Packers Front Office Under Fire

[PikeBadger]

You just said it.

Defense I've heard for the pick is that he's an amazing talent that will continue the Packers modern tradition of elite QB play.

No one has said that. Show us...people said great talent..sure. But no one expects him to be like rodgers or brett..I doubt even the packers believe that...so just stop with the induendos of that...its childish

I just posted it somewhere else.. But why cant people of your mind set see the idea that Rodgers had issues before love was picked. Experts said it, posters said it..

Love was drafted to prob start in 23..and rodgers threw the monkey wrench into their plans.

Wheather he knew this or just dawned in him..I think he is facing his own mortality and it scares him.

It’s also possible Rodgers watched Love in practice and said to himself, this guy throws and moves better than I did as a rookie.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

It’s also possible Rodgers watched Love in practice and said to himself, this guy throws and moves better than I did as a rookie.

It's possible but I doubt a current MVP felt threatened. Also, now that I think about it, Rodgers didn't have much time to watch Love last year considering the lack of preseason practice and practice time in general.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I do agree Love was too tempting to pass up at #30 because even though I didn't want to take a qb I found myself selecting him at 30 in mocks...I would of had a conversation with Rodgers before I did it though, a courtesy flush if you will

This sounds like hedging on your part to me. "Too tempting to pass up at #30", but because we moved 4 spots and gave away a 4th round pick to do so, the price was way too high? How would you have felt had TT used a 4th round to move up and select Rodgers, instead of waiting for him to drop in his lap? Take a look at players the Packers have selected through the years at both #30 as well as #136 (late 4th rd.) You still worried about giving up a #136 pick for an attempt at drafting the #1 position on the team?

The pick at the time wasn't popular, because very few of us saw the need, including myself. Well, Rodgers is now proving "the need" was possibly warranted, so maybe we should all say that Gute made a brilliant pick, because he knew something was up with Rodgers and Love was a guy he felt was not just a bargain at 26, but a potential insurance policy, in case Rodgers decided he didn't want to play for the Packers anymore.

Imagine how stupid Gute would look now had he not taken Love and it came out that he knew Rodgers had 1 foot out the door. Oh wait, that doesn't fit with the narrative that Love is the sole reason Rodgers wants out of Green Bay. Also, does anyone think that had Love not been selected, Gute wouldn't have wanted to go after one in this past draft? Who was available at #29 or even close to #29? Mac Jones went at #15....and Kyle Trask at #64.

 

[thequick12]

This sounds like hedging on your part to me. "Too tempting to pass up at #30", but because we moved 4 spots and gave away a 4th round pick to do so, the price was way too high? How would you have felt had TT used a 4th round to move up and select Rodgers, instead of waiting for him to drop in his lap? Take a look at players the Packers have selected through the years at both #30 as well as #136 (late 4th rd.) You still worried about giving up a #136 pick for an attempt at drafting the #1 position on the team?

The pick at the time wasn't popular, because very few of us saw the need, including myself. Well, Rodgers is now proving "the need" was possibly warranted, so maybe we should all say that Gute made a brilliant pick, because he knew something was up with Rodgers and Love was a guy he felt was not just a bargain at 26, but a potential insurance policy, in case Rodgers decided he didn't want to play for the Packers anymore.

Imagine how stupid Gute would look now had he not taken Love and it came out that he knew Rodgers had 1 foot out the door. Oh wait, that doesn't fit with the narrative that Love is the sole reason Rodgers wants out of Green Bay. Also, does anyone think that had Love not been selected, Gute wouldn't have wanted to go after one in this past draft? Who was available at #29 or even close to #29? Mac Jones went at #15....and Kyle Trask at #64.

I've said this all along, even right after the draft. My stance hasn't changed. I personally don't trade up for the guy because I didn't like him that much. But I liked him enough that when he fell in the mocks I was doing. I selected him some of the time. My reasoning was he looks like he has an elite ceiling. Even if he's the backup for 3 years and you trade him at that point because sime other team wants him as their starter. Great! But this team is a contender perennially why not have a backup guy you're developing for a rainy day. That just might be able to come in and save your season if needed...

And yes I view pick 136 as valuable. You say look at the late first round guys. I say look at the 4th round guys. Without looking I'll say the 4th has been better.

The Rodgers selection was not the same as Love. It's not apples...but I didn't think they needed to trade up for Rodgers at the time nor did I think they had to trade up for love. And I'm all about efficiency...so yeah I wouldn't have liked a trade up for Rodgers because it was so clear at the time he was falling to GB

And dude the "need" was created by the way they selected Love. Rodgers had already stated he wanted to keep playing for a long time. He only has one foot out the door once again because of the Live selection/embarrassment. So I can't agree with that part at all. You can't create a problem thru negligence and then fix the problem and be seen as great for that

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

And yes I view pick 136 as valuable. You say look at the late first round guys. I say look at the 4th round guys. Without looking I'll say the 4th has been better.

Actually...look at the history of Packer picks at 136 or later, a pick at 106 is not the same as at 136 right? 135 either. Add up all the picks and keep track of success and failures. Then give me your honest assessment of just how valuable that pick is. You will no doubt want to use any pick at 136 or later, which will give you rounds 5, 6 and 7 as well. Yes, I know Jones, Lowery and Linsley were selected after 136.

Maybe a 1 out of 10 rate of success? I'm going to concede that pick every time, if it means moving up in the first round and grabbing a guy I really covet, at a very expensive position.

 

[thequick12]

Actually...look at the history of Packer picks at 136 or later, a pick at 106 is not the same as at 136 right? 135 either. Add up all the picks and keep track of success and failures. Then give me your honest assessment of just how valuable that pick is. You will no doubt want to use any pick at 136 or later, which will give you rounds 5, 6 and 7 as well. Yes, I know Jones, Lowery and Linsley were selected after 136.

Maybe a 1 out of 10 rate of success? I'm going to concede that pick every time, if it means moving up in the first round and grabbing a guy I really covet, at a very expensive position.

Josh Sitton #135
Tj Lang #109
Bakh #109
Mike Daniels #132

All 4th rounders

Late first


John Michaels #27
Derek Sherrod #32
Ahmad Carrol #25
Datone Jones #26



Off top of my head...

 

[OldSchool101]

And yes I view pick 136 as valuable. You say look at the late first round guys. I say look at the 4th round guys. Without looking I'll say the 4th has been better.

All draft pics are valuable to GM’s and Gutenkunst has a mindset to stockpile comp selections snd package selections so we can make moves like this. So technically you agree with Gute, just not in methodology. He likes to move around the board into what he sees as high value areas of the draft board. That’s not a bad strategy to attain your next franchise QB either.

The Rodgers selection was not the same as Love. It's not apples...but I didn't think they needed to trade up for Rodgers at the time nor did I think they had to trade up for love. And I'm all about efficiency...so yeah I wouldn't have liked a trade up for Rodgers because it was so clear at the time he was falling to GB

Nothing personal..: but you’re crazy! Just busting your chops. If you did a poll? that TT move would go down as not only his best draft selection of a long career, but arguably one of the best trades in NFL history. If you took an NFL HC poll it would be top 5 in NFL history.

Josh Sitton
Tj Lang
Bakh
Mike Daniels
All 4th rounders

I noticed exactly ZERO of your examples are those of our current GM.
It is a statistical fact that the earlier a player is selected in the draft, the longer his career and the more productive he is. So if you’re making the assertion that we are better off in round 4 than round 1? Think of how that sounds for a minute.

Getting back to this current FO under fire.. How would you rate our current GM’s trade up selection of J’aire Alexander? with trading a #27+#76 (3rd rounder) #186 (6th rounder)for him?

Now. How about considering the last GM’s (TT) trading #29 backwards to get #33 King+#101 Biegel (early 4th).
You got your way. You missed a day 1 selection and got your 4th rounder

 

[PikeBadger]

I've said this all along, even right after the draft. My stance hasn't changed. I personally don't trade up for the guy because I didn't like him that much. But I liked him enough that when he fell in the mocks I was doing. I selected him some of the time. My reasoning was he looks like he has an elite ceiling. Even if he's the backup for 3 years and you trade him at that point because sime other team wants him as their starter. Great! But this team is a contender perennially why not have a backup guy you're developing for a rainy day. That just might be able to come in and save your season if needed...

And yes I view pick 136 as valuable. You say look at the late first round guys. I say look at the 4th round guys. Without looking I'll say the 4th has been better.

The Rodgers selection was not the same as Love. It's not apples...but I didn't think they needed to trade up for Rodgers at the time nor did I think they had to trade up for love. And I'm all about efficiency...so yeah I wouldn't have liked a trade up for Rodgers because it was so clear at the time he was falling to GB

And dude the "need" was created by the way they selected Love. Rodgers had already stated he wanted to keep playing for a long time. He only has one foot out the door once again because of the Live selection/embarrassment. So I can't agree with that part at all. You can't create a problem thru negligence and then fix the problem and be seen as great for that

None of us have any way of knowing the bolded portion of your post is true and very possibly will never know. NFL GM’s generally don’t speak about specific draft trades that didn’t materialize. It’s very possible that other teams were looking to trade up before our 30th pick.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Josh Sitton #135
Tj Lang #109
Bakh #109
Mike Daniels #132

All 4th rounders

Late first


John Michaels #27
Derek Sherrod #32
Ahmad Carrol #25
Datone Jones #26



Off top of my head...

Nice try. None of those 4 were picked at 136 or later. Which was the reason for my rather lengthy explanation that a pick at 106 (4th round) is not equivalent to a pick at ...136, which is the one Gute traded to move up for Love.

I suppose we could have moved up from 136 to get one of those guys. However, that would have cost us other picks and that probably goes against your beliefs.

I'm sticking to my approximate 1 out of 10 success rate with those 136 and later picks. Of course you will say Jeff Janis was a successful pick. 7th round yeah I guess. But at 136?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

None of us have any way of knowing the bolded portion of your post is true and very possibly will never know. NFL GM’s generally don’t speak about specific draft trades that didn’t materialize. It’s very possible that other teams were looking to trade up before our 30th pick.

It's true because it fits his narrative.

 

[thequick12]

All draft pics are valuable to GM’s and Gutenkunst has a mindset to stockpile comp selections snd package selections so we can make moves like this. So technically you agree with Gute, just not in methodology. He likes to move around the board into what he sees as high value areas of the draft board. That’s not a bad strategy to attain your next franchise QB either.
Nothing personal..: but you’re crazy! Just busting your chops. If you did a poll? that TT move would go down as not only his best draft selection of a long career, but arguably one of the best trades in NFL history. If you took an NFL HC poll it would be top 5 in NFL history.


I noticed exactly ZERO of your examples are those of our current GM.
It is a historical fact that the earlier a player is selected in the draft, the longer his career and the more productive he is. So if you’re making the assertion that we are better off in round 4 than round 1? Think of how that sounds for a minute.
How do you rate our current GM’s trade up selection of J’aire Alexander? with trading a #27+#76 (3rd rounder) #186 (6th rounder)for him?
0-10 being best (and you can use decimals)

Now. How would you rate TT trading #29 backwards to get #33 King+#101 Biegel (early 4th) using a same 0-10 scale?

Ok let's see here haha...

I do agree with gutes philosophy of moving around the board to find "sweet spots". I just don't agree that he's been that great at it. I don't think he had to do it for Amari Rodgers this year or Oren Burks off the top of my head. I feel like he has left a lot of value on the table. Dillion and Deguara while not trades...reaches

Haha I am a bit crazy but I'm also all about common sense. And yeah of course the trade had TT made it, would of gone down as legend but that's revisionist history as well as results based thinking. My point is if he traded up and he didn't need to, which he didn't, he'd have left value on the table. Not that it wouldn't possibly work out...I believe it is seen as his best pick in this reality?

No I was not arguing that historical in the NFL players drafted in the 4th round have longer careers than players drafted in the first. I was saying that in my memory of recent Packers late first round picks and 4th rounders. Off the top of my head I feel like the fourth rounders have been better.

Which is why those 4 came to mind...I didn't intentionally not choose gute picks but he was a high ranking scout at the time of a few or all of those I'm certain. I can compile the list from how about 95 thru 2019 and I think it'll show to be pretty close between late first rounders pick 25 or later and fourth rounders

I liked the Jaire Alexander trade at the time it happened because 1 they added an extra 1st in the 2019 draft and 2 I loved the player on tape only concern was injury.

I would of rated it an 8 at the time and a 10 now

The King thing I didn't like from the moment it happened...I was set on TJ Watt just because I knew he was gonna be all football and he was at a position of need and he was good value at #29
Also I knew someone I really trusted that told me he wasn't anything like JJ as a person in a good way. So I thought he was a homerun. Which I posted here pre draft...

So TT gets a 2 for that move at the time and a 0 now

 

[thequick12]

None of us have any way of knowing the bolded portion of your post is true and very possibly will never know. NFL GM’s generally don’t speak about specific draft trades that didn’t materialize. It’s very possible that other teams were looking to trade up before our 30th pick.

No sht none of us have anyway of knowing that because nobody did select him before the Packers pick...it's simply mine and a lot of other people's opinions at the time it happened.

Oh yeah and it's also exactly what happened in reality so I guess we kinda do know huh?

Also according to Brandt the Packers tried to trade out of that spot because Rodgers was the last first round prospect left on their board and they didn't wanna take him...

Oh you thought I was talking about Love? What you bolded was about Rodgers...

 

[G0P4ckG0]

Also according to Brandt the Packers tried to trade out of that spot because Rodgers was the last first round prospect left on their board and they didn't wanna take him...

Isn't that what Bob Ross refers to as a happy accident?

 

[PikeBadger]

Josh Sitton #135
Tj Lang #109
Bakh #109
Mike Daniels #132

All 4th rounders

Late first


John Michaels #27
Derek Sherrod #32
Ahmad Carrol #25
Datone Jones #26



Off top of my head...

Wow, Gutekunst needs to trade into the 109 slot every year.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Wow, Gutekunst needs to trade into the 109 slot every year.

He could, but it might take two late 4th rounders or a 4th and a early 5th to get there. No way am I giving up a Dean Lowery and an Aaron Kampman for a Cory Rodgers!

 

[OldSchool101]

I'm sticking to my approximate 1 out of 10 success rate with those 136 and later picks. Of course you will say Jeff Janis was a successful pick. 7th round yeah I guess. But at 136?

I was just thinking about that. In general we can get a serviceable starter or solid depth player earlier in day 3 drafting (after a year or two). Like you said maybe 1 in 10; we get a solid starter or above average starter. Linsley and Aaron Jones and Blake etc..
But we could all name 20+ players to offset them. So really you could say we packaged 23 selections to get those guys plus several good ST players.
Wasted in between are the J’mon Moore’s and Vince Beigels’s of the world.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I was just thinking about that. In general we can get a serviceable starter or solid depth player earlier in day 3 drafting (after a year or two). Like you said maybe 1 in 10; we get a solid starter or above average starter. Linsley and Aaron Jones and Blake etc..
But we could all name 20+ players to offset them. So really you could say we packaged 23 selections to get those guys plus several good ST players.
Wasted in between are the J’mon Moore’s and Vince Beigels’s of the world.

I used to think the more darts (draft picks) you had, the better. However, I have changed that to "get a bigger dart, if you see the target you want in your sites". So if you see a guy dropping, that you really covet and feel he isn't going to drop enough for you to get him, use some of those later round, 1 out of 10 success rate, picks to make that bigger dart and go get him. Of course that strategy can fail too, we saw that with the sure pick Tackle from Indiana, Jason Spriggs. I think TT gave up like what....20 picks for him?

 

[OldSchool101]

Ok let's see here haha...

I do agree with gutes philosophy of moving around the board to find "sweet spots". I just don't agree that he's been that great at it. I don't think he had to do it for Amari Rodgers this year or Oren Burks off the top of my head. I feel like he has left a lot of value on the table. Dillion and Deguara while not trades...

I liked the Jaire Alexander trade at the time it happened because 1 they added an extra 1st in the 2019 draft and 2 I loved the player on tape only concern was injury.
I would of rated it an 8 at the time and a 10 now

The King thing I didn't like from the moment it happened...I was set on TJ Watt just because I knew he was gonna be all football and he was at a position of need and he was good value at #29
Also I knew someone I really trusted that told me he wasn't anything like JJ as a person in a good way. So I thought he was a homerun. Which I posted here pre draft...
So TT gets a 2 for that move at the time and a 0 now

That’s a fair response. I don’t agree with every move either. But I have agreed with the aggressive style of this FO both in FA and the draft. Many of us on this board wanted a more liberal/aggressive approach and we got it with Gute.

I like him moving around the board into areas he sees as strengths as long as he doesn’t give up our future. I’m totally ok with using several day 3 selections on a position like “future franchise QB” or a Star Cover CB.. especially when we have 10+ selections to do it.

The exercise with J’aire that you scored a “10” was to show you how we can be ultra successful packaging. That’s all nothing more. Thank you for not avoiding it.

 

[OldSchool101]

I used to think the more darts (draft picks) you had, the better. However, I have changed that to "get a bigger dart, if you see the target you want in your sites". So if you see a guy dropping, that you really covet and feel he isn't going to drop enough for you to get him, use some of those later round, 1 out of 10 success rate, picks to make that bigger dart and go get him. Of course that strategy can fail too, we saw that with the sure pick Tackle from Indiana, Jason Spriggs. I think TT gave up like what....20 picks for him?

It felt like 20 yeah. Also Burks was an unusual trade up. I thought that was a slight reach at the time. At the time, both had stellar athletic makeups, but needed substantial refining. They are both like a batch of gold or silver that we can’t seem to get the impurities extracted.

 

[G0P4ckG0]

It felt like 20 yeah. Also Burks was an unusual trade up. I thought that was a slight reach at the time. At the time, both had stellar athletic makeups, but needed substantial refining. They are both like a batch of gold or silver that we can’t seem to get the impurities extracted.

Coaching plays a HUGE role in players like that and honestly we haven't had good defensive coaching in nearly 10 years. If Barry pans out, we can afford to "reach" on players if there is enough confidence in the staff to help those players achieve their fullest potential

 

[OldSchool101]

Coaching plays a HUGE role in players like that and honestly we haven't had good defensive coaching in nearly 10 years. If Barry pans out, we can afford to "reach" on players if there is enough confidence in the staff to help those players achieve their fullest potential

Barry should be bringing a group of his own D assistants and even a couple of stellar position coaches can absolutely make a huge impact on a position group. That where I do believe the rubber meets the road in getting production. Many players need motivation and leadership to bring out their best. That’s one thing that still hadn’t changed in sports.
PS. I love this recent change because it felt a little stagnant after what was a good start with Pettine.

 

[G0P4ckG0]

He should be bringing a group of his own D assistants and even a couple of stellar position coaches can absolutely make a huge impact on a position group. That where I do believe the rubber meets the road in getting production. Many players need motivation and leadership to bring out their best. That’s one thing that still hadn’t changed in sports.

I will go to my grave saying that Lombardi and Bo Ryan will forever be two of the greatest sports coaches of all-time. They were both able to take below average talent and turn them into stars in their own right in order to make the whole team successful.

 

[OldSchool101]

I will go to my grave saying that Lombardi and Bo Ryan will forever be two of the greatest sports coaches of all-time. They were both able to take below average talent and turn them into stars in their own right in order to make the whole team successful.

Coupled with that... our current FO has done a nice job of landing D talent earlier in the draft where it counts. Even Kamal Martin isn’t too bad there later day 3.
We were 1 above average DT 1 LB 1CB from putting it all together. If Stokes is the real deal? That leaves DT and LB. Tedarell Slayton is limited as far as late game conditioning, but he’s one good coach away from taking the #2 spot on this DL behind Clark. As one of the nations top recruited OL out of HS, Slayton needs experience. But he’s strong and quick. Squatted 600 pounds for 8 reps and moves quick like a Bear. Do not mess with his Cubs

I like our chances at LB. We have a DC who specializes in getting the most from that group. That will be a focus point and don’t be surprised to see him shuffle personnel to get the best talent on the field simultaneously, even if it involves position moves.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I will go to my grave saying that Lombardi and Bo Ryan will forever be two of the greatest sports coaches of all-time. They were both able to take below average talent and turn them into stars in their own right in order to make the whole team successful.

Bo really doesn't get enough credit for what he did at Wisconsin. Although **** Bennett got the Badgers program out of the perennial basement of the Big 10, Bo kept the momentum going and then some. In his 14 seasons there he was 364–130 (.737), always top 4 in the Big10, with 2 trips to the final 4 and one of those a final 2. Probably more incredible, the Badgers were in the NCAA Tourney every year while Bo was coaching. The most amazing part really wasn't just the record, but how he did it. Unlike some of the power house Basketball programs that always got the top High School Players, Bo had very little access to top players, once in awhile he was able to land a top State recruit (Butch and Dekker), but for the most part he made wine out of mud and coached his players up a ton. Frank Kaminsky is a good example of how a coach/program can really improve a player.

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[Sunshinepacker]

Coupled with that... our current FO has done a nice job of landing D talent earlier in the draft where it counts. Even Kamal Martin isn’t too bad there later day 3.
We were 1 above average DT 1 LB 1CB from putting it all together. If Stokes is the real deal? That leaves DT and LB. Tedarell Slayton is limited as far as late game conditioning, but he’s one good coach away from taking the #2 spot on this DL behind Clark. As one of the nations top recruited OL out of HS, Slayton needs experience. But he’s strong and quick. Squatted 600 pounds for 8 reps and moves quick like a Bear. Do not mess with his Cubs

I like our chances at LB. We have a DC who specializes in getting the most from that group. That will be a focus point and don’t be surprised to see him shuffle personnel to get the best talent on the field simultaneously, even if it involves position moves.

I like your optimism!