The Jordan Love Era Begins

[Heyjoe4]

I have forwarded to the Pulitzer folks.

Well stated and something I need to keep in mind as well.

Thanks Amish. I don't know about the Pulitzer stuff, but that's high praise for a comment on a sports forum!

 

[mradtke66]

Thank you. You just solidified what I already pretty much knew. The repeated rebuttals to anything positive about Love had to do more with the disappointment of the draft pick. It’s pretty obvious no poster could hate on Love to that extent unless there were more personal reasons behind the motivation. It didn’t fit someone’s personal desires and thus someone else was going to pay for it in pounds of flesh.

I Might add though that going about repeated attempts at diminishing a player over some personal desire shows an gross inability to use discernment and that leads to mischaracterization of Love.
In short form.. it leads to a biased evaluation or prejudicial judgement of a player.

Easy there man. I still don't hate Love, never have. Unlikely I will, unless he does something egregious off the field. I also didn't have an agenda for the draft. I am happy to admit that I don't follow college players close enough to have a good idea of who's good and draft eligible, let alone how they project to the professional game.

I want to stress I am keeping the pick and player separate. I'm annoyed we didn't get game day value in 2020 or 2021. That's it.

As far as Love the player, I hope he's good. I like our players. I've stated the positive of some players that many think are stinkers. I liked Marshall Newhouse (no Chad Clifton, but far better than many realize) and Justin Harrell (the ruptured disk in his back has nothing to do his college injury and a lot to do with an over-enthused lifting coach.)

My person bet is that Love is closer to not-good, not because of anything he has or hasn't shown, but just playing the odds. Many players aren't good, quarterback is harder than most. It's more tempering expectations.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Why not? If Love is good, then it's hats off to Gluten. If he blows then who do we blame?

You "blame" the system. If you want to fire a GM for every time they miss a draft pick, especially a QB, the NFL would be seeing a huge GM turnover each year. Now if the Packers think Gute is doing a poor job with Free agents, drafting in general, trades, retention, etc. (all his duties), then you move on from him. People wanting to elevate or sink Gute because of the Love pick need to take a better look at the big picture.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Easy there man. I still don't hate Love, never have. Unlikely I will, unless he does something egregious off the field. I also didn't have an agenda for the draft. I am happy to admit that I don't follow college players close enough to have a good idea of who's good and draft eligible, let alone how they project to the professional game.

I want to stress I am keeping the pick and player separate. I'm annoyed we didn't get game day value in 2020 or 2021. That's it.

As far as Love the player, I hope he's good. I like our players. I've stated the positive of some players that many think are stinkers. I liked Marshall Newhouse (no Chad Clifton, but far better than many realize) and Justin Harrell (the ruptured disk in his back has nothing to do his college injury and a lot to do with an over-enthused lifting coach.)

My person bet is that Love is closer to not-good, not because of anything he has or hasn't shown, but just playing the odds. Many players aren't good, quarterback is harder than most. It's more tempering expectations.

That's a reasonable position. Some commenters were suggesting the Packers draft a QB with a lower pick this year, but IMO that would be foolish. Love, like him or not, is logically the best option. He's played behind Rodgers for 3 years, should know the playbook inside and out, and is well acquainted with all of his teammates. It's ok to have wanted a different pick in 2020, and I wanted anything but a QB. But here we are so it's time to see what Love has got.

He's got a pretty good team around him, that is, this is not a rebuild. But I do agree with you that Love is gonna lean more towards "not good or average NFL starting QB" than the next coming of Favre or Rodgers. And hey, with a strong running game, decent OL, and a lot of studs on D, an improving STs, maybe love doesn't have to be a superstar. I'd be happy with 3,000 yards, a completion rate of 65%, TD/INT of 25/15, and maybe 500 yards rushing. Those are guesses.

I think it's fair to say everyone wants Love to succeed. With all the drama around Rodgers gone, I'm actually looking forward to the season. I'd be ecstatic with a record above .500, but 6-11 wouldn't crush me as long as there's some progress with Love. Rodgers first season was sub-500. So unless he's drop-dead awful, Love deserves two years.

 

[Schultz]

Thank you. You just solidified what I already pretty much knew. The repeated rebuttals to anything positive about Love had to do more with the disappointment of the draft pick. It’s pretty obvious no poster could hate on Love to that extent unless there were more personal reasons behind the motivation. It didn’t fit someone’s personal desires and thus someone else was going to pay for it in pounds of flesh.

I Might add though that going about repeated attempts at diminishing a player over some personal desire shows an gross inability to use discernment and that leads to mischaracterization of Love.
In short form.. it leads to a biased evaluation or prejudicial judgement of a player.

IMO the same could be said about some posters judgement of people they have never met.

 

[tynimiller]

You "blame" the system. If you want to fire a GM for every time they miss a draft pick, especially a QB, the NFL would be seeing a huge GM turnover each year. Now if the Packers think Gute is doing a poor job with Free agents, drafting in general, trades, retention, etc. (all his duties), then you move on from him. People wanting to elevate or sink Gute because of the Love pick need to take a better look at the big picture.

Gute's drafts have been illustrated over and over again and collectively far exceed what someone should expect to always get out of a draft especially when finding elite high level talent here and there...I mean shoot just Jaire and Gary alone would make Gute a good drafter.....factor in all pro level guard Jenkins and that raises even further.....

 

[PikeBadger]

While I agree with you, this is a forum and if some of the player critiques get personal, get used to it. Commenters are free to like and dislike the player or the player's performance and pretty much for any reason. It's not necessary to agree and it's probably best to leave it behind. Personally, I have enough going on without letting a sports forum occupy time in my head.

As an example, I cringe at posters referring to players by their first names. Many times it's just confusing, and on other occasions it suggests a degree of closeness with the player that does not exist. It's just kind of creepy. I've learned to look past it and life is much better.

I don't have a hissy fit or give a second thought to someone who has a different opinion than mine on the same player or subject (well ok, I've had some hissy fits). That said, there is one commenter who will argue for the sake of arguing, or to "prove" they know more. We've almost all had interactions with this guy (I think he's a guy). This is just deep insecurity and after a while, it's just easier to Ignore them.

Yeah, people using first names only for these guys always strikes me as rather silly as well.

 

[OldSchool101]

Please, link to a single post in which I diminished Love so far.

I’m forbidden. I was just about to succumb to my fleshly desires to list your derogatory statements.. then The Holy Spirit reminded me that I have prayed for you recently and for your well being. Therefore I’m called to take the position of neutrality or even possibly defending you. Forgiveness isn’t forgiveness if I regurgitate it. I apologize

 

[OldSchool101]

IMO the same could be said about some posters judgement of people they have never met.

That’s actually true and we all are human and do it to a degree. The trick is to not let it permeate.

However I’m not sure you should be running for office in governing that area.

 

[gopkrs]

Yeah, people using first names only for these guys always strikes me as rather silly as well.

Saying Mr. Would really be bad. You know, sometimes they feel like a younger member of the family

 

[Schultz]

That’s actually true and we all are human and do it to a degree. The trick is to not let it permeate.

However I’m not sure you should be running for office in governing that area.

You are correct. I am more of a campaign manager.

 

[longtimefan]

Good point. If Love sucks we'll all blame Gluten.

Scouts

people always forget about those guys

 

[OldSchool101]

You are correct. I am more of a campaign manager.

That’s fantastic! Admitting you’re a problem is half the Battle

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Or Rodgers.

The Falcons also drafted Favre outside the top 10 and the Packers also gave up an outside the top 10 pick in the 1st round for Favre.

I agree there's a chance Love works out as well as Rodgers and Favre. The odds aren't in favor of that happening though.

You "blame" the system. If you want to fire a GM for every time they miss a draft pick, especially a QB, the NFL would be seeing a huge GM turnover each year. Now if the Packers think Gute is doing a poor job with Free agents, drafting in general, trades, retention, etc. (all his duties), then you move on from him. People wanting to elevate or sink Gute because of the Love pick need to take a better look at the big picture.

Like it or not, as I've said from the beginning Gutekunst will mostly be evaluated on how trading up for Love will work out. That's because there was no need to select a quarterback at that point and every other prospect picked would have resulted in more of an impact over the first three years. With the team not having won a Super Bowl since we're not off to a good start.

He's got a pretty good team around him, that is, this is not a rebuild. But I do agree with you that Love is gonna lean more towards "not good or average NFL starting QB" than the next coming of Favre or Rodgers.

I would really like to know why there are so many fans feeling comfortable about the team surrounding Love. While the receivers and tight ends might end up developing into impact players at some point down the road all of the ones currently on the roster have combined for a total 135 catches in the NFL during their careers so far. Combine that with having a first year starter at quarterback and I fully expect them to struggle this season.

Gute's drafts have been illustrated over and over again and collectively far exceed what someone should expect to always get out of a draft especially when finding elite high level talent here and there...I mean shoot just Jaire and Gary alone would make Gute a good drafter.....factor in all pro level guard Jenkins and that raises even further.....

According to PFR's approximate value the Packers rank 19th in the league in points scored by their draft picks since 2018 compared to other teams. Therefore it might be a too optimistic view to believe Gutekunst has far exceeded expectations compared to other teams.

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I’m forbidden. I was just about to succumb to my fleshly desires to list your derogatory statements.. then The Holy Spirit reminded me that I have prayed for you recently and for your well being. Therefore I’m called to take the position of neutrality or even possibly defending you. Forgiveness isn’t forgiveness if I regurgitate it. I apologize

So what you're actually trying to say is that you didn't find any

 

[tynimiller]

According to PFR's approximate value the Packers rank 19th in the league in points scored by their draft picks since 2018 compared to other teams. Therefore it might be a too optimistic view to believe Gutekunst has far exceeded expectations compared to other teams.

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I don't care what PFR says personally - especially if they don't weight their criteria based on number of picks and level of picks either, of Gute's draft really only three of the classes are 3 or more years removed from their drafts, the general concensus of when you really know, and another at 2 of course. I've broken this all down before but let's look at in this time span say Gute's arguably confirmed best guys:

Jaire / Jenkins / Gary...and then many multi-year starter level like MVS / Runyan / Dillon / Savage...and this is without what Stokes / Wyatt / Walker / Watson / Doubs all become....and of course without this year's draft.

Didn't check them all but just spot checking some above them:

Let's look at just a few of the teams ahead of them.... Vikings since 2018....IMO 2018 and 2019 none deserve being listed other than a stretch for Irv Smith Jr. Of course 2020 they have Jefferson as the front runner, Cleveland and Dantzler.....if we go into 2021 Darrisaw is probably one you list but honestly outside of 2020 and the top dog Jefferson collectively easily IMO ignorant to put them ahead of GB.

Lions.....2018 zilch to note, 2019 Hockenson for sure worthy of being mentioned, 2020 has Okuda and Swift and then if we slip into 2021 the one we know for sure worth noting is Amon-Ra...and Penei appears to be for sure a starting T in the league (I don't see the elite level many thought but dude starts on any team across the league most likely at LT or RT). Don't see them crazy better.

 

[Mondio]

So far, I'm perfectly fine how Gute has performed. I didn't like the timing of the Love pick, but have said since then, if and whenever it is he proves to be a good QB, it was a good pick, and if he's not, well it was one doozy of a wasted opportunity. Beyond that, he's done well moving on draft boards, done well with FA, done well all things considered moving on from some players when time etc. Has accumulated a good group of guys.

He's absolutely nailed some picks, but in a world of averages he's whiffed on some too and that brings his rating down some. He's picked some real NFL studs, he's also missed out on pretty much every 3rd rounder since he's taken over. that seems to be a round where you don't often get studs, but the good ones get those unsung guys that turn into solid NFL roster guys that help put you over the top and we've gotten pretty much jack squat from every one of them. Overall though, i'm in no rush to move on from Gute, I think he's doing a pretty good job all things considered. it's still a world of averages and I think he'll line more up than not giving us the best shot going forward. MLF however i'm not so sold on yet. This year should show a lot.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Scouts

people always forget about those guys

Yeah good point. But the guy at the top making the most money either gets the flower in his lapel or shown the door. Of course it's not fair, but what is?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

As an example, I cringe at posters referring to players by their first names. Many times it's just confusing, and on other occasions it suggests a degree of closeness with the player that does not exist.

Yeah, people using first names only for these guys always strikes me as rather silly as well.

I hear ya Joe and Pike!

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Scouts

people always forget about those guys

I have often wondered about that too. Especially with all the failed DB's that were selected by TT. I wanted to blame TT and coaching, but whoever scouted those guys and recommended them, should be washing cars right now.

 

[AmishMafia]

I have often wondered about that too. Especially with all the failed DB's that were selected by TT. I wanted to blame TT and coaching, but whoever scouted those guys and recommended them, should be washing cars right now.

When it is a certain position group, it has probably more to do with coaching. Packers DBs Hyde and Hayward both were okay players in GB and left after rookie contracts. Both excelled on other teams and made all-pro.

In 1958 the Packer had a roster with 15 HOFers or All-Pros. They won 1 game. Lombardi became the coach next year or we probably would have never thought they were worth much.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

When it is a certain position group, it has probably more to do with coaching. Packers DBs Hyde and Hayward both were okay players in GB and left after rookie contracts. Both excelled on other teams and made all-pro.

In 1958 the Packer had a roster with 15 HOFers or All-Pros. They won 1 game. Lombardi became the coach next year or we probably would have never thought they were worth much.

I agree that coaching was most definitely a factor. However, when you spend 1st and 2nd round picks, that more times than not, weren't just failures with the Packers, but did nothing after they were shown the door, you have to question scouting.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I hear ya Joe and Pike!

Very good Poker, but hey, we don’t play for the Packers. Anyway, good one!

 

[OldSchool101]

That's because there was no need to select a quarterback at that point

This is purely speculative. I know we’ve argued the point of play decline and we can agree to disagree on that part but it’s a fact that his play was less than stellar in 2018,2019.

Beyond that you and I don’t know the full spectrum of disgruntlement that was going on behind closed doors. Aaron’s discontent was already set in motion. It was propelled by players (and close friends) departing, such as Jordy Nelson (2018) and Randall Cobb (2019)

After Aaron Rodgers started, The Packers selected exactly Zero QB’s across 11 Drafts inside of the first 4 Draft Rounds until the selection of Jordan Love. We took just 2 QB’s across those 11 drafts
2012 #243 overall BJ Coleman
2015 #147 overall Brett Hundley

The Packers had a QB that would be turning 37yrs old during the 2020 season and had 2 of his worst 3 statistical seasons (CONSECUTIVE) across those 12 seasons. Not only had GB largely ignored draft resources at QB across those 11 seasons, it actually set a Green Bay Packer franchise record for the LEAST amount of draft expenditures spent at the QB position across an 11 year spectrum going back to the inception of the NFL draft. When we’re they supposed to draft a QB? When Rodgers decided to bail out last second? 2023??

GB was not going to pass on a QB they thought could be groomed as the heir apparent when he fell past his consensus #22 overall draft grade. Especially not to keep a few fans happy and go after a positional need and ignore BAP.

 

[tynimiller]

I just struggle with folks hardlining on both extremes...

Capt says there was zero need in a declarative definitive manner - which is just false in numerous ways, even if it is just purely by the fact they may have very well saw a massively higher rated BPA drop to the position they did...that is something all GMs need to make happen when they do.

Likewise those saying it was absolutely needed and what they should have done is also somewhat misguided IMO....Rodgers was not by the performance drop off cliff yet...statistical indicators illustrated potentially he was teetering towards it but a guy that "is" the franchise or as close to it as one can get you don't try and get cute with your timing of being early rather than late IMO. You draft to feed them till you for sure know he fell off the cliff of performance.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I agree that coaching was most definitely a factor. However, when you spend 1st and 2nd round picks, that more times than not, weren't just failures with the Packers, but did nothing after they were shown the door, you have to question

This is purely speculative. I know we’ve argued the point of play decline and we can agree to disagree on that part but it’s a fact that his play was less than stellar in 2018,2019.

Beyond that you and I don’t know the full spectrum of disgruntlement that was going on behind closed doors. Aaron’s discontent was already set in motion. It was propelled by players (and close friends) departing, such as Jordy Nelson (2018) and Randall Cobb (2019)

After Aaron Rodgers started, The Packers selected exactly Zero QB’s across 11 Drafts inside of the first 4 Draft Rounds until the selection of Jordan Love. We took just 2 QB’s across those 11 drafts
2012 #243 overall BJ Coleman
2015 #147 overall Brett Hundley

The Packers had a QB that would be turning 37yrs old during the 2020 season and had 2 of his worst 3 statistical seasons (CONSECUTIVE) across those 12 seasons. Not only had GB largely ignored draft resources at QB across those 11 seasons, it actually set a Green Bay Packer franchise record for the LEAST amount of draft expenditures spent at the QB position across an 11 year spectrum going back to the inception of the NFL draft. When we’re they supposed to draft a QB? When Rodgers decided to bail out last second? 2023??

GB was not going to pass on a QB they thought could be groomed as the heir apparent when he fell past his consensus #22 overall draft grade. Especially not to keep a few fans happy and go after a positional need and ignore BAP. With some fans (as with some people) in life, they’ll find a way to continually complain at every corner.

Where did you find that Love was a consensus #22 pick in 2020? I didn't see his name in many articles about first round QBs in 2020, and the first time I heard his name is when GB drafted him. Jordan Who?

I agree that he should be starting for the next two years.

But at the time of the 2020 draft, I think the collective response from Packer Nation was "WTF just happened?"