Official studs and duds Viking game

[Mondio]

It has generally been true for quite a while that Rodgers has been making the OL look a lot worse than they are. Last year, 45 of 49 sacks of Rodgers came after 2.5 seconds. He holds the ball too long.

Even against the Bears, at least two of the sacks were straight up on Rodgers. I timed them all. Granted, hand timing isn't perfect, but I erred on the quick side (i.e. going with the lower numbers). This is what I came up with.

Sack 1: ~4.5 seconds
Sack 2: ~2.3 seconds
Sack 3: ~2.7 seconds
Sack 4: ~2.8 seconds
Sack 5: ~4.5 seconds

Sacks 1 and 5 are easily on Rodgers. If an OL protects for 4+ seconds against an elite front on the road, you can't blame them for a sack.

Sack 2 is definitely on the the OL-- specifically Billy Turner, who got wrecked by Khalil Mack.

Despite it being a quicker sack, I put #3 on Rodgers who had a an open hot read off of the blitz. He looked at it, didn't pull the trigger, and dropped his eyes. When a team overloads a side with a blitz, you have to hit your quick read and make them pay.

Sack #4 is the most borderline to me. This would be the bull rush on Bakhtiari. Graham, the outlet, stumbled out of his stance and wasn't presenting a clear target in a timely manner. Without all-22, I can't see what the receivers are doing. I'll put this one on Bakhtiari.

So even in that game, against that front, I think 3/5 sacks are clearly Rodgers' fault. He's holding the ball too long, egregiously so in some cases, and making his line look a lot worse than what it is.

that's fine, but Rodgers holding the ball is the reason the offense has been poor? or was that game because they couldn't even sniff a ****ing yard running the ball, they didn't have to blitz anyone to get pressure and could flood passing lanes.

There's more to offense than passing the ball

 

[gbgary]

more stats?

i just wanted to post the link it came from.

 

[greengold]

stats lie. They were much better in week 2 than in week 1 and it showed in offensive production. But Week1? Give me a ******* break. you have to be blind to think the offensive line was remotely adequate that game. someone was getting whipped on almost every play, and badly. Coupled with not being able to run the ball. It was great LOL

Actually, that CHI game I must have reviewed about 3-4 times. Your thinking was right on with my initial thoughts as well. It was horrific OL play through the 1st Quarter. They also coughed up a bunch of pressures through the remainder. However, they had their great moments as well, allowing for some sharp work by Rodgers and his receivers to score 10 points on the Bears D. It wasn't all bad.

I thought they played far better in week 2 v. MIN. Came out with a mission. Bakhtiari was exceptional last Sunday, after what had to have been one of his worst weeks ever. I believe Lane Taylor may have lost his starting job last Sunday v. MIN. That was a rough display by Taylor. Elgton Jenkins should be starting v. DEN. I firmly believe the OL will only get better as we move along, and so will our Offense as a whole.

I would have reviewed the MIN game, but my recording failed... OUCH! Really wanted to see that again. Oh, well. Onto DEN!

 

[swhitset]

more stats?

How about watch this?

refresh your memory LOL

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I have to call a disagree on that one... Dante didn’t read a stat line... he described each play based on watching it and gave an opinion of the outcome. That being said... that Bears defense was wreaking havoc and I’m not sure i’d blame anyone but them for that lol.

 

[greengold]

swhitset, No doubt, it was a great Front 7 they were going against in a hostile environment. Not a whole lot was working, but, Aaron and the O came through for 2 scores. Turned out to be enough to get the W. There was a combination of top talent our OL faced, and they were fired up, along with our OL seriously underperforming, and Rodgers hanging onto the ball not making throws within the timing design, while also maybe trying to do too much, failing to hit check downs on a number of occasions. New system. Returning to face a team that broke his leg last season. Had some understandable jitters. Looks like they're starting to move along together under LaFleur's guidance. Let's see what Sunday brings. I believe the entire Offense will start showing a lot more promise over these next few weeks.

 

[PikeBadger]

It has generally been true for quite a while that Rodgers has been making the OL look a lot worse than they are. Last year, 45 of 49 sacks of Rodgers came after 2.5 seconds. He holds the ball too long.

Even against the Bears, at least two of the sacks were straight up on Rodgers. I timed them all. Granted, hand timing isn't perfect, but I erred on the quick side (i.e. going with the lower numbers). This is what I came up with.

Sack 1: ~4.5 seconds
Sack 2: ~2.3 seconds
Sack 3: ~2.7 seconds
Sack 4: ~2.8 seconds
Sack 5: ~4.5 seconds

Sacks 1 and 5 are easily on Rodgers. If an OL protects for 4+ seconds against an elite front on the road, you can't blame them for a sack.

Sack 2 is definitely on the the OL-- specifically Billy Turner, who got wrecked by Khalil Mack.

Despite it being a quicker sack, I put #3 on Rodgers who had a an open hot read off of the blitz. He looked at it, didn't pull the trigger, and dropped his eyes. When a team overloads a side with a blitz, you have to hit your quick read and make them pay.

Sack #4 is the most borderline to me. This would be the bull rush on Bakhtiari. Graham, the outlet, stumbled out of his stance and wasn't presenting a clear target in a timely manner. Without all-22, I can't see what the receivers are doing. I'll put this one on Bakhtiari.

So even in that game, against that front, I think 3/5 sacks are clearly Rodgers' fault. He's holding the ball too long, egregiously so in some cases, and making his line look a lot worse than what it is.

Same old stuff. He’s sooooooo slow to adapt and change his mindset. This has been going on for years. All the way back to 2015 at least. Guess it’s just his personality. Wish he was more adaptable like Brady.

I’m clearly in the camp that Rodgers and McFleur are responsible for the slow start of the offense.

I think the run blocking by the OL in the Vikings game was superb.

 

[Do7]

swhitset, No doubt, it was a great Front 7 they were going against in a hostile environment. Not a whole lot was working, but, Aaron and the O came through for 2 scores. Turned out to be enough to get the W. There was a combination of top talent our OL faced, and they were fired up, along with our OL seriously underperforming, and Rodgers hanging onto the ball not making throws within the timing design, while also maybe trying to do too much, failing to hit check downs on a number of occasions. New system. Returning to face a team that broke his leg last season. Had some understandable jitters. Looks like they're starting to move along together under LaFleur's guidance. Let's see what Sunday brings. I believe the entire Offense will start showing a lot more promise over these next few weeks.

Also let's also consider that The Packers were in the Chicago territory but got called back due to penalties. So we've seen flashes of the offense, but with the combination of the Bears' defense and penalties, we didn't end up scoring as much as we would've liked. We just have to play a complete 4 quarters, and fortunately, lot of football left to be played.

 

[greengold]

Same old stuff. He’s sooooooo slow to adapt and change his mindset. This has been going on for years. All the way back to 2015 at least. Guess it’s just his personality. Wish he was more adaptable like Brady.

I’m clearly in the camp that Rodgers and McFleur are responsible for the slow start of the offense.

I think the run blocking by the OL in the Vikings game was superb.

It was going to be a slow start no matter what. Especially so with a new system. I'm not making any judgements on LaFleur until after week 6 in terms of how our O is working.

As for individual play, well, we've seen some hiccups. I believe most will iron themselves out just fine.

 

[Dantés]

that's fine, but Rodgers holding the ball is the reason the offense has been poor? or was that game because they couldn't even sniff a ******* yard running the ball, they didn't have to blitz anyone to get pressure and could flood passing lanes.

There's more to offense than passing the ball

Rodgers holding the ball is one of multiple reasons that the offense has been poor. Obviously an inability to run effectively in week one was another. They did blitz at times to create pressure, and Rodgers didn't react effectively.

 

[Dantés]

Same old stuff. He’s sooooooo slow to adapt and change his mindset. This has been going on for years. All the way back to 2015 at least. Guess it’s just his personality. Wish he was more adaptable like Brady.

I’m clearly in the camp that Rodgers and McFleur are responsible for the slow start of the offense.

I think the run blocking by the OL in the Vikings game was superb.

Rodgers is slow to adapt in this way, but he also used to beat the blitz more effectively than he has in more recent seasons.

 

[greengold]

Running game will take off big time once the blocking becomes more solid. Also must consider both Front 7s we faced through the first 2 games were some of the NFL's best. I firmly believe we will see a lot of the bad numbers/plays we've seen thus far flip to the good side games 3-6 and beyond.

 

[Mondio]

Rodgers holding the ball is one of multiple reasons that the offense has been poor. Obviously an inability to run effectively in week one was another. They did blitz at times to create pressure, and Rodgers didn't react effectively.

He does hold it sometimes and sometimes it's bad and sometimes it's good. and we were better up front week 2 than 1 and expect we'll be better in 3 than 2 and better and better.

But I'm calling absolute BS on any stat that tries to tell me we have the 2nd best offensive line in the NFL after watching them get their ***** handed to them play after play after play in 50% of their games this year LOL

The blitz stuff will get better too. New coach, new offense, lots new. It will get better and both ends of the equation, pass thrower and most catchers have work to do. So do the guys in the middle.

 

[PackerDNA]

Rodgers is slow to adapt in this way, but he also used to beat the blitz more effectively than he has in more recent seasons.

He's also gotten slower in the feet and legs. Nothing major yet, but he clearly does not have the athleticism and quickness that he once had.

 

[Do7]

Rodgers holding the ball is one of multiple reasons that the offense has been poor. Obviously an inability to run effectively in week one was another. They did blitz at times to create pressure, and Rodgers didn't react effectively.

Ok I get Rodgers has a tendency to hold on to the ball, but let's dial it back a bit shall we? Rodgers will hold on the ball a bit longer on occasions, but I think this whole thing with him holding the ball is a bit overblown. I don't see how he can be holding on to the ball as long when the Oline isn't necessarily that good to begin with.

 

[GleefulGary]

Ok I get Rodgers has a tendency to hold on to the ball, but let's dial it back a bit shall we? Rodgers will hold on the ball a bit longer on occasions, but I think this whole thing with him holding the ball is a bit overblown. I don't see how he can be holding on to the ball as long when the Oline isn't necessarily that good to begin with.

You know they time it, right?

There's actual data behind it.

 

[Do7]

You know they time it, right?

There's actual data behind it.

I am aware, but numbers don't tell the whole story.

 

[greengold]

Ok I get Rodgers has a tendency to hold on to the ball, but let's dial it back a bit shall we? Rodgers will hold on the ball a bit longer on occasions, but I think this whole thing with him holding the ball is a bit overblown. I don't see how he can be holding on to the ball as long when the Oline isn't necessarily that good to begin with.

He actually has been missing check downs, or rather, ignoring them too often. Those of late have turned into more sacks than the big plays he's looking for. That has been pretty plain to see.

I think LaFleur is just now getting into his coaching space with Aaron Rodgers, who said he wants to be coached. This kind of stuff was going to happen, and it has. Now we get a chance to see how/if it is addressed. I'm sure it will be. Rodgers, love the guy, is insanely competitive, but now must realize the game is changing for him, and he needs to adjust if he wants to prolong his career in a successful manner. Brady does it all the time. Aaron needs to now.

 

[GleefulGary]

Okay, first off, as a pass blocking unit, the Packers are pretty dang good. Watch the rest of the league for some perspective.

On the edges of the OL, we are very good. Inside, we've had some more issues. But still, overall, easily better than average. Upper quarter of the league for sure.

If people don't see that Rodgers has a tendency to hold onto the ball too long, then I'm just not sure what they're watching. The tape backs it up. The data backs it up. He eschews a lot of shorter passes trying to get big plays. When he was younger and more mobile, it worked really well. Now...not as much. He's still good, but obviously still capable of making mistakes, and he definitely is making mistakes. It's undeniable.


TL/DR: It's pretty obvious to see that Rodgers is at least partially to blame for a good number of his sacks.

 

[Mondio]

You know they time it, right?

There's actual data behind it.

They do, though i've never cared to look into it that much. My eyes can tell me he holds it sometimes and it ends well and poorly at times. But they also show me there aren't clean pockets a lot of the time so far. So 4 of 5 guys do well, but one gets blown up up the middle. that's 80% protection wins, is that a good offensive line? what's a loss? Losing leverage? allowing pressure? is allowing pocket to be pushed from the right the same as missing your block up the middle or getting run right on your ***? I don't know how they figure these things, and i'm not going to rehash the past 2 seasons, but these past 2 games, even with improvement from all sorts in the 2nd game, how someone could say with a straight face this offensive line is somehow the 2nd best in the league.

 

[Do7]

Okay, first off, as a pass blocking unit, the Packers are pretty dang good. Watch the rest of the league for some perspective.

On the edges of the OL, we are very good. Inside, we've had some more issues. But still, overall, easily better than average. Upper quarter of the league for sure.

If people don't see that Rodgers has a tendency to hold onto the ball too long, then I'm just not sure what they're watching. The tape backs it up. The data backs it up. He eschews a lot of shorter passes trying to get big plays. When he was younger and more mobile, it worked really well. Now...not as much. He's still good, but obviously still capable of making mistakes, and he definitely is making mistakes. It's undeniable.


TL/DR: It's pretty obvious to see that Rodgers is at least partially to blame for a good number of his sacks.

I never denied the fact that Rodgers holds on to the ball, I just feel like it's a bit overblown, particular these past couple years due to circumstances. Rodgers wasn't always like this, or at least I certainly don't think so.

 

[Dantés]

Ok I get Rodgers has a tendency to hold on to the ball, but let's dial it back a bit shall we? Rodgers will hold on the ball a bit longer on occasions, but I think this whole thing with him holding the ball is a bit overblown. I don't see how he can be holding on to the ball as long when the Oline isn't necessarily that good to begin with.

He took 45 sacks in a season that came after 2.5 seconds. I don't think it's overblown.

 

[greengold]

Okay, first off, as a pass blocking unit, the Packers are pretty dang good. Watch the rest of the league for some perspective.

On the edges of the OL, we are very good. Inside, we've had some more issues. But still, overall, easily better than average. Upper quarter of the league for sure.

If people don't see that Rodgers has a tendency to hold onto the ball too long, then I'm just not sure what they're watching. The tape backs it up. The data backs it up. He eschews a lot of shorter passes trying to get big plays. When he was younger and more mobile, it worked really well. Now...not as much. He's still good, but obviously still capable of making mistakes, and he definitely is making mistakes. It's undeniable.


TL/DR: It's pretty obvious to see that Rodgers is at least partially to blame for a good number of his sacks.

Totally agree. Totally. The change is coming. LaFleur will make it happen, I'm sure. They both seem to have a great working relationship, and I do think there is a bunch of stuff for LaFleur to "unteach." Years and YEARS of poor coaching, scheming will do that. Rodgers will bring it home. So will the OL. Once they latch onto being able to aggressively run block for more of the time, I think they will love it.

Aaron Rodgers is a bright guy and will see what he's been doing in the film room, and I'm confident he will adjust accordingly.

 

[Dantés]

He does hold it sometimes and sometimes it's bad and sometimes it's good. and we were better up front week 2 than 1 and expect we'll be better in 3 than 2 and better and better.

But I'm calling absolute BS on any stat that tries to tell me we have the 2nd best offensive line in the NFL after watching them get their ***** handed to them play after play after play in 50% of their games this year LOL

The blitz stuff will get better too. New coach, new offense, lots new. It will get better and both ends of the equation, pass thrower and most catchers have work to do. So do the guys in the middle.

I would expect things to improve. And I don't have the context of watching other OL play to say where they should be ranked. But I do firmly believe that in recent seasons, Rodgers has made his offensive line look worse than they really are.

For example, Philip Rivers was sacked 17 fewer times in 2018 with far worse personnel on the offensive line. He did a better job of getting the ball out.

So far this year, Rodgers' 3.1 seconds to throw is the 2nd slowest in the league. Last year, his average of 2.95 seconds was 5th slowest.

 

[Mondio]

past has passed, and I'd agree for the most part

I expect his time to release to get better as the offense works more together and the timing is better. But in 2 games, I think they've only been acceptable in 1 of them as a unit.

 

[Dantés]

past has passed, and I'd agree for the most part

I expect his time to release to get better as the offense works more together and the timing is better. But in 2 games, I think they've only been acceptable in 1 of them as a unit.

I would actually agree with you. While I obviously pointed out that three of the sacks against the Bears were on Rodgers' more than the line, I don't deem their overall performance in that game to be acceptable. But I am also speaking more generally about the trend of Rodgers holding the ball.