offense is a bad thing, but neither way guarantees anything.

If Hundley proves to be a capable back up and if he limits his mistakes there's a chance he's better than just a good back up at this point, does that make TT and MM wrong because it took a few games of experience? There's only so much you can do and teach in practice. and seeing him drop back and throw the ball, I have no doubt he's looked impressive as heck in practice. You just can't simulate real pressure and everyone adapts differently. Keenum is having a decent year, that's 1 FA back up qb out of how many this year? and he's no different. I think if you put him on a team that doesn't have as strong of a defense and he's under pressure to perform every week, we'd be seeing a lot different keenum than we are. I still go look at that list from this year and see guy after guy that has shown they can fail under all sorts of circumstances and they had to learn another offense.

Hopefully this turns into a year of reckoning, this is not a super bowl team even with Rodgers, not with that defense. Even if Hundley had a rough start if he keeps playing like he did Sunday night and finishes strong he will turn into a nice draft pick for us.
 

Pokerbrat2000

Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
33,680
Reaction score
8,914
Location
Madison, WI
and it sounds nice in theory, but I look at a list of experienced vets that were available and they either cost quite a bit or they do not have the skills passing or moving that Hundley has or worse yet they were more expensive and have less skills. I will never argue that having a guy that can step right in and run the offense is a bad thing, but neither way guarantees anything.

If Hundley proves to be a capable back up and if he limits his mistakes there's a chance he's better than just a good back up at this point, does that make TT and MM wrong because it took a few games of experience? There's only so much you can do and teach in practice. and seeing him drop back and throw the ball, I have no doubt he's looked impressive as heck in practice. You just can't simulate real pressure and everyone adapts differently. Keenum is having a decent year, that's 1 FA back up qb out of how many this year? and he's no different. I think if you put him on a team that doesn't have as strong of a defense and he's under pressure to perform every week, we'd be seeing a lot different keenum than we are. I still go look at that list from this year and see guy after guy that has shown they can fail under all sorts of circumstances and they had to learn another offense.

After watching what has happened since Rodgers went down, if you are the GM of the Packers and you have #12 as your QB in 2019, do you have Joe Callahan as your #2, a rookie you picked up in the 2018 draft that looked great in preseason or spend a little extra and sign that journey man vet with experience?

I hear what you are saying that nothing is a guarantee, but given the amount of cap space we seem to have each year, I would be fine with spending some of it on a possible insurance policy that may or may not be needed or even pay out if it is. How many QB's with little or no experience in "real" games step right in and do well? For some reason, I think the Packers thought they had one of the few who might in Hundley.
 

easyk83

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
2,783
Reaction score
280
After watching what has happened since Rodgers went down, if you are the GM of the Packers and you have #12 as your QB in 2019, do you have Joe Callahan as your #2, a rookie you picked up in the 2018 draft that looked great in preseason or spend a little extra and sign that journey man vet with experience?

I hear what you are saying that nothing is a guarantee, but given the amount of cap space we seem to have each year, I would be fine with spending some of it on a possible insurance policy that may or may not be needed or even pay out if it is. How many QB's with little or no experience in "real" games step right in and do well? For some reason, I think the Packers thought they had one of the few who might in Hundley.

Well we're not winning anything without Rodgers so I'd say go all in and try to surround him with enough talent to compete for a Lombardi. Honestly our Oline and running game are showing some potential going into next season, we should look to be the kind of team that really can ground and pound and play good defense if Rodgers does go down for any length of time. So I'm opposed to trying to get a quality backup if doing so comes at the expense of other parts of this team.
 

Cornelius Weems

Cheesehead
Joined
Oct 22, 2017
Messages
2,237
Reaction score
741
I give up. People were calling for BH's head last week and we're saying he's a terrible QB, but now a bunch are saying of course he looked bad before, but he's improving. One person even compared him to Peyton Manning for christsakes. Face it, his completion percentage is not improving. The defense is also not getting any better, but I honestly don't think BH should be starting QB. Let's not forget he has never won at home game and he has our only home shutout in 10 years. Take into account that his only victory was against a rookie QB. He may be new to starting, but he's not a rookie like PM. Let's not forget that MM stated that he had 3 years invested in him. One game does not make him suddenly competent. Sorry, it seems like I'm ranting. Maybe this season is just ticking me off. I just want this season to turn out good for us.
 

Mondio

Cheesehead
Joined
Dec 20, 2014
Messages
15,893
Reaction score
3,797
I give up. People were calling for BH's head last week and we're saying he's a terrible QB, but now a bunch are saying of course he looked bad before, but he's improving. One person even compared him to Peyton Manning for christsakes. Face it, his completion percentage is not improving. The defense is also not getting any better, but I honestly don't think BH should be starting QB. Let's not forget he has never won at home game and he has our only home shutout in 10 years. Take into account that his only victory was against a rookie QB. He may be new to starting, but he's not a rookie like PM. Let's not forget that MM stated that he had 3 years invested in him. One game does not make him suddenly competent. Sorry, it seems like I'm ranting. Maybe this season is just ticking me off. I just want this season to turn out good for us.
Despite the intentional and obvious effort to prevent people from drawing the conclusion that I was even remotely comparing Hundley to Manning, someone goes and does it anyway LOL Congrats buddy, you're winning . don't give up now LOL
 

PikeBadger

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
6,693
Reaction score
1,971
Pretty much how I have viewed Hundley with the Packers. That being said, if you are a GM do you have a guy like Hundley (pre-experience) as your #2 on a team that has a realistic shot at a Super Bowl? Basically, did TT learn a lesson here? Obviously, if Hundley keeps improving, he will be an awesome #2 QB for 2018. But what do you do with him and the #2 spot after that? I doubt the Packers will be able to justify keeping him either way. If he sucks, why keep him, if he keeps shining, how do you keep him?

As you said, it is unfortunate for the Packers and their fans that this season will probably go down as one that was wasted but gave Hundley the opportunity to hone his craft, which could end up providing the Packers with a decent trade value, but I would have gladly exchanged that for having a guy who was better prepared to step in at QB and possibly could have kept the season alive.
In that case, there’s no point in ever drafting a QB, just pickup the retreads and proven failures that other teams have groomed.
 

easyk83

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
2,783
Reaction score
280
Thanks for sharing that. I saw him whiff once during the game, so it was nice to see him do some good things. I would be happy to eat a big plate of Crow if Spriggs turns into our starting RT. Seems like Bulaga can't stay healthy, so for 2018, they are definitely going to need someone to either start or be really ready to have to step in.

Adams sucked his second year, so did Randall and well maybe now it's Spriggs who struggled up until an injury put him down for a while. Sometimes players struggle with the increased expectations and workload, they hit bottom and then they bounce back the following year. Of course typically you want first and second round picks to be more accountable from jump street. Then again in the case of Spriggs and Randall we drafted more for upside and potential than finish. So some hiccups and missteps should have been expected. Picking where we were picking either go with the high upside low floor guy or grab a high production limited athlete type who might be ready to start on day 1 but will never be more than a JAG.
 

Pokerbrat2000

Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
33,680
Reaction score
8,914
Location
Madison, WI
In that case, there’s no point in ever drafting a QB, just pickup the retreads and proven failures that other teams have groomed.

Why is the assumption by some that a veteran QB, who no longer is a starter, is a retread and a proven failure? Just because he failed or didn't do so well in one system?

There are many reasons to draft a QB
  1. Future starter: This was why AR was drafted. My jaw dropped when AR was drafted. I though Favre was going to be there for a long time. TT and Co. knew different.
  2. Future Trade bait: I believe this was why Brett Hundley was drafted. He wasn't drafted to beat out AR.
  3. Future Backup: Groom a guy on the PS or your #3, give him a lot of preseason work and see if he can be a legit #2.
The better question to ask, is what do you want out of your #2? Are you a team with Super Bowl aspirations and if your #1 goes down, how much do you lose with playing your #2? I don't think the Vikings would be sitting where they are today if Brett Hundley had been their #2 to start the season.

If you are a team that is rebuilding and you don't have a FHOF QB, then drafting a few guys like Hundley makes sense to me. One of them might turn out to be your FHOF QB with some work.
 
H

HardRightEdge

Guest
My apologies if I offended you, I tried to reiterate that you had not implied something to ensure that there were no issues.

As for the 29 years old thing, I REALLY wish that nobody had ever discovered the 30yr old RB thing because that's suddenly become a magical age for every other position in football (except QB). I would have zero problems with the Packers signing Burnett to a five year deal that paid him as a decent safety. If one considered a position group to be interchangeable then one would be a terrible GM and one should not have one's job. No decent GM looks at a team with a good strong safety and then says, "Well that means we can skimp on free safety". Good GMs pay good players and avoid overpaying the mediocre players.
No offense taken. That comment was for point of emphasis.

30 years is old for a running back. That's 8 or 9 years of NFL mileage. Few are still around at that point and fewer yet are still productive enough to start. Even without a major injury by that point, which is rare in itself, the cumulative beatings take it out of them. If you get your money's worth out of a second contract running back you're doing well. I'd put 27-28 as the default cut off after which great care should be taken, though that would vary based on performance, injury history and the volume of touches over college and pro careers. But really, how may Petersons or McCoys are there? Few and far between.

I believe other positions need to be looked at closely at the 30 mark, the third contract, with the exception of QBs, and OLs whose knees are intact.

The idea of signing a SS to a 4 year deal who will be 34 at the end of the last season, especially given the missed games that have been racked up over the last 3 seasons, is questionable. You'd need a home team discount.
 

Pokerbrat2000

Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
33,680
Reaction score
8,914
Location
Madison, WI
I'm not ready to declare Spriggs a success, Don Barclay and Jeff Janis tainted me for doing that. :) But I am happy that he showed progress.
 

Cornelius Weems

Cheesehead
Joined
Oct 22, 2017
Messages
2,237
Reaction score
741
I'm
Despite the intentional and obvious effort to prevent people from drawing the conclusion that I was even remotely comparing Hundley to Manning, someone goes and does it anyway LOL Congrats buddy, you're winning . don't give up now LOL
Okay, you posted something about PM's stats for his first 4 games in a direct comparison to BH's start, but you weren't comparing the two? Whatever, not worth the argument. I was stating NOT to become a believer after 1 good start. I personally (maybe not everyone's opinion, and that's fine) believe he will have more bad starts. I hope he won't because outside of a few matchups, the competition is lacking. I have no delusions about this team. The defense is lacking and our running game is hit or miss (miss most of the time). BH's home stats are really bad, not to mention his last home game was full of turnovers and a shutout.
 

Mondio

Cheesehead
Joined
Dec 20, 2014
Messages
15,893
Reaction score
3,797
I'm

Okay, you posted something about PM's stats for his first 4 games in a direct comparison to BH's start, but you weren't comparing the two? Whatever, not worth the argument. I was stating NOT to become a believer after 1 good start. I personally (maybe not everyone's opinion, and that's fine) believe he will have more bad starts. I hope he won't because outside of a few matchups, the competition is lacking. I have no delusions about this team. The defense is lacking and our running game is hit or miss (miss most of the time). BH's home stats are really bad, not to mention his last home game was full of turnovers and a shutout.
And please, nobody mistake the mistake of thinking i'm comparing the two in any other way than early career stats aren't always indicative of future success,

Help me learn, how could I have made my point any more clear?
 

PikeBadger

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
6,693
Reaction score
1,971
My apologies if I offended you, I tried to reiterate that you had not implied something to ensure that there were no issues.

As for the 29 years old thing, I REALLY wish that nobody had ever discovered the 30yr old RB thing because that's suddenly become a magical age for every other position in football (except QB). I would have zero problems with the Packers signing Burnett to a five year deal that paid him as a decent safety. If one considered a position group to be interchangeable then one would be a terrible GM and one should not have one's job. No decent GM looks at a team with a good strong safety and then says, "Well that means we can skimp on free safety". Good GMs pay good players and avoid overpaying the mediocre players.
I think it would be a bad idea to sign Burnett to a 5 year contract. I think it’s likely the team moves forward with Jones (who I think is the next Burnett and was drafted to replace Burnett), Dix and Brice next year. I expect either a ball hawking free safety to be drafted, picked up in free agency or Randall moved there (which would be coupled with a couple more CB’s to be drafted). That is what I am expecting to see.
 

Members online

No members online now.

Latest posts

Top