The Case for Paying Aaron Jones

Should the Packers Extend Jones (assumes he would accept contract comparable to the one mentioned)


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tynimiller

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I was curious to see Jones' stats and honestly was shocked at some things from last year...

Fair point many don't bring up:

He disappeared for less than 50 yards rushing in 8 games last year....less than 70 twelve times. TWELVE.

That is as the RB with the 15th most rushing attempts.

In one respect I personally do feel Aaron Jones has the tools to be an ELITE RB in the league for the next 2-4 years given lifespans of RBs....however, I struggle if you look over the impressive TDs to see a RB as good as maybe our hearts tell us.
 

Heyjoe4

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I was curious to see Jones' stats and honestly was shocked at some things from last year...

Fair point many don't bring up:

He disappeared for less than 50 yards rushing in 8 games last year....less than 70 twelve times. TWELVE.

That is as the RB with the 15th most rushing attempts.

In one respect I personally do feel Aaron Jones has the tools to be an ELITE RB in the league for the next 2-4 years given lifespans of RBs....however, I struggle if you look over the impressive TDs to see a RB as good as maybe our hearts tell us.
Very good points Ty, thanks for the research. It suggests to me that Jones isn't at the elite level yet, total TDs aside. Does he have the potential to be elite - yes. How he performs this year will determine his market value - the only caveat is that Covid makes this anything but a normal season.
 

tynimiller

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Very good points Ty, thanks for the research. It suggests to me that Jones isn't at the elite level yet, total TDs aside. Does he have the potential to be elite - yes. How he performs this year will determine his market value - the only caveat is that Covid makes this anything but a normal season.

For sure. Honestly, the stats surprised me. I think his TDs and the fact he led my Fantasy team to a cash prize I never analyzed much or noticed the rough outings.
 
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Sunshinepacker

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No, but he was behind a fellow rookie and a converted WR.

I’d say Williams and Jones are levels above the quality of RB we had in 2017.

Yes, which is why re-signing Jones to a new deal (which will most likely involve a significant amount of money) would imply that the coaches aren't certain that Dillon will be able to take over his role next season. I'm not saying Dillon CAN'T be a decent receiver, but if he had proven it, then he wouldn't be third string.
 

Sunshinepacker

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I was curious to see Jones' stats and honestly was shocked at some things from last year...

Fair point many don't bring up:

He disappeared for less than 50 yards rushing in 8 games last year....less than 70 twelve times. TWELVE.

That is as the RB with the 15th most rushing attempts.

In one respect I personally do feel Aaron Jones has the tools to be an ELITE RB in the league for the next 2-4 years given lifespans of RBs....however, I struggle if you look over the impressive TDs to see a RB as good as maybe our hearts tell us.

He averaged 4.59 yards per attempt on 236 attempts. He had some poor games running the ball but most of those poor games came when he only received 13 carries or fewer. I'm not claiming he's one of the best runners at RB, but he is one of the best three-down RBs in the NFL.
 

tynimiller

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He averaged 4.59 yards per attempt on 236 attempts. He had some poor games running the ball but most of those poor games came when he only received 13 carries or fewer. I'm not claiming he's one of the best runners at RB, but he is one of the best three-down RBs in the NFL.

I'd agree.
 

XPack

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Hey XPack, with all due respect, I disagree on Jones's utilization. He had 19 touchdowns last year, I think 15 were rushing and 4 were through the air. Not sure what more a guy can do. Or maybe I'm missing something in your comment.

It was not a dig on Jones. I was hoping our strategy would increase the throws to RBs...which if happened would boost Jones TD's by couple more.
 

Jerellh528

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He averaged 4.59 yards per attempt on 236 attempts. He had some poor games running the ball but most of those poor games came when he only received 13 carries or fewer. I'm not claiming he's one of the best runners at RB, but he is one of the best three-down RBs in the NFL.

To be fair, his 4 best yardage games of the season no doubt brought his ypc up to a respectable level because in those games his ypc was really high and unsustainable...Let’s say the average ypc in the nfl is about 4.5, he had 10 games below that mark, 5 games with below 3.0 ypc, and 8 games below 4.0 ypc. When you’re rushing poorly, you’re going to get fewer carries, that may explain a few of the games in which he had 13 or fewer carries.. His numbers are made to look much better by the 4 “big” games he had, but he’s far from a consistent 3 down rb imo, those 4 games accounted for approx half his total yards on the season.
 

gopkrs

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To be fair, his 4 best yardage games of the season no doubt brought his ypc up to a respectable level because in those games his ypc was really high and unsustainable...Let’s say the average ypc in the nfl is about 4.5, he had 10 games below that mark, 5 games with below 3.0 ypc, and 8 games below 4.0 ypc. When you’re rushing poorly, you’re going to get fewer carries, that may explain a few of the games in which he had 13 or fewer carries.. His numbers are made to look much better by the 4 “big” games he had, but he’s far from a consistent 3 down rb imo, those 4 games accounted for approx half his total yards on the season.
All that is true but you could probably say that for all backs. Of course it is true that if you are not getting first downs running the ball; then you are going to pass. But that could be a reflection on our O line or their D line. But again, all backs have big games and big carries that reflect on their stats. Tough to take the TDs away from him. He has a nose for the end zone.
 

PikeBadger

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All that is true but you could probably say that for all backs. Of course it is true that if you are not getting first downs running the ball; then you are going to pass. But that could be a reflection on our O line or their D line. But again, all backs have big games and big carries that reflect on their stats. Tough to take the TDs away from him. He has a nose for the end zone.
Packer naysayers often pretend the sentence bolded doesn’t apply to other team’s players. Just a way of misusing stats to advance an agenda which unfortunately is way to common.

The truth is, Jones has breakaway speed which allows him to make explosive gains defined as greater than 20 yards. Everyone knows he’s not a pounder and grinder type. Hopefully Dillon is that type of guy who can play that role effectively.
 
H

HardRightEdge

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Dalvin Cook: 5 year extension, $62.5 mil, $15.5 mil signing bonus, $28.2 mil guaranteed

Alvin Kamara: 5 year extension, $75 mil, $15 mil signing bonus, $34.3 mil guaranteed
 

Sunshinepacker

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To be fair, his 4 best yardage games of the season no doubt brought his ypc up to a respectable level because in those games his ypc was really high and unsustainable...Let’s say the average ypc in the nfl is about 4.5, he had 10 games below that mark, 5 games with below 3.0 ypc, and 8 games below 4.0 ypc. When you’re rushing poorly, you’re going to get fewer carries, that may explain a few of the games in which he had 13 or fewer carries.. His numbers are made to look much better by the 4 “big” games he had, but he’s far from a consistent 3 down rb imo, those 4 games accounted for approx half his total yards on the season.

EVERY running back's average is brought up by big games. He's one of the 5-7 best three-down backs in the NFL. No, he's not the runner that Henry or Barkley are, but also excellent in pass protection and receiving.

You also need to account for number of rushing attempts, which you appear to be ignoring. Zeke had 3 games last year with 13 or fewer rushing attempts. Jones had ELEVEN games with 13 or fewer rushing attempts last year.
 

Mondio

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even as mediocre as our passing attack was last year, it’s still what sets up our run game and NOT the run game setting up the pass. Until that changes there is no need to dedicate big bucks to a RB.
 

Sunshinepacker

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even as mediocre as our passing attack was last year, it’s still what sets up our run game and NOT the run game setting up the pass. Until that changes there is no need to dedicate big bucks to a RB.

What about when the RB is the second best WR? Does that mean Jones is setting up Jones?...too meta for me.
 

bigbubbatd

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Before this off season 4 rbs average 12 million or more per year. 3 of those 4 had been disappointing - Bell, Johnson, Gurley - and only Elliott has performed at the desired level. This off season 5 more have received 12 million or more - McCaffery, Henry, Mixon, Cook, and Kamara. Are these rbs going to different or are these teams (and GB if they sign Jones) setting themselves up for disappointment?
 
D

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Packer naysayers often pretend the sentence bolded doesn’t apply to other team’s players. Just a way of misusing stats to advance an agenda which unfortunately is way to common.

On the other side there are too many Packers fans ignoring numbers that support that other teams have more success in different areas as well. It's best to compare numbers to the rest of the league instead of solely relying on a gut feeling.

The truth is, Jones has breakaway speed which allows him to make explosive gains defined as greater than 20 yards.

Jones had five rushing attempts of at least 20 yards last season. 18 other running backs had more than that in 2019.

You also need to account for number of rushing attempts, which you appear to be ignoring. Zeke had 3 games last year with 13 or fewer rushing attempts. Jones had ELEVEN games with 13 or fewer rushing attempts last year.

When considering yards per attempt the number of carries isn't that important.

Before this off season 4 rbs average 12 million or more per year. 3 of those 4 had been disappointing - Bell, Johnson, Gurley - and only Elliott has performed at the desired level. This off season 5 more have received 12 million or more - McCaffery, Henry, Mixon, Cook, and Kamara. Are these rbs going to different or are these teams (and GB if they sign Jones) setting themselves up for disappointment?

The Packers should definitely not offer Jones $12 million a season.
 

PikeBadger

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On the other side there are too many Packers fans ignoring numbers that support that other teams have more success in different areas as well. It's best to compare numbers to the rest of the league instead of solely relying on a gut feeling.



Jones had five rushing attempts of at least 20 yards last season. 18 other running backs had more than that in 2019.
How many receptions for more than 20 yards? How many total touches? What was his overall percentage of explosive plays to touches and how did that compare to others? TD’s to touches?

Jones clearly had a really good year by the eye test. Top 5 in the league? Maybe not.

Are other teams having more success in areas? Certainly. We had a pretty well rounded team last year and the 13-3 record reflected that. The narrative that it was a fluke is based on cherry picking selected stats.
 

Mondio

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What about when the RB is the second best WR? Does that mean Jones is setting up Jones?...too meta for me.
Sure...

anyway, teams game plan to control Adams. I doubt they focus on Jones in the passing game. He had some great plays for sure but he didn’t make the passing game go either. Taking advantage of a defensive mismatch a 2-3 times a game isn’t the same as lining up as a receiver and getting open for big plus 4-9 times a game.

I’m not arguing the guys sucks or something but defenses are I’m sure aware of Jones. I seriously doubt defenses focus on Jones or key him like they would someone like Zeke Elliot.

there’s a difference and Jones is pretty good for what he does but until defenses start being afraid of our run game it’s just nice stats set up by passing. It’s not that difficult to understand.
 
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HardRightEdge

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How many receptions for more than 20 yards? How many total touches? What was his overall percentage of explosive plays to touches and how did that compare to others? TD’s to touches?

Jones clearly had a really good year by the eye test. Top 5 in the league? Maybe not.

Are other teams having more success in areas? Certainly. We had a pretty well rounded team last year and the 13-3 record reflected that. The narrative that it was a fluke is based on cherry picking selected stats.
One thing is for sure--yards per carry is a poor way to measure running backs. A 300 carry back will average 19 carries per game. In comparing the difference between a 4.6 yds per carry RB (Jones in 2019) vs. a 4.3 RB (Williams in 2019, frequently an afterthought in these parts) is about 6 yards over the course of an average game. In a 19 carry game a 4.6 RB vs. a 4.0 RB is 11 yards.

Advanced analytics are required. While I cannot vouch for the Football Outsiders' criteria, the accuracy of their counting, or the black box elements of the ratings, their advanced analytics touch on what is important.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/rb/2019

Consider their "Success Rate" rankings, a measure of consistency, where:
  • In general, a play counts as a "hit" if it gains 40% of yards on first down, 60% of yards on second down, and 100% of yards on third down.
  • If the team is behind by more than a touchdown in the fourth quarter, the benchmarks switch to 50%/65%/100%.
  • If the team is ahead by any amount in the fourth quarter, the benchmarks switch to 30%/50%/100%.
Among the 45 RBs with 100 or more carries in 2019, Jones tied for 4th. in success rate at 56%. Williams tied for 7th. at 53%.

This is contrasted with DVOA (Defense Adjusted Value Over Average) which incorporates big play outcomes to get to a "value per play":

"A player with higher DVOA and a low success rate mixes long runs with downs getting stuffed at the line of scrimmage. A player with lower DVOA and a high success rate generally gets the yards needed, but doesn't often get more." If or how TDs factor into DVOA I'm not willing to dig any deeper if that's even explained since we're talking about black boxes here.

Jones ranked 7th. in DVOA, Williams 21st. with a negative number which makes sense. This makes sense given Jones' big play ability vs. Williams while, as the Captain pointed out, Jones' big play runs were not especially high--we've been conditioned over the last decade or more by RBs without big play ability resulting in seeing more than what's there.

On the receiving side, among the 50 RBs with 25 or more catches, Williams ranked 8th. in DVOA while Jones ranked 17th. They evidently have not come up with a way to measure a separate "success rate". There is some basis for the Jones/Williams disparity on a "success rate" basis that few might recognize:

Jones: 72% catch rate, 26% first downs per target, 4% TDs per target
Williams: 87% catch rate, 36% first downs per target, 11% TDs per target

These numbers appear to belie the yards per catch difference, Jones at 9.7 YPC vs. Williams 6.5 YPC. I think we collectively might be overrating Jones' overall contribution based on a few chunck plays whereas down-in-down-out Williams was in fact more productive last season. We remember Jones burning LBs for a couple of big plays and forget Williams diving catch in the corner of the end zone.

Football Outsiders evidently has not made an attempt to roll rushing and receiving into a set of rankings. Their inability to identify a separate "success rate" for RB receiving, though it is evidident it is somehow imbedded in DVOA is a curious question to be answered given how many of those throws are run substitions.
 
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Sunshinepacker

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Sure...

anyway, teams game plan to control Adams. I doubt they focus on Jones in the passing game. He had some great plays for sure but he didn’t make the passing game go either. Taking advantage of a defensive mismatch a 2-3 times a game isn’t the same as lining up as a receiver and getting open for big plus 4-9 times a game.

I’m not arguing the guys sucks or something but defenses are I’m sure aware of Jones. I seriously doubt defenses focus on Jones or key him like they would someone like Zeke Elliot.

there’s a difference and Jones is pretty good for what he does but until defenses start being afraid of our run game it’s just nice stats set up by passing. It’s not that difficult to understand.

I like how you just ignored the whole argument and pretended it didn't exist. Jones is the second best receiving threat on this team. How do you just gloss over that?
 

jon

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Before this off season 4 rbs average 12 million or more per year. 3 of those 4 had been disappointing - Bell, Johnson, Gurley - and only Elliott has performed at the desired level.

"Past performance is no guarantee of future returns."

Still, we see GMs across the league avoid using early picks on runners and avoid big contracts even on proven performers. They know something. I like Jones as much as anyone does and hope he gets paid, but there has got to be a limit and I'm sure the GM knows it. I hope Jones does too.

And I hope there isn't some desperate GM out there who ruins it with a too big offer.
 
D

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How many receptions for more than 20 yards? How many total touches? What was his overall percentage of explosive plays to touches and how did that compare to others? TD’s to touches?

We had a pretty well rounded team last year and the 13-3 record reflected that. The narrative that it was a fluke is based on cherry picking selected stats.

I'm not arguing that Jones didn't have a good season in 2019 but that he didn't have as many plays over 20 yards as you want to make us believe. His six receptions ranked tied for seventh among running backs in that category.

I don't care enough to evaluate those numbers per touch.

BTW I don't believe the Packers record last season was a fluke but there are some numbers supporting the claim they wouldn't win another 13 games performing at the same level moving forward.

Yes, that's why I used YPA. My reply was to ppl focusing on total yardage in some games. Context matters.

You replied to a poster who was mainly taking about yards per attempt, that's why I thought you were focusing on total yardage instead.
 
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And I hope there isn't some desperate GM out there who ruins it with a too big offer.

I guarantee there's at least one team out there willing to overpay for Jones if he hits free agency next year.
 

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