Packers Front Office Under Fire

[longtimefan]

Also according to Brandt the Packers tried to trade out of that spot because Rodgers was the last first round prospect left on their board and they didn't wanna take him....

Hmmmm

I think you might be wrong

https://www.audacy.com/cbssportsrad...dt-reflects-on-moment-packers-drafted-rodgers

Now we have this combustible moment, where the coaches are very much saying, 'No way in hell can we do this. We can't take a player who's not going to help us.' Because coaches are judged on immediate results... And then on the personnel side, it was all about, 'Hey, what do we always say? Trust the board. And yes, the player's not going to help us, but let's do this.' So I got [Rodgers] on the phone, I held him there for 15 minutes... No one wanted Aaron Rodgers... We make the pick, we have a Lambeau Field draft party, a thousand people below us, and that booing shook our souls.

he had rodgers on phone for 15 mins, but according to you they tried to trade out??

can i see the quote to make you believe that?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

You may be failing to understand that Gute initially DID NOT WANT to draft Love. He was on their board but Gute attempted to trade up for 3 different receivers in the 1st round. None of the trade offers panned out and Gute was unable to find a suitable team to trade down for an early 2nd round pick, so he drafted Love since he was on their board much like the situation with Rodgers back in the day.

First of all how do you know Gutekunst tried to trade up for a receiver three times as well as him didn't want to draft Love??? The situation wasn't anything like Thompson drafting Rodgers 15 years earlier either.

It’s also possible Rodgers watched Love in practice and said to himself, this guy throws and moves better than I did as a rookie.

Love wasn't able to move past Boyle on the depth chart, I'm quite sure he didn't impress anyone in practice last year.

The pick at the time wasn't popular, because very few of us saw the need, including myself. Well, Rodgers is now proving "the need" was possibly warranted, so maybe we should all say that Gute made a brilliant pick, because he knew something was up with Rodgers and Love was a guy he felt was not just a bargain at 26, but a potential insurance policy, in case Rodgers decided he didn't want to play for the Packers anymore.

Imagine how stupid Gute would look now had he not taken Love and it came out that he knew Rodgers had 1 foot out the door. Oh wait, that doesn't fit with the narrative that Love is the sole reason Rodgers wants out of Green Bay. Also, does anyone think that had Love not been selected, Gute wouldn't have wanted to go after one in this past draft? Who was available at #29 or even close to #29? Mac Jones went at #15....and Kyle Trask at #64.

I think you completely underestimate that the Packers selecting Love is the main reason Rodgers reportedly wants out of Green Bay.

Even if he's the backup for 3 years and you trade him at that point because sime other team wants him as their starter.

I highly doubt another team would be interested in giving up fair compensation for a quarterback who has sat on the bench for three seasons.

None of us have any way of knowing the bolded portion of your post is true and very possibly will never know. NFL GM’s generally don’t speak about specific draft trades that didn’t materialize. It’s very possible that other teams were looking to trade up before our 30th pick.

It's true because it fits his narrative.

Interesting that none of you called out the other poster mentioning Gutekunst tried to trade up three times to select a receiver in last year's draft. Guess that fit your narrative.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I think you completely underestimate that the Packers selecting Love is the main reason Rodgers reportedly wants out of Green Bay.

While I did say it was one of the reasons, I think its more complicated than just Love. Go back in "Rodgers History" and count the number of times he was supposedly upset with either coaching or the front office. Love might have been the straw that broke the camels back, but that back was going to break eventually.

Love wasn't able to move past Boyle on the depth chart, I'm quite sure he didn't impress anyone in practice last year.

This has been beaten to death, yet you keep bringing it up like its Love's final grade in the NFL. Have you convinced yourself that it was such a bad pick, that there is no way that Love will not develop any further than what he did during the Covid impacted season? You do realize the Packers let Boyle walk right? How are you so certain that he didn't impress anyone in practice? I would love to read what you are reading about that aspect. Please don't bring up "this guy didn't seem to be impacted by Covid". Had the Packers felt the need to rush Love along, they would have, but they had Aaron fricking Rodgers and what they felt was an adequate enough backup in Boyle, so there was zero pressure on having to put Love in a potential bad situation.

Interesting that none of you called out the other poster mentioning Gutekunst tried to trade up three times to select a receiver in last year's draft. Guess that fit your narrative.

Bring him in here so we can brow beat him for such claim! I frankly missed it and if someone doesn't continually repeat something like that multiple times as well as try to hang their hat on it to prove some wild theory, then its just one posters speculation and not worth debating all that much. Guess it also depends on if its a slow news day in The Packer Forum. .

 

[tynimiller]

Bring him in here so we can brow beat him for such claim! I frankly missed it and if someone doesn't continually repeat something like that multiple times as well as try to hang their hat on it to prove some wild theory, then its just one posters speculation and not worth debating all that much. Guess it also depends on if its a slow news day in The Packer Forum. .

It isn't a wild theory, Gute himself made it known they tried to move up last year. Quite a few of us have shared that information as well. I think you looked away on purpose LOL

 

[PikeBadger]

I will go to my grave saying that Lombardi and Bo Ryan will forever be two of the greatest sports coaches of all-time. They were both able to take below average talent and turn them into stars in their own right in order to make the whole team successful.

Ryan was truly amazing and I believe very under appreciated much like **** Bennett. Lombardi was an awesome coach, but he came to Green Bay in 59 with a lot of good talent already on the roster. He did turn Starr into one of the greatest QB’s of all time but I really can’t think of many guys on the glory years teams that were below average in talent. Vince brought in quite a few more talented pieces in the early 60’s as well to form a great roster. He was brilliant at figuring out what fit well and what didn’t. Flawless execution was their hallmark.

 

[PikeBadger]

He could, but it might take two late 4th rounders or a 4th and a early 5th to get there. No way am I giving up a Dean Lowery and an Aaron Kampman for a Cory Rodgers!

Was Cory Rodgers taken at 109 too? Now that was a bust! Got cut before opening day.

Funny how you view that just the opposite of me. I was thinking along the lines of trading back a 3rd for a 4th and 5th.

 

[G0P4ckG0]

Flawless execution was their hallmark.

This. THIS. I see it in MLF and I'm very excited for our future

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It isn't a wild theory, Gute himself made it known they tried to move up last year. Quite a few of us have shared that information as well. I think you looked away on purpose LOL

Oh come on, you think my frustration with the WR's clouded my vision? Now that I look it up, I do remember the talk about the claim that Gute tried to move up in the first. Yet, still nothing in the 2nd or the 3rd or .....in a deep WR draft class. Then over a year later we see Ian Rapoport talking about it, because its another piece of the "why Aaron wants out puzzle."

Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet

The draft is the ultimate what-if. In 2020, #Packers GM Brian Gutekunst targeted a WR. He tried to trade up for LSU WR Justin Jefferson, only to see MIN take him. He watched the #49ers trade up for ASU WR Brandon Aiyuk - another target. Then GB moved up to select… Jordan Love.

9:51 AM · May 3, 2021·TweetDeck

Meanwhile Peter King, a few days after the draft says this:

"Gutekunst said the Packers had two receivers they were targeting in [the] early and middle part of the second round," King wrote. "They tried to move up with several teams, he said, until the second receiver they preferred got picked, and then they stopped."

So I am still confused, did Gute actually want to move up in the first or was it the second or was is just media or GM speak?

 

[tynimiller]

Oh come on, you think my frustration with the WR's clouded my vision? Now that I look it up, I do remember the talk about the claim that Gute tried to move up in the first. Yet, still nothing in the 2nd or the 3rd or .....in a deep WR draft class. Then over a year later we see Ian Rapoport talking about it, because its another piece of the "why Aaron wants out puzzle."

Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet

The draft is the ultimate what-if. In 2020, #Packers GM Brian Gutekunst targeted a WR. He tried to trade up for LSU WR Justin Jefferson, only to see MIN take him. He watched the #49ers trade up for ASU WR Brandon Aiyuk - another target. Then GB moved up to select… Jordan Love.

9:51 AM · May 3, 2021·TweetDeck

Meanwhile Peter King, a few days after the draft says this:

"Gutekunst said the Packers had two receivers they were targeting in [the] early and middle part of the second round," King wrote. "They tried to move up with several teams, he said, until the second receiver they preferred got picked, and then they stopped."

So I am still confused, did Gute actually want to move up in the first or was it the second or was is just media or GM speak?

Multiple occassions Gute made it sound like they had wanted up in the 1st and then entering day 2 they had a couple guys circled to try and move up - never came to be. I believe day 2 those guys were Pittman and then one of Higgins, Laviska, Hamler, Claypool, Van Jefferson.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Multiple occassions Gute made it sound like they had wanted up in the 1st and then entering day 2 they had a couple guys circled to try and move up - never came to be. I believe day 2 those guys were Pittman and then one of Higgins, Laviska, Hamler, Claypool, Van Jefferson.

I'm sticking to my premise that if they really wanted any of those guys that bad, they would have found a way. I'm not going to keep beating my WR drum though, I was extremely happy that they got Amari, whether he turns into a solid player or not, we will see. However, at least it is a step forward, in acknowledging and trying to address the need.

For all those wanting to float the theory that Rodgers wants out due to Love being drafted, I have to wonder if that might have been negated a bit had they given him a WR in the 2nd round. I guess we will never know.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Was Cory Rodgers taken at 109 too? Now that was a bust! Got cut before opening day.

Funny how you view that just the opposite of me. I was thinking along the lines of trading back a 3rd for a 4th and 5th.

Rodgers was at 104 actually and yes a terrible pick, which was why I named him and in doing so was being facetious and smart ***y.

I don't think there is really anything wrong with moving back or forward in the draft, if its what the Packers think will bring them the most value, do it. See nobody you have graded high enough for the pick?....trade back if you can. See someone still on the board that you had graded much higher and like?...try and go get him. Which is what they did with Love. I seriously doubt that Love wasn't on the Packers draft board when it started and his grade was probably at a top 20 or so value.

 

[PikeBadger]

No sht none of us have anyway of knowing that because nobody did select him before the Packers pick...it's simply mine and a lot of other people's opinions at the time it happened.

Oh yeah and it's also exactly what happened in reality so I guess we kinda do know huh?

Also according to Brandt the Packers tried to trade out of that spot because Rodgers was the last first round prospect left on their board and they didn't wanna take him...

Oh you thought I was talking about Love? What you bolded was about Rodgers...

you’re right. My bad. I thought you were referring to Love. Misread it.

 

[tynimiller]

I'm sticking to my premise that if they really wanted any of those guys that bad, they would have found a way. I'm not going to keep beating my WR drum though, I was extremely happy that they got Amari, whether he turns into a solid player or not, we will see. However, at least it is a step forward, in acknowledging and trying to address the need.

For all those wanting to float the theory that Rodgers wants out due to Love being drafted, I have to wonder if that might have been negated a bit had they given him a WR in the 2nd round. I guess we will never know.

You cannot throw out reason or get that honed in on a guy to the point of over trading for how you have him ranked. Example, I had Greg Newsome ranked higher than Stokes - but I'm not giving up more than say a 4th in a similar trade to what it took to get Love (move up 4-6 spots). Okay great, issue is you have to have a trade partner willing to give up their pick for your 29th plus a 4th to move back 4-6 spots. Those spots included, in order, the Vikings, Steelers, Jaguars, Browns, Ravens and Saints. You can eliminate the Vikings from ever considering in division trade in the first...Steelers word is did not want to miss out on Harris - so JAX is your only shot and they could say no - Browns pick their number one CB on the board which is Newsome and you couldn't make it happen. Perhaps you called up Giants at #20 - but they didn't want to budge again after moving back already - Colts absolutely loved that Paye fell to them so they wanted vastly too much and the Titans also wanted more than you saw the value of Newsome at.

I loved Michael Pittman last year, LOVED him but I'm not calling up the team with the 15th pick say and offering my 1st, a future 2nd and our current 2nd also just to insure I get "my guy".

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

You cannot throw out reason or get that honed in on a guy to the point of over trading for how you have him ranked. Example, I had Greg Newsome ranked higher than Stokes - but I'm not giving up more than say a 4th in a similar trade to what it took to get Love (move up 4-6 spots). Okay great, issue is you have to have a trade partner willing to give up their pick for your 29th plus a 4th to move back 4-6 spots. Those spots included, in order, the Vikings, Steelers, Jaguars, Browns, Ravens and Saints. You can eliminate the Vikings from ever considering in division trade in the first...Steelers word is did not want to miss out on Harris - so JAX is your only shot and they could say no - Browns pick their number one CB on the board which is Newsome and you couldn't make it happen. Perhaps you called up Giants at #20 - but they didn't want to budge again after moving back already - Colts absolutely loved that Paye fell to them so they wanted vastly too much and the Titans also wanted more than you saw the value of Newsome at.

I loved Michael Pittman last year, LOVED him but I'm not calling up the team with the 15th pick say and offering my 1st, a future 2nd and our current 2nd also just to insure I get "my guy".

Well yes, but every team has a different board, different needs, different perspective on what other teams might be thinking etc. I agree that you probably never swing a deal with a divisional opponent, but sitting down after the draft and saying "this is why that happened" or "it would have worked if they just would have...", really still just a guess centered around way too many variables to be very accurate with the should of could of's. Now if you had a chance to look at all the GM's notes, heard their conversations and lastly, interviewed them (I would put less stock in that), then you might be able to piece together a better picture of why picks were made. Finally, I think the stories and truths get a little more off as you move further away from the draft, especially a year or two after and people start claiming "I would have done this or that and look at how well he has played or what a lousy pick he was, these GM's are idiots."

 

[tynimiller]

Well yes, but every team has a different board, different needs, different perspective on what other teams might be thinking etc. I agree that you probably never swing a deal with a divisional opponent, but sitting down after the draft and saying "this is why that happened" or "it would have worked if they just would have...", really still just a guess centered around way too many variables to be very accurate with the should of could of's. Now if you had a chance to look at all the GM's notes, heard their conversations and lastly, interviewed them (I would put less stock in that), then you might be able to piece together a better picture of why picks were made. Finally, I think the stories and truths get a little more off as you move further away from the draft, especially a year or two after and people start claiming "I would have done this or that and look at how well he has played or what a lousy pick he was, these GM's are idiots."

From listening to Gute in each of the last two years, I gathered he was attempting especially day 2 in 2020 to get one of their guys. Likewise it seemed this year from moments after selecting Josh Myers Gute and Co. was placing constant calls trying to swing back up for Amari - if Gute sees a guy of great value beyond where he thinks they should be and he is circled on their board it is clear Gute will swing for them.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

if Gute sees a guy of great value beyond where he thinks they should be and he is circled on their board it is clear Gute will swing for them.

Oh I don't doubt that. Now we just have to see if those decisions pay off.

I think we can probably grade his first draft (2018) and besides Jaire and maybe MVS, its kind of a disaster IMO. In all fairness though, Savage has to almost be a part of it, with the move Gute made to get the 2019 pick. 2019 looks like an improvement and could get even better if Gary keeps getting better and Keke and Sternberger as well.

 

[mradtke66]

I'm sticking to my premise that if they really wanted any of those guys that bad, they would have found a way.

A way is not necessarily a good way or a good idea.

If the price was "this years no.2, next year's no.1 and no.2," technically, yes they COULD have paid it. But it's a pretty poor trade.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

A way is not necessarily a good way or a good idea.

Of course, I think that is inherently implied with most things

"I will find a way back to you". Doesn't necessarily mean I will kill, rob, cheat and steal to do it.

 

[tynimiller]

Oh I don't doubt that. Now we just have to see if those decisions pay off.

I think we can probably grade his first draft (2018) and besides Jaire and maybe MVS, its kind of a disaster IMO. In all fairness though, Savage has to almost be a part of it, with the move Gute made to get the 2019 pick. 2019 looks like an improvement and could get even better if Gary keeps getting better and Keke and Sternberger as well.

It is barely within IMO a time frame to start placing true grades on his first draft class (2018) - the other classes are too early but 2019 looks awesome and 2020 shows solid promise for starters out of it too.

2018 for those not remembering:

Jaire Alexander
Josh Jackson
Oren Burks
J'Mon Moore
Cole Madison
JK Scott
MVS
EQSB
James Looney
Hunter Bradley
Kendall Donnerson

We got a serious All Pro CB in Jaire
Got another starting #3 WR - MVS
Two that still could redeem themselves, but have offered ST and Depth in Burks and EQSB

Two Special Teams starters, but to be fair replaceable with rookie once contracts up for sure in Bradley and Scott.

So to get an All Pro, a #3 deep threat, two ST starters and two ST/depth guys during their rookie years in a draft is pretty stinking solid. *Also factor in we left this draft with an extra 1st rounder in 2019 too

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It is barely within IMO a time frame to start placing true grades on his first draft class (2018) - the other classes are too early but 2019 looks awesome and 2020 shows solid promise for starters out of it too.

2018 for those not remembering:

Jaire Alexander
Josh Jackson
Oren Burks
J'Mon Moore
Cole Madison
JK Scott
MVS
EQSB
James Looney
Hunter Bradley
Kendall Donnerson

We got a serious All Pro CB in Jaire
Got another starting #3 WR - MVS
Two that still could redeem themselves, but have offered ST and Depth in Burks and EQSB

Two Special Teams starters, but to be fair replaceable with rookie once contracts up for sure in Bradley and Scott.

So to get an All Pro, a #3 deep threat, two ST starters and two ST/depth guys during their rookie years in a draft is pretty stinking solid. *Also factor in we left this draft with an extra 1st rounder in 2019 too

You are far more generous and optimistic than I am. I did mention rolling the Pick into Savage the following year. That and Alexander are the only 2 reasons I would even give this an average grade, the rest is pretty marginal to poor. Jackson, Burks, Moore, Madison and even Scott as a 5th round punter are all swings and misses in my book. Sure, maybe Burks or ESB turn into something, but so far, they are both duds. No way were Jackson, Burks or Moore drafted for depth.

Also, remember that we had 12 picks going into in that draft. (14,45,76,101,133,138,172,174,186,207,232,239)

While I agree that you can't give it a final grade just yet, I still look at how quickly some of those guys were busts and then how many are just now "hopeful". I think after next year, you will see that it produced JA, Savage and MVS and MVS may not even be in Green Bay in 2022.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

It is barely within IMO a time frame to start placing true grades on his first draft class (2018) - the other classes are too early but 2019 looks awesome and 2020 shows solid promise for starters out of it too.

2018 for those not remembering:

Jaire Alexander
Josh Jackson
Oren Burks
J'Mon Moore
Cole Madison
JK Scott
MVS
EQSB
James Looney
Hunter Bradley
Kendall Donnerson

We got a serious All Pro CB in Jaire
Got another starting #3 WR - MVS
Two that still could redeem themselves, but have offered ST and Depth in Burks and EQSB

Two Special Teams starters, but to be fair replaceable with rookie once contracts up for sure in Bradley and Scott.

So to get an All Pro, a #3 deep threat, two ST starters and two ST/depth guys during their rookie years in a draft is pretty stinking solid. *Also factor in we left this draft with an extra 1st rounder in 2019 too

All Pro is obviously a big plus. MVS is a deep threat who can run really fast and then generally catch the ball; on a team with a deeper receiving corps (Minnesota, Tampa, KC, etc) he might be 4th at best.

Getting a top 3 corner is amazing. The rest is bleh. A draft that gives one starter, a backup receiver, and then 2 ST guys is not a good draft. At that rate, if you're a contender, you're using free agency a LOT to fill in all the holes on the roster.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

All Pro is obviously a big plus. MVS is a deep threat who can run really fast and then generally catch the ball; on a team with a deeper receiving corps (Minnesota, Tampa, KC, etc) he might be 4th at best.

Getting a top 3 corner is amazing. The rest is bleh. A draft that gives one starter, a backup receiver, and then 2 ST guys is not a good draft. At that rate, if you're a contender, you're using free agency a LOT to fill in all the holes on the roster.

Still need to include Savage in there to some extent, but I obviously agree with you.

I have to put Jackson and Moore as my 2 biggest disappointments from that draft. Jackson at one point was being talked about as a first round pick. He has really just been a total disappointment. Moore, I don't think he could have caught Covid, walking around with no mask, in an over-strapped ER waiting room back in July.

 

[Mondio]

it's not a strong draft class, but any class that gives you a bonafide star, top 3 in the league at a premium position player can never be considered a bad draft either.

 

[tynimiller]

You guys have very unrealistic expectations for a draft.

To get 7 players out of that draft that will most likely see their entire rookie contract played out is insane really. Sure, most likely only 2 of them will most likely see measurable 2nd contracts in the NFL...but the other 5 will IMO see at least 3 of them get NFL time elsewhere moving forward too (I'd bet Jackson, Burks and EQSB most likely). Scott and Hunter are guys I could see us resign cheap or will see their careers' fizzle out.

Also MVS in his short time in the league is literally in the argument as the TOP pure deep threat guy in the league. Still very young and raw, but progressing too. Folks just pretending he can be overlooked as a successful pick, especially given what round, are choosing to be blind.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

You guys have very unrealistic expectations for a draft.

To get 7 players out of that draft that will most likely see their entire rookie contract played out is insane really. Sure, most likely only 2 of them will most likely see measurable 2nd contracts in the NFL...but the other 5 will IMO see at least 3 of them get NFL time elsewhere moving forward too (I'd bet Jackson, Burks and EQSB most likely). Scott and Hunter are guys I could see us resign cheap or will see their careers' fizzle out.

Also MVS in his short time in the league is literally in the argument as the TOP pure deep threat guy in the league. Still very young and raw, but progressing too. Folks just pretending he can be overlooked as a successful pick, especially given what round, are choosing to be blind.

MVS is well down the list of deep threats in the NFL. Although that's probably because he doesn't do much else while the guys above him can generally run additional routes. The 2018 draft got one impact player, one backup, and 2 special teams guys. That's not a good ratio out of eleven picks. And, in my opinion, the fact that 3 other guys will see their rookie deals pay off just says the team couldn't draft anyone better, not that those guys are really deserving of anything resembling props.

If that draft is something to be considered decent, then the Packers would basically need to sign, what, 15 free agent starters every 5 years? I'm sure that's not exact but my point is that 2 actual contributors (one offense and one defense) in a draft will leave a team looking like the Lions REAL fast.