The offense must run through Jones and Dillon

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The reason I bring up Lombardi, as one of those coaches is because of his start in GB. In 1958, the Packers were 1-10-1. In the 1959 draft, the only player they got that would be a large help in 1959 was Boyd Dowler. Deral Teteak did provide some firepower as well, but Dowler was the only major addition. Being able to make the offense and defense work, with the players available, was a matter of tweaking both in a way to expose the skills they had available. It worked. They were 7-5 in '59, and missed the championship chance by one game. From there on in, they were amazing. Same players, system modified to meet their talents, and success.

Good coaches make things happen.
I agree wholeheartedly. Great level coaching is more important than hitting on any 1 great player in the draft. We obviously have a terrific RB coach in Ben Sirmans. It’s no coincidence that he coached RB’s at B.C. For 5 seasons. Imo he was indirectly involved in the eventual selection of Dillon.
 
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Heyjoe4

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Thankfully, there is a salary cap. Without it, the Packers might not still be around and if they were, they would probably look more like the 70's to mid 90's Packers. I think Gute and Ball did a pretty good job with the cap. However, with success, comes having to pay for it. With Rodgers salary, as well as Bahk's salary and injury, and a lot of money thrown at the top defensive players, they got handcuffed to a top heavy salary structure. Gute did what a good GM does, he kept beating the bushes for ascending Free agents or other teams PS guys and made things work. 2024 will open up some Cap space and I think we will see Gute once again dip into the top tier of free agents.
Good point. Football in Green Bay, WI in the 21st century is impossible without the cap, and hey, it makes the NFL interesting.

Gluten has done a good job of finding veterans who have made an impact. Campbell and Douglas come to mind, and when he did have cap, he brought in the Smiths, Turner, and Amos.

The team will need him to do more of that not too far down the road.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Gluten has done a good job of finding veterans who have made an impact. Campbell and Douglas come to mind, and when he did have cap, he brought in the Smiths, Turner, and Amos.

The team will need him to do more of that not too far down the road.
Agreed and besides not really having the cap space to spend this season, I think it was a good idea to hold off on signing any big names until a lot of these young guys get to show what they have, in a season that I don't think is a SB one. What needs might the Packers have in 2024? Could be at QB, maybe WR, OL, DB's, ILB, DL? Or maybe, the current guys at some or all of those positions eliminate or lesson the need. Across the board (positions), I am excited to see certain guys play and think there is definitely the potential, at each position group, to be in really good shape.
 

Voyageur

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Excellent discussion. Everyone has brought so much into the conversation. The way things have to mesh, to make a team a winner, is amazing. The sad part about it is that no matter how well you work the details out, the darned injury bug can wipe out all the potential, in one play.

Such it is with football.
 

Heyjoe4

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Excellent discussion. Everyone has brought so much into the conversation. The way things have to mesh, to make a team a winner, is amazing. The sad part about it is that no matter how well you work the details out, the darned injury bug can wipe out all the potential, in one play.

Such it is with football.
Ever present injuries in this violent sport. Can make or break a season in one play.

I did like Poker's comment that there is potential at every position group. Some combination of coaching, game planning, and player execution will likely reveal a few groups with a promising future. That's all we can ask.
 
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Excellent discussion. Everyone has brought so much into the conversation. The way things have to mesh, to make a team a winner, is amazing. The sad part about it is that no matter how well you work the details out, the darned injury bug can wipe out all the potential, in one play.

Such it is with football.
The Global argument for myself comes down to player Vs team philosophy. I’ll start by offering that I agree that having a Great QB is super important. However, if by having that great QB means you suffer across the rest of the organization and it leaves you on an immovable plateau? Time to move on to plan B.
 

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Those drops are more serious, considering that Love's going to spend most of his time dumping passes too them, either intentionally, or as safety valves. He's not going to be using his deeper routes early on, opting for what he may think is safer passes. No matter how much he fights the urge, he's going to use them far beyond what he should.

Don't blame Love for doing it. It's in the nature of QBs. They're more concerned about making mistakes early on in their careers, and have a fear of opening it up, because of failure.

Our RBs are going to be taking some hits, in both the running and passing game.
 

gopkrs

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Those drops are more serious, considering that Love's going to spend most of his time dumping passes too them, either intentionally, or as safety valves. He's not going to be using his deeper routes early on, opting for what he may think is safer passes. No matter how much he fights the urge, he's going to use them far beyond what he should.

Don't blame Love for doing it. It's in the nature of QBs. They're more concerned about making mistakes early on in their careers, and have a fear of opening it up, because of failure.

Our RBs are going to be taking some hits, in both the running and passing game.
I don't think he'll be using the RBs more than normal unless we get easy yardage, and I think he has to show he can throw it deep right from the start.
 

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I don't think he'll be using the RBs more than normal unless we get easy yardage, and I think he has to show he can throw it deep right from the start.
exactly, until this offensive line shows it can hold protection and WR's show they can consistently get open down field and catch the ball, I don't foresee defenses all of a sudden playing Love like he's better than Rodgers. They knew this team couldn't protect long enough for the deep ball to matter before, why are they suddenly going to now? They're going to play everything down field and attack the LOS until this team shows it can #1 protect, and #2, get behind a defense and hit big plays. Until then, it's going to be tough sledding.

Having 2 guys on the left round into some resemblance of health to close out the year should help, but they still have to get it done up front or it's not going to go anywhere else consistently anyway.
 
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I think some Packer fans are going to be surprised at how quickly opponents get burned for big chunks in 2023. It won’t take long before we get a quick strike TD or 2. I actually welcome opponents to get semi-arrogant though. I think we can pick up +1 or +2 Wins over opponent Defenses underestimating our passing game and increasing our poor playoff odds(+-7.5 Wins)
+2 Differential is likely playoff bound, it’s exactly what we need to get an early kick start in what is a semi rebuild. I’m not sure we can get there (9.5) Wins on our own though. We’ll need help from opponents to overcompensate on D early in 2023 and our O will need to capitalize and steal a W or two that was in our Loss column.
 
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Heyjoe4

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I don't think he'll be using the RBs more than normal unless we get easy yardage, and I think he has to show he can throw it deep right from the start.
Mostly agree. With a guy like Watson, Love will have to complete deep passes. And unlike a true rookie, I don't think he gets any honeymoon here. He's been around 3 years and should be able to execute the entire game plan.

Now MLF may give him a game or two to build his confidence - so shorter passes and screens with an occasional deep toss. As we saw last year, Watson can beat CBs just with speed under the right circumstances. Love needs to make those throws, and Watson needs to catch them.

But yeah, overall I agree that Love needs to execute quickly and accurately.
 

Heyjoe4

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Those drops are more serious, considering that Love's going to spend most of his time dumping passes too them, either intentionally, or as safety valves. He's not going to be using his deeper routes early on, opting for what he may think is safer passes. No matter how much he fights the urge, he's going to use them far beyond what he should.

Don't blame Love for doing it. It's in the nature of QBs. They're more concerned about making mistakes early on in their careers, and have a fear of opening it up, because of failure.

Our RBs are going to be taking some hits, in both the running and passing game.
I do agree, and gopkrs makes a good point about executing quickly. Sure MLF can create a game plan for the first game or two to build Love's confidence. After three years with the game plan, any honeymoon will be short.

As for the RBs catching balls, I guess I never noticed many drops. But they will be key targets and safety valves for Love. And yeah, they're gonna take some hits. Couldn't pay me enough to be a RB in the NFL (and at my age, I doubt I'd get many offers.......).
 
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Love will also be far more mobile than Rodgers. I'm not saying he's Hurts or Jackson, but a few well-placed runs (planned or unplanned) will do a lot to keep a defense honest.

Defenses will sell out to stop the Packers' rushing offense early in the season. Love will need to make them pay for it by throwing the ball to keep them honest.

Ok
Answer this question.
How many RB duos in NFL history have combined for 5,250 yards from scrimmage in 2 consecutive seasons?

First of all, Jones and Dillon haven't done that so far. So what's the point of asking that question? In addition with a 17th game having been added it might make more sense to reduce that number to 4,500 yards in two 16 games seasons as Jones and Dillon put up 4,798 yards from scrimmage combined in 2021 and '22.

There have been single players who have topped that number in 32 consecutive games. It would take a lot of work to figure out how many duos did it, therefore I will wait until their numbers from the upcoming season are in to compare them to others in league history.

If all stay healthy the Pack had the best 2 back combo in the league last year for combined rushing and receiving yards. This was done quickly. I did not limit myself to run 1st teams.
GB-2492
CLV-2442
DAL-2356
LV- 2284
3 other teams surpassed 2,000 yds.
DET-LAC-N.E.
Due to injury some teams incorporated 3 RBs. SF & SEA were over 2,000 while the 3 back totals for KC were 2216 and Dallas a league leading 2580. Feel free to correct any errors.

I haven't double checked that numbers but I don't understand the point of using running back duos in the first place anyway. There are other teams which use more than two RBs more frequently than the Packers for various reasons and have put up better numbers than the Packers in the past. I don't think that's any worse than doing it with only two players receiving the majority of the snaps though.

It’s kinda ironic..that approach. The same thing that “got us in” this predicament? is the same thing that could “get us out”. Even on Defense that LVN selection was very strategic. If for any reason Gary leaves… we’ve got his direct replacement.

It wouldn't be smart to let Gary walk away. Period.

The Bengals, Eagles, Chargers, and probably more have excelled at least in part by having franchise QBs on rookie deals.

Unfortunately the Packers decided they don't want to take advantage of that for some unknown reason.

I agree wholeheartedly. Great level coaching is more important than hitting on any 1 great player in the draft. We obviously have a terrific RB coach in Ben Sirmans. It’s no coincidence that he coached RB’s at B.C. For 5 seasons. Imo he was indirectly involved in the eventual selection of Dillon.

Sirmans never coached Dillon at Boston College though. I don't think he was the reason for the team selecting him.
 

gopkrs

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Mostly agree. With a guy like Watson, Love will have to complete deep passes. And unlike a true rookie, I don't think he gets any honeymoon here. He's been around 3 years and should be able to execute the entire game plan.

Now MLF may give him a game or two to build his confidence - so shorter passes and screens with an occasional deep toss. As we saw last year, Watson can beat CBs just with speed under the right circumstances. Love needs to make those throws, and Watson needs to catch them.

But yeah, overall I agree that Love needs to execute quickly and accurately.
An occasional deep pass is what the doctor ordered. Rodgers ended up throwing too many deep and many just up for grabs. I'm saying that you don't just shy away from it or DBs can play too tight. But yeah, he has to throw a good deep ball. That's something I'm not sure about yet.
 

Heyjoe4

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An occasional deep pass is what the doctor ordered. Rodgers ended up throwing too many deep and many just up for grabs. I'm saying that you don't just shy away from it or DBs can play too tight. But yeah, he has to throw a good deep ball. That's something I'm not sure about yet.
Rodgers threw way too many deep balls last year to a rookie receiver group. A fast receiver can get behind a good corner now and then, but that wasn't the case last year. And really, those deep balls should be rare. If there is an obvious mismatch and Watson can beat his guy and ideally with poor or no S coverage, it should work.
 

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Rodgers threw way too many deep balls last year to a rookie receiver group. A fast receiver can get behind a good corner now and then, but that wasn't the case last year. And really, those deep balls should be rare. If there is an obvious mismatch and Watson can beat his guy and ideally with poor or no S coverage, it should work.
All the way around, Rodgers had a really off 2022. I think he was near the bottom of the NFL in "long ball stats". He also hasn't thrown for 300+ yards since 10/10/21 against the Bengals and that game went into OT. Was the last Packer road game that I have been to and an interesting win, as well.
 

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Rodgers threw way too many deep balls last year to a rookie receiver group. A fast receiver can get behind a good corner now and then, but that wasn't the case last year. And really, those deep balls should be rare. If there is an obvious mismatch and Watson can beat his guy and ideally with poor or no S coverage, it should work.
I recall many deep balls to Lazard which turned into a better man situation instead of a WR with a step on the DBs.
 

Heyjoe4

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I recall many deep balls to Lazard which turned into a better man situation instead of a WR with a step on the DBs.
Good point. With a good receiver, a QB can throw the ball in the area of the receiver on a deep route with the thinking "my guy can beat your guy." It doesn't have to be an artistic, pinpoint throw. In that case, the receiver really makes the play.

Lazard was a pretty good receiver. As I recall, he won his share of contested catches. I don't remember a lot of long balls going his way. Then again, Rodgers was routinely overthrowing guys last year.
 

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Good point. With a good receiver, a QB can throw the ball in the area of the receiver on a deep route with the thinking "my guy can beat your guy." It doesn't have to be an artistic, pinpoint throw. In that case, the receiver really makes the play.

Lazard was a pretty good receiver. As I recall, he won his share of contested catches. I don't remember a lot of long balls going his way. Then again, Rodgers was routinely overthrowing guys last year.
My point was I don't think Lazard was the best deep ball choice because of his lack of field stretching speed. DA17 had the same issue but excelled with the back shoulder instead.
 

Voyageur

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Good point. With a good receiver, a QB can throw the ball in the area of the receiver on a deep route with the thinking "my guy can beat your guy." It doesn't have to be an artistic, pinpoint throw. In that case, the receiver really makes the play.

Lazard was a pretty good receiver. As I recall, he won his share of contested catches. I don't remember a lot of long balls going his way. Then again, Rodgers was routinely overthrowing guys last year.
Which is exactly why I say that Love won't be throwing those longer timing routes early in the season. He's going to opt down to safety valve throws, until after he's convinced himself that they'll be where they should be, when they should be. Even the long breakaway speed throw is a timed throw, where you expect the receiver to be a certain place, breaking containment.

It will be a learning curve for all of them, related to each other, in game conditions, not the same as practice, which is controlled.
 
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Which is exactly why I say that Love won't be throwing those longer timing routes early in the season. He's going to opt down to safety valve throws, until after he's convinced himself that they'll be where they should be, when they should be. Even the long breakaway speed throw is a timed throw, where you expect the receiver to be a certain place, breaking containment.

It will be a learning curve for all of them, related to each other, in game conditions, not the same as practice, which is controlled.
I mostly agree overall. Although at some point Matt will dial up a go route if he perceives a good matchup.
 

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Defenses will sell out to stop the Packers' rushing offense early in the season. Love will need to make them pay for it by throwing the ball to keep them honest.



First of all, Jones and Dillon haven't done that so far. So what's the point of asking that question? In addition with a 17th game having been added it might make more sense to reduce that number to 4,500 yards in two 16 games seasons as Jones and Dillon put up 4,798 yards from scrimmage combined in 2021 and '22.

There have been single players who have topped that number in 32 consecutive games. It would take a lot of work to figure out how many duos did it, therefore I will wait until their numbers from the upcoming season are in to compare them to others in league history.



I haven't double checked that numbers but I don't understand the point of using running back duos in the first place anyway. There are other teams which use more than two RBs more frequently than the Packers for various reasons and have put up better numbers than the Packers in the past. I don't think that's any worse than doing it with only two players receiving the majority of the snaps though.



It wouldn't be smart to let Gary walk away. Period.



Unfortunately the Packers decided they don't want to take advantage of that for some unknown reason.



Sirmans never coached Dillon at Boston College though. I don't think he was the reason for the team selecting him.
I included teams that used 3 backs.
 
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It wouldn't be smart to let Gary walk away. Period
It wouldn’t be smart to let any great player walk away, But unfortunately it happens regardless of our desires or attempts at retaining them.

Which is why having Plan B intact is better than your version of no contingency plan at all. Any player can leave, injure, retire etc.. at any time and failing to plan is not wise, especially at QB, Edge, LT, etc
 
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Which is exactly why I say that Love won't be throwing those longer timing routes early in the season. He's going to opt down to safety valve throws, until after he's convinced himself that they'll be where they should be, when they should be. Even the long breakaway speed throw is a timed throw, where you expect the receiver to be a certain place, breaking containment.

Love will have to throw and complete the occasional deep ball to keep defenses honest early in the season though. Otherwise he will have a tough time completing the short ones as well.

I included teams that used 3 backs.

My point was that you need to include the numbers from all running backs. The Packers ranked fourth in the league in yards from scrimmage from the RBs.

It wouldn’t be smart to let any great player walk away, But unfortunately it happens regardless of our desires or attempts at retaining them.

Which is why having Plan B intact is better than your version of no contingency plan at all. Any player can leave, injure, retire etc.. at any time and failing to plan is not wise, especially at QB, Edge, LT, etc

It's true that having a contingency plan is important. That doesn't change my opinion that they simply can't let Gary walk away next offseason.
 

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