Packers Front Office Under Fire

[Poppa San]

The Packers having six or seven guys competing for two spots on the offensive line doesn't assure them of having quality options available though.

Why do people insist this idea would work for the WR group? We just need to draft/sign more WR's to win everything.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Why do people insist this idea would work for the WR group? We just need to draft/sign more WR's to win everything.

Without diving too deep, its quality over quantity IMO. I think some, myself included, feel that the draft and FA resources invested into the WR position has been very light in the last 8 or so years and thus it feels like an after thought or neglecting the position at times. With some of that made possible and workable due to Rodgers being such an elite talent. You look at those WR's that the Packers picked in rounds 1-3 in the last 20 or so years and almost all of them were gold. Can't really say that about the guys picked in round 4 and beyond.

Rodgers is really good, but there is only so much wine that he can make out of water.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

As Poker said, Its a fact...

you truly think that no in person ota, pre season games and etc, had no impact at all on ANY rookie, even more so than qb?

Then you are just being stubborn and want to "run interference”

I just didn't see COVID getting in the way of other teams drafting or planning exactly what they wanted.

Why is that this thinking is okay, but to say Love pushed Rodgers to train more, study more and prove he still had it isnt possible?

If love wasnt drafted, one "could say" Rodgers doesnt get pushed more, doesnt train as hard, and didnt "need" to prove he still had it.

It does work both ways weather you want to acknowledge it or not

Its as simple as—-drafting someone different than Love gets Packers to SB...and drafting Love made Rodgers perform at MVP level…We dont know the answer at all..

its all perspective and going back and forth on this one issue is fruiess IMO

Well, maybe. But here's the thing.

I'm fully prepared to look at the drafting of Love as a good thing. If he turns out to be great, then good, we can all credit Gute for having the foresight and willingness to take that risk just as Thompson did with Rodgers.

But there are some who seem to want to believe that drafting Love was the only right option the Packers could take at that moment and I'm just not buying it.

Captain WIMM's arguments are the ones I happen to agree with more, and that's just how I feel on the matter.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I just didn't see COVID getting in the way of other teams drafting or planning exactly what they wanted.

If you can't see how Covid effected teams and players, you really aren't looking very hard and I am afraid that convincing you of it or really just about anything, is a difficult task until you take your blinders off.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm fully prepared to look at the drafting of Love as a good thing. If he turns out to be great, then good, we can all credit Gute for having the foresight and willingness to take that risk just as Thompson did with Rodgers.

LOL....this is what we call hedging boys and girls.

"I am going to really rip on the pick now, but if it works out, I am going to be a part of that group giving kudos to Gute and enjoying "our" success."

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

LOL....this is what we call hedging boys and girls.

"I am going to really rip on the pick now, but if it works out, I am going to be a part of that group giving kudos to Gute and enjoying "our" success."

No, it's called being flexible and willing to acknowledge potential benefits to the Love pick. Something you're refusing to do by not acknowledging potential downsides.


Anyway, just gonna have to agree to disagree on the matter. What's done is done anyway, and hopefully we can work things out to get a few more years out of AR12 and one more SB win in the process and then have a smooth transition to JL. Everyone happy as a result.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Something you're refusing to do by not acknowledging potential downsides.

I don't expect you to remember all my posts, but please don't say something about me that is incorrect. I hated the pick the day of the draft, hated it! Actually hated the first 3 picks of that draft. However, the more I read about Love and the rationale behind selecting him, I was fine with it. Could it turn out to be a terrible pick? Yup. Do I have any answers on the Love pick yet? Nope. Nor do you, just that you think it potentially cost us a trip to the SB. Some think it might have motivated Rodgers to play better and is a smart investment. You are just mad because I won't acknowledge this theory that you are floating about the pick potentially being solely responsible for costing us a trip to a SB.

As far as downsides, I am well aware of them, as I am with any draft pick. I love the Amari Rodgers pick this year, love it. However, I know he might not be the player in the NFL that I though he was going to be and I fully expect that some day I might have to say "I was wrong, he didn't turn out like I thought he would."

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

I don't expect you to remember all my posts, but please don't say that when its wrong. I hated the pick the day of the draft, hated it! Actually hated the first 3 picks of that draft. However, the more I read about Love and the rationale behind selecting him, I was fine with it. Could it turn out to be a terrible pick? Yup. Do I have any answers on the Love pick yet? Nope. Nor do you, just that you think it potentially cost us a trip to the SB. Some think it might have motivated Rodgers to play better and is a smart investment. You are just mad because I won't acknowledge this theory that you are floating about the pick potentially being solely responsible for costing us a trip to a SB.

As far as downsides, I am well aware of them, as I am with any draft pick. I love the Amari Rodgers pick this year, love it. However, I know he might not be the player in the NFL that I though he was going to be and I fully expect that some day I might have to say "I was wrong, he didn't turn out like I thought he would."

Good, finally something I can agree on

 

[OldSchool101]

My wife says gray has 50 shades. She read it in some book.

I’ve noticed you’ve gotten a little more submissive lately. Don’t worry I won’t say even 1 more word about it, not to anyone my lips are more sealed than Gomer Pile..
I can be trusted.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Some peoples perspective seems to forget that when decisions are made, you don't have the benefit of a crystal ball.

There was absolutely no need for a crystal ball to figure out Love won't have any impact during his rookie season though.

Why do people insist this idea would work for the WR group? We just need to draft/sign more WR's to win everything.

In my opinion the idea applies to wide receiver as well. Just like any other position on the roster.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

There was absolutely no need for a crystal ball to figure out Love won't have any impact during his rookie season though.

I guess since you are open to speculation, let's speculate that the Packers were hopeful that Love would never have to take a meaningful snap in 2020, since that would probably most likely mean Rodgers had gotten injured. So what is the point of them knowing or not knowing that when they drafted him? I would be way more concerned with their decision making abilities if they expected him to contribute in 2020. Further, do you think there is a remote chance that they actually were speculating that he was a great value pick, an investment that might pay off big dividends in the future AND possibly pay off immediately with the motivation that it fueled in Rodgers?

Why haven't you brought up the selection of Gary as to the reason the Packers didn't go to the 2019 Super Bowl or even last years? How about Savage? He is a good player, but surely there were guys that would have been better and possibly have been that missing link to a SB? Josh Jones Pick? On and on. If the Packers are expected to draft only players that will be THAT player to help them make the jump to the following years SB, you have some really pie in the sky management at work.

Could another player, other than Love have made the difference in the NFCCG? Sure, but so could any one of the 40+ players that played that day. The Packers seemed to be more than comfortable with their 2020 starters going into the 2020 draft and it gave them some flexibility to draft for the future. Personally, I don't think they were wrong, well at least not until we see it all play out.

 

[PikeBadger]

A significant portion of the fan base believes in the draft need, not player concept. It’s easy to see why. All the national media and so called “draft experts” continually spout this as well.
Packers management believes in the draft player/natural athletic ability concept.
The Draft immediate need crowd is always going to hate our off season moves.

 

[easyk83]

LOL....this is what we call hedging boys and girls.

"I am going to really rip on the pick now, but if it works out, I am going to be a part of that group giving kudos to Gute and enjoying "our" success."

If Gute approaches the position as one requiring multiple picks to fill(which it does) and succeeds with either a second rounder in the next couple of years, a later pick or another first rounder which BTW is the reason why Gute took Love last year so that he could be evaluated in addition to developed and likely realized that he would need to take multiple cracks. PFC could still say I told you so, even if Gute drafted an all pro talent with a later QB selection.

It's easiest to find a QB when you dont need one.

 

[easyk83]

A significant portion of the fan base believes in the draft need, not player concept. It’s easy to see why. All the national media and so called “draft experts” continually spout this as well.
Packers management believes in the draft player/natural athletic ability concept.
The Draft immediate need crowd is always going to hate our off season moves.

Drafting to immediate need has a history of getting us sub par players like Datone Jones, Ahmad Carroll, John Michaels etc.

But the one thing that I find absolutely precious is how many fans take public draft boards, like draft dog and walter CBS Sports NFL.com, as if they are gospel. The reality is that even a mediocre D&D team makes all of those boards look like a joke in terms of resources and process.

To what extent does an analyst or blogger understand GBs scheme, or offseason schematic adjust, do they understand what the position coaches want in a player, have they performed a tenth of the player analysis that NFL scouts and team coaching staffs perform on collegiate players? Were they there for the interviews?

The most moronic thing I read from fans is the they could have drafted him later bit. Well based on what? Well these trash blogs I read that frankly suck next to NFL team scouting and development.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

So let's leave it alone, 'cause we can't see eye to eye

There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy

There's only you and me and we just disagree


Dave Mason

 

[easyk83]

Consider this link,

"As the chart above shows, Kiper and McShay have proven to be equally inefficient judges of talent over the past five years. Neither expert’s rankings were a particularly good predictor of how a player would perform compared to the rest of his class. In fact, the average errors listed above suggest that the gurus’ rankings are off by around 35 spots when compared to the player’s actual performance. In other words, a player Kiper or McShay ranked as the 15th-best player in the draft is most likely to actually have been the 40th-best based on CAV to this point in their careers. The root mean square errors (RMSE) imply that Kiper is very slightly less prone to extreme errors than his ESPN counterpart, but that difference is not significant. RMSE severely punishes large errors, so having a comparatively lower RMSE implies that one makes fewer huge errors. However, like the average errors, the RMSE for each scout is enormous."


McShay and Kiper bad at their jobs.

 

[Poppa San]

Consider this link,

https://harvardsportsanalysis.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/equally-inaccurate-an-analysis-of-mel-kiper-jr-and-todd-mcshays-draft-rankings/

I would if it worked.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It's easiest to find a QB when you dont need one.

I don't think it is ever "easy" to find a QB, just less pressure to find one, when you don't need one. Also, when you are a team that is notoriously picking late in every round, unless you want to completely mortgage your future to move up into the top 5 picks, you need to weigh your options and take some gambles if you see a decent option within reach.

Many of these teams you see picking the highest rated QB's in the top 5 picks are doing so, because they had a pretty crappy year due to not having a top QB. Now the Packers could have sat back and waited on trying to find Rodgers eventual replacement, but how long do they wait? If they miss the window or an opportunity, what next?

 

[easyk83]

I would if it worked.

try it now

 

[gopkrs]

So let's leave it alone, 'cause we can't see eye to eye

There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy

There's only you and me and we just disagree


Dave Mason

I saw Dave Mason about 5 years ago. Wow, he was still really good. He sounded the same. Singing and playing.

 

[OldSchool101]

For the most part I respect our FO and their methods. Although when we set a strategy we should be able to bend that strategy on the fly. Meaning we shouldn’t get blinders on.
We knew we had most of a pretty successful roster coming back and we only planned on keeping Rodgers a couple more seasons (cmon we all know the truth).
So that philosophy of drafting player vs position should bend a little when we’re in the twilight years of a HOF QB. Those decisions are not all mutually exclusive, sometimes it’s a fine line and that’s where you go position.

All that said. Did anyone remember seeing the youtube video breaking down Jordan Love pre-Draft? I came across it last night by accident while reviewing our draft class. The panel of 3 had some disagreement about Love being top 6, between Tua and J.Herbert
I had never seen that before. That impressed me.

It’s just my opinion, but I think the GB FO had Love ranked somewhere in that top half of day 1 (6-16 overall). They probably couldn’t believe he was still there well into the 20’s. Had we had a #20 overall type selection, I believe we would’ve still taken Love. At #26 overall he was gift wrapped.

One day I’d like to know where GB had him ranked pre-draft.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I don't think it is ever "easy" to find a QB, just less pressure to find one, when you don't need one. Also, when you are a team that is notoriously picking late in every round, unless you want to completely mortgage your future to move up into the top 5 picks, you need to weigh your options and take some gambles if you see a decent option within reach.

Many of these teams you see picking the highest rated QB's in the top 5 picks are doing so, because they had a pretty crappy year due to not having a top QB. Now the Packers could have sat back and waited on trying to find Rodgers eventual replacement, but how long do they wait? If they miss the window or an opportunity, what next?

If you miss the window then you're consigned to a couple of bad seasons until you find another QB. I'll happily take 2-3 bad seasons for a Super Bowl.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

If you miss the window then you're consigned to a couple of bad seasons until you find another QB. I'll happily take 2-3 bad seasons for a Super Bowl.

Why can't you have both, like the Packers did in 2010? How have the Bears done on their quest for a solid QB since their last SB win?

Its no easy feat to win a SB, nor is it that easy to find a FHOF QB. We see teams like Jacksonville, The Browns and the Jets, as well as a few others constantly chasing their tails to do so and they can't even seem to come close to either.

The Packers had solid enough teams for the last 2 years to have made the SB, they just happen to miss out in the NFCCG both years. Gute's trying to look ahead and prepare for Rodgers departure didn't seem to make them any worse.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I guess since you are open to speculation, let's speculate that the Packers were hopeful that Love would never have to take a meaningful snap in 2020, since that would probably most likely mean Rodgers had gotten injured. So what is the point of them knowing or not knowing that when they drafted him? I would be way more concerned with their decision making abilities if they expected him to contribute in 2020. Further, do you think there is a remote chance that they actually were speculating that he was a great value pick, an investment that might pay off big dividends in the future AND possibly pay off immediately with the motivation that it fueled in Rodgers?

First of all I believe the talk about Love motivating Rodgers to perform at an MVP level is a whole load of BS by fans trying to justify selecting him in the first place.

In addition I'm quite sure the front office was aware Love wasn't going to play during his rookie season, that's why they shouldn't have drafted him.

It's possible, albeit unlikely, that he ends up being the next great quarterback in line to start for the Packers. But with the team coming off making the NFCCG the front office should have tried to fully take advantage of the one already on the roster.

Why haven't you brought up the selection of Gary as to the reason the Packers didn't go to the 2019 Super Bowl or even last years? How about Savage? He is a good player, but surely there were guys that would have been better and possibly have been that missing link to a SB? Josh Jones Pick? On and on. If the Packers are expected to draft only players that will be THAT player to help them make the jump to the following years SB, you have some really pie in the sky management at work.

The Packers seemed to be more than comfortable with their 2020 starters going into the 2020 draft and it gave them some flexibility to draft for the future. Personally, I don't think they were wrong, well at least not until we see it all play out.

It's true that not every draft pick works put as planned. Once again, the Packers didn't find themselves in a situation in which it was smart to use their first rounder on a player who was guaranteed to not have an immediate impact.

I didn't like the selection of Gary at first either as the Packers had just spent a significant of money to sign the Smiths but at least he was supposed to receive some playing time from the get-go.

The Draft immediate need crowd is always going to hate our off season moves.

Gutekunst has drafted for immediate need as well. It worked out great with Alexander, Savage and Jenkins. There was no reason to change his approach last year.

If Gute approaches the position as one requiring multiple picks to fill(which it does) and succeeds with either a second rounder in the next couple of years, a later pick or another first rounder which BTW is the reason why Gute took Love last year so that he could be evaluated in addition to developed and likely realized that he would need to take multiple cracks.

Gutekunst better was sure Love was a prospect too good to pass up. It would have been a terrible mistake to trade up for him just for the sake of drafting a quarterback as it might take several tries to get it right.

Its no easy feat to win a SB, nor is it that easy to find a FHOF QB.

That's why the Packers should take advantage of having a HOF QB as long as they can.

Gute's trying to look ahead and prepare for Rodgers departure didn't seem to make them any worse.

It didn't make them any better though either.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Why can't you have both, like the Packers did in 2010? How have the Bears done on their quest for a solid QB since their last SB win?

Its no easy feat to win a SB, nor is it that easy to find a FHOF QB. We see teams like Jacksonville, The Browns and the Jets, as well as a few others constantly chasing their tails to do so and they can't even seem to come close to either.

The Packers had solid enough teams for the last 2 years to have made the SB, they just happen to miss out in the NFCCG both years. Gute's trying to look ahead and prepare for Rodgers departure didn't seem to make them any worse.

You say this and yet people are arguing that ticking off Rodgers was fine because Love is a certified elite QB-to-be. I would rather go "all-in" a little more often than the Packers have and trust the odds that over the last 25+ years they would have won an extra Super Bowl or two at the cost of having a couple of non-playoff years thrown in (though I don't think teams with QBs like Favre and Rodgers miss the playoffs that often even on bad teams).