The Weakest Link: Outside Linebacker

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As for the unit it really tough to judge the pass rush when you're coverage is that bad. Perry produced rush, and a platoon of Matthews Peppers produced 12.5 sacks which combined with Perry's 11 is pretty good production from the position group given our putrid secondary. CMIII showed more natural ability than many acknowledge last year for the couple of games that he was healthyish and heck he even got pressure and hits against Atlanta and the playoffs. Truth is I think our pass rush helped cover up how awful our secondary really was, which is saying something.

I agree that it was extremely tough for the pass rush to put pressure on opposing quarterbacks last season because the secondary mostly struggled to cover receivers for a extended period of time. Nevertheless, while the unit put up a decent number of sacks it failed to constantly create pressure.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Brooks might be a smart pickup for the Packers.

Smart for their fans or TT? ;)

I sort of half expect TT to make moves like that at this time of year, but trying to remember the last time a Vet was picked up late August, early September? James Jones 2 years ago is the only one popping into my head.

With Cap space available and a team that appears to have a legit run at the Super Bowl, the next 2 week IS the time to try and strengthen the roster top to bottom and if it means cutting a few UDFA development guys and picking up a vet like Brooks, do it.
 
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I sort of half expect TT to make moves like that at this time of year, but trying to remember the last time a Vet was picked up late August, early September? James Jones 2 years ago is the only one popping into my head.

The Packers claimed punter Jacob Schum off waivers at the end of August last year. Other than that and Thompson signing James Jones two seasons ago quarterback Seneca Wallace was the last veteran signed shortly before the start of the regular season who played some meaningful snaps in a game in 2013.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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The Packers claimed punter Jacob Schum off waivers at the end of August last year. Other than that and Thompson signing James Jones two seasons ago quarterback Seneca Wallace was the last veteran signed shortly before the start of the regular season who played some meaningful snaps in a game in 2013.
Which is kind of how I remember things at this point in most years......business as usual and march ahead with the guys you have. I would still like to see some veteran depth brought in at a few positions, but I am not holding my breath that it will happen.
 
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Which is kind of how I remember things at this point in most years......business as usual and march ahead with the guys you have. I would still like to see some veteran depth brought in at a few positions, but I am not holding my breath that it will happen.

It would definitely be smart to add some veteran presence at outside linebacker and possibly some other positions. I don´t expect Thompson to make such a move either though.
 
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Eh. We won a Super Bowl with him being a key part of the team.

Sucks that we didn't get a proper second contract out of him (proper as in ignoring the 2x 1-year rental deals), but he did play 6 years for us.

You want more, but his was not a bad career.
Raji had a good rookie year, peaked in year 2 with an outstanding season, and then went into gradual decline. Capers burned him out with 75-85% snap counts over multiple years. By the time it sunk in that maybe his snap count ought to be reduced to 50 - 60%, it was too late, the intensity had gotten beaten out of him. After the season ending injury he was looking for one more paycheck and then the door.

I don't think he had a good career. I thing he had one near-great year sandwiched between two good ones, and that's about it.
 
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HardRightEdge

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The OLBs will be fine...if nobody gets injured. Otherwise, it's not a good look. Maybe Biegel will show us something if he ever gets on the field. I still think he looks more like an ILB.
 
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The OLBs will be fine...if nobody gets injured. Otherwise, it's not a good look. Maybe Biegel will show us something if he ever gets on the field. I still think he looks more like an ILB.

I would really like to share your optimism about the outside linebackers but even if Matthews and Perry stay healthy all season the unit definitely lacks quality depth.
 
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HardRightEdge

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I would really like to share your optimism about the outside linebackers but even if Matthews and Perry stay healthy all season the unit definitely lacks quality depth.
Well, I look at this way. Matthews and Perry are probably good for 70% snap counts if they stay healthy. Once you subtract out garbage time, end of half out of scoring position, the occasional blowout, you've subtracted a bunch of non-critical snaps out of the remaining 30%. That leaves the occasional series where a starter just needs a blow or gets whacked especially hard and needs to step out for a bit. So, yeah, there's vulnerability there, but if the DBs are doing their jobs Capers will bring his blitzes and if the OLBs are not getting in there pressure can still be brought. The backups are not terrible in the run game, not good but not terrible, so you scrape by a bit there.

The problem is we can't expect Matthews and Perry to play all 16 games, let along a full 70% snap count in each. Even if they don't miss any games, as unlikely as that is, odds are at some point they'll play a little banged up on reduced counts. So, my comment had a mix of optimism with a bit of sarcasm. In the final analysis, though, the teams that advance tend to be those light on injuries to key players, or at least lucky enough to have their best depth where injuries strike.

So, yeah, it is essential these guys stay healthy. But we could say the same about Nelson or Bakhtiari or that Bulaga's injury is not more serious than presented. Or Daniels. Maybe even Clark. We could be saying the same about King pretty soon. These are guys with all appearances of something less than quality depth who play key roles. No need to discuss the QB...can't do anything about that.
 
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Well, I look at this way. Matthews and Perry are probably good for 70% snap counts if they stay healthy. Once you subtract out garbage time, end of half out of scoring position, the occasional blowout, you've subtracted a bunch of non-critical snaps out of the remaining 30%. That leaves the occasional series where a starter just needs a blow or gets whacked especially hard and needs to step out for a bit. So, yeah, there's vulnerability there, but if the DBs are doing their jobs Capers will bring his blitzes and if the OLBs are not getting in there pressure can still be brought. The backups are not terrible in the run game, not good but not terrible, so you scrape by a bit there.

The problem is we can't expect Matthews and Perry to play all 16 games, let along a full 70% snap count in each. Even if they don't miss any games, as unlikely as that is, odds are at some point they'll play a little banged up on reduced counts. So, my comment had a mix of optimism with a bit of sarcasm.

Another thing to consider when evaluating the outside linebackers entering this season is that Matthews definitely has to improve his performance when healthy for the position group to have a chance to be successful in 2017.
 

Patriotplayer90

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Another thing to consider when evaluating the outside linebackers entering this season is that Matthews definitely has to improve his performance when healthy for the position group to have a chance to be successful in 2017.
I think we have to accept that the old Matthews is gone, and the new one sucks.
 

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You know I was genuinely impressed with what Kyler Fackrell showed during the regular season last year, and thought that he showed some really nice quickness around the edge... from looking at old articles it seems that he sucked last year in camp too. Perhaps Mr. Fackrell just isn't much of a practice field player and he has some gamer in him? The talent is definitely there but maybe he needs the game situation to bring out some of the intensity needed to succeed at the position.

I wouldnt bet the farm on any notions of Kyler being a gamer, but some players need the extra adrenaline to really play at their best.
 

rodell330

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The OLBs will be fine...if nobody gets injured. Otherwise, it's not a good look. Maybe Biegel will show us something if he ever gets on the field. I still think he looks more like an ILB.

No way are the olbs fine. I guarantee you that at some point Clay Matthews and Perry end up hurt...then what? Matthews is a shell of himself so we can't expect him to take over a game so....I say sign Brooks and see what he has in the tank.
 

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Fackrell and Elliot would have a hard time making the roster for most teams. Even when they don't get to the qb they are not creating pressure. Neither player has shown anything in the first two preseason games and it doesnt get easier from here on out. No question TT needs to bring in a veteren at both olb and ol. This team has great starting talent but the worst depth in many years. Outside of safety, no position group looks like it can sustain injuries and keep the team afloat. This team looks primed for a Super Bowl run or a horrendous injury plagued 7-9 or 6-10 type of season.
 

Patriotplayer90

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Fackrell and Elliot would have a hard time making the roster for most teams. Even when they don't get to the qb they are not creating pressure. Neither player has shown anything in the first two preseason games and it doesnt get easier from here on out. No question TT needs to bring in a veteren at both olb and ol. This team has great starting talent but the worst depth in many years. Outside of safety, no position group looks like it can sustain injuries and keep the team afloat. This team looks primed for a Super Bowl run or a horrendous injury plagued 7-9 or 6-10 type of season.
Fackrell had a higher pass rushing productivity than Matthews.
 
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No way are the olbs fine. I guarantee you that at some point Clay Matthews and Perry end up hurt...then what? Matthews is a shell of himself so we can't expect him to take over a game so....I say sign Brooks and see what he has in the tank.
You ignored the second half of my post. I said the OLBs will not be fine if injury strikes. As for "taking over a game", I don't expect that out of either of them, but I don't consider it to be necessary if improvements are made in other areas, and I like what I'm seeing from the D-backfield. This doesn't need to be a great defense, and it won't be. It just needs to not have glaring weaknesses in a position group that opponents can pick on whenever they need it.

Frankly, why we would we be concerned about OLB depth more than, say, OT or WR depth needs some explaining. There's a big drop off at those positions as well. And who's the 5th. D-lineman?

Signing Brooks for a couple of mil? Sure, why not, in the overall scheme it's not going to make that much difference. Besides, when Capers tells him pocket contain is Job #1 and spin and swim moves off the snap or other free lancing is prohibited, will he start throwing his helmet?

I don't think many people have observed how the Capers pass rush is supposed to work. Job #1 of the OLB is to not give the QB an escape route. Running around the back of the pocket or taking an inside rush is prohibited unless the play call is scripted to have somebody looping or blitzing the edge. The way this is supposed to work is inside blitzes bring pressure to move the QB off his spot. A step or two throws off the OTs blocking angles creating opportunity to work off the block and come laterally to the inside. OLBs have to play eyes on the QB throughout; the concept is he will have the advantage since the OT has his back to the play. You don't see the OLBs dip and rip very often where eyes are off the QB. When you see Perry do it a few times a year you scratch you head asking, "why not more often?" Well, this is why. The OT's set or some other bit of recognition has to be present to give that move a good probability of success. Try it without a high level of success and you'll find the bench.

You're not going see OLBs "take over a game" in this scheme. Matthews never did. He just had a knack for a handful of flash plays that mattered in his prime. You never saw him whipping some guy inside and outside all day except on some occasion where he was drawing some chump such as a few OT backups we've seen in Green Bay over the years. Any decent player will look like an All Pro on that one day.

Even if you get the inside pressure, or Capers dials up a DB edge blitz with the OLB going inside, this takes time to develop. The whole shebang is designed to get to the QB or get him on the move with the edge covered inside 2.5 seconds. That relies on tight coverage or a look intended to deceive.

No matter how you cut it, Capers' defense hinges on inside pressure and DB and ILB coverage. In a nutshell, Capers is a blitz/man guy; zone coverages without a Pro Bowl backfield becomes an issue.

You could say every sack is supposed to be a coverage sack to one degree or another. That's why they keep piling high picks into the D-backfield. And with Capers preference for high blitz counts, they gotta be man coverage guys. When he has to play high/low coverage all day, every snap, like Gunter low and Dix high against Julio Jones is like playing with 10 guys. You gotta gotta have decent perimeter man corners (and the slot as well these days; see Sanu) if you're going to play a controlled blitz game. Capers was a genius when he had a Woodson-Williams-Collins Pro Bowl backfield. Well, that's a big head start to geniusville for any DC. Genius, to me, is being able to adapt in order to cover a weaknesses. And then we have the "culture of closing" out a game issue.

I have some confidence the defensive picture will improve. While King, and what looks like Hawkins at this moment, on the perimeter I see an upgrade over Gunter/Randall which is where we left off. Young player mistakes? Sure. But I have more confidence these guys can be left alone in man coverage than the previous set. There will better speed at nickel corner, whether that's Randall or a box safety substitute in Burnett or Jones. And just better speed across the board. If Clark keeps doing what he's doing, he's going draw some pass rush double teams opening some blitz lanes.

I don't think Capers is a bad DC. I just don't think he's a good one. He's been stubbornly conservative in adapting. He's years behind the league in working in a gapping 4-3 under into his 3-4 scheme; Clark was drafted with that transition in mind. You can't talk about athletic D-Linemen without giving them the opportunity to use it in gap play.

All in all, I see better coverage personnel, and that might just be good enough.
 
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azrsx05

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Mathews is a waste in cap and roster space. They Should be got rid of him years ago.

Every year in and out. TT fails to address positions that are in need. He's constantly reacting instead of being proactive. He tries to build the team off nobodies and expects them to turn i not something. Too many role players on the defense no real leaders
 

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I find it refreshing to see there are a few others on her willing to call a spade a spade. Matthews hasn't been cutting it for years, his big money contract and what some seem to think is a "guaranteed roster spot" are a few of the things I see to be the problems here and not addressing it to me, has become laughable. Cmon TT show us you do indeed have a set of kahunas, send clay packing and lets make the packers defense great again!
 

Pokerbrat2000

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I think some people are forgetting just how good Clay WAS and why he was given the big $66M contract in 2013. Some of us keep hoping to see THAT Matthews back playing but I think we all have been coming to the stark realization of that probably isn't going to happen and now are wondering how long the Packer organization is going to hold out hope of the old Clay resurfacing. With no dead cap on that contract next year, Clay is now officially in his "contract year" IMO.

The "old Clay"

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The "new Clay"

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