The Case for Paying Aaron Jones

[Dantés]

There's no way any coach in the league can have success without a talented roster. McCarthy deserves credit for runnibgva very successful offense for most of his tenure in Green Bay. For some reason too many fans don't agree with that.

The Packers didn't improve on offense last season, scoring the exact same amount of points as during the last season with MM as head coach.

While they look significantly improved this season they have yet to face a decent opponent.

Yes, coaches need talent. And yes, McCarthy deserves credit for what he accomplished when he accomplished it.

And yet, some coaches are better than others at creating success without ideal pieces to work with. LaFleur's system has proven to be such an offense in this league. Whether it will continue to work that way with him here in Green Bay remains to be seen, though the early returns this year is encouraging.

McCarthy's offense, on the other hand, depends on having multiple receivers who are good enough to win one on one matchups against man coverage consistently and an OL that can consistently protect without help. He's also had great QB play anywhere he's been. If you take those elements away from him or force him to make due with less, the results aren't going to be very good.

McCarthy may be a great leader and motivator. I don't know. But what he brings from a schematic perspective isn't adding anything above replacement level.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Yes, coaches need talent. And yes, McCarthy deserves credit for what he accomplished when he accomplished it.

And yet, some coaches are better than others at creating success without ideal pieces to work with. LaFleur's system has proven to be such an offense in this league. Whether it will continue to work that way with him here in Green Bay remains to be seen, though the early returns this year is encouraging.

McCarthy's offense, on the other hand, depends on having multiple receivers who are good enough to win one on one matchups against man coverage consistently and an OL that can consistently protect without help. He's also had great QB play anywhere he's been. If you take those elements away from him or force him to make due with less, the results aren't going to be very good.

McCarthy may be a great leader and motivator. I don't know. But what he brings from a schematic perspective isn't adding anything above replacement level.

MLF's scheme isn't any better but just different and needs talented players to be successful as well though.

As an example, the Titans finished 27th in points scored during his only season as their offensive coordinator. The Packers never even came close to being as bad during McCarthy's tenure.

 

[Dantés]

MLF's scheme isn't any better but just different and needs talented players to be successful as well though.

As an example, the Titans finished 27th in points scored during his only season as their offensive coordinator. The Packers never even came close to being as bad during McCarthy's tenure.

Petals' scheme is demonstrably better. The offense he's brought to Green Bay has one of the longest track records of success in the NFL and is currently being used to great effect for multiple NFL teams. It's also very easy to look back and see that this offense typically takes a season to learn before it hits a stride, which you ignore in citing his offense in Tennessee (where, btw, he was working with a QB who promptly lost his job and is now a backup elsewhere).

McCarthy's offense has never been exported successfully, and frankly very few teams have even been interested in trying. Ben McAdoo and Joe Philbin were the only guys to be given a shot, and both flopped. Obviously all teams/units require talent to succeed, but McCarthy's system, by its very nature and approach, requires nearly ideal talent, whereas other systems, such as Petals', can accomplish as much in less ideal circumstances.

When your offense is predicated on "have better players than the defense so that they win one-on-one," you're not adding a lot of value.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Petals' scheme is demonstrably better. The offense he's brought to Green Bay has one of the longest track records of success in the NFL and is currently being used to great effect for multiple NFL teams. It's also very easy to look back and see that this offense typically takes a season to learn before it hits a stride, which you ignore in citing his offense in Tennessee (where, btw, he was working with a QB who promptly lost his job and is now a backup elsewhere).

McCarthy's offense has never been exported successfully, and frankly very few teams have even been interested in trying. Ben McAdoo and Joe Philbin were the only guys to be given a shot, and both flopped. Obviously all teams/units require talent to succeed, but McCarthy's system, by its very nature and approach, requires nearly ideal talent, whereas other systems, such as Petals', can accomplish as much in less ideal circumstances.

When your offense is predicated on "have better players than the defense so that they win one-on-one," you're not adding a lot of value.

I don't care much about the success of other teams running a similar scheme although there's reason to debate if that's actually true taking a closer look at Kyle Shanahan's coaching tree.

The Packers didn't have more success in MLF's first season than McCarthy's last one. They're off to a great start this year but there's reason to believe that facing two terrible defenses has helped. We'll see how they perform against better competition.

McCarthy has had success in Green Bay for most of his 13 seasons as head coach. It's ignorant to believe that a talented roster was the only reason for it.

 

[Dantés]

I don't care much about the success of other teams running a similar scheme although there's reason to debate if that's actually true taking a closer look at Kyle Shanahan's coaching tree.

The Packers didn't have more success in MLF's first season than McCarthy's last one. They're off to a great start this year but there's reason to believe that facing two terrible defenses has helped. We'll see how they perform against better competition.

McCarthy has had success in Green Bay for most of his 13 seasons as head coach. It's ignorant to believe that a talented roster was the only reason for it.

If you want to debate the superiority of the system, which is what you did, then it obviously makes sense to compare the success of that system throughout the league.

And there is zero debate to be had here. The basic core of the offense that is in Green Bay is the same that had success under Mike Shanahan, Gary Kubiak, Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVay, etc. The system that McCarthy coaches can't come close to competing with that legacy.

That doesn't guarantee that LaFleur will have great success, but the offensive pedigree that he comes out of is superior beyond any doubt. And like I said, and you ignored, it's been typical for this offense elsewhere to take a year to get going, especially when it's replacing something fundamentally different. See the 2015 vs. 2016 Falcons for a case study.

McCarthy may be a great teacher and a great leader. He may bring a lot of intangibles to the job that really matter. Not being a player or coach under him, I wouldn't really know. But he doesn't bring a lot from a schematic perspective, and the talented offensive roster that Ted Thompson provided him was absolutely the biggest reason he succeeded.

So before we throw the "ignorant" word around, maybe get yourself some background on these offenses so you know what you're talking about.

 

[Mavster]

The West coast offense was a pretty good system historically.

 

[swhitset]

The West coast offense was a pretty good system historically.

I’m not sure what you are getting at.... but McCarthy did not run a true west coast offense.

 

[Dantés]

The West coast offense was a pretty good system historically.

The WCO, as associated with Bill Walsh, is a super broad, general designation by now.

Technically, both McCarthy's system and LaFleur's are descendants of the WCO. That doesn't mean they're similar any more. There's been a lot of time for systems to go their own way and differentiate.

 

[longtimefan]

I dunno if they’ll re-sign Jones, but I doubt it. Jones doesn’t seem like the type of back they want to feature in this offense. I believe we’re going for a power run offense where a big back can continually wear down defenses and churn for yardage. Jones while having some great games last season disappeared too often. He’d have one game go for like 30 yards and then blow up for 150 a few games down the road. I think they would rather seen a consistent guy go for 75 yards a game than 20 one game and 120 the next. I’ve always thought Jones was more of an elite complimentary guy rather than a feature guy, he’s just not consistent enough of a runner. Wouldn’t be surprised if they spent a second rounder for Dillion to come in and be our feature back after jones is out of town.

Still feel he isn’t featured?

 

[Jerellh528]

Still feel he isn’t featured?

Never said he wasn’t featured, said he’s not a feature back or that they would prefer a different type of back which of course I still feel. Otherwise they wouldn’t have taken Dillion. Or should I wait until jones has a couple duds and then come back here and quote my post and say “see”. Lol

 

[Dantés]

Never said he wasn’t featured, said he’s not a feature back or that they would prefer a different type of back which of course I still feel. Otherwise they wouldn’t have taken Dillion. Or should I wait until jones has a couple duds and then come back here and quote my post and say “see”. Lol

I highly doubt they'd prefer a different type of back from the guy who is an excellent runner within the scheme, a top 3 receiver at the position in the league, and a good pass protector.

I'm sure they'd like to have multiple types of backs within the offense. I'm in an ideal world they'd love to pair him for 3-4 years with Dillon. Whether that's financially wise/tenable is a different question.

 

[longtimefan]

Never said he wasn’t featured, said he’s not a feature back or that they would prefer a different type of back which of course I still feel. Otherwise they wouldn’t have taken Dillion. Or should I wait until jones has a couple duds and then come back here and quote my post and say “see”. Lol

How can you say they don’t want to feature him and then he has days like he has had??

Did they take Dillion to replace Williams? Or Jones?

i believe it was to replace Williams and in case they lose Jones but I don’t think they let Jones walk

 

[Jerellh528]

How can you say they don’t want to feature him and then he has days like he has had??

Did they take Dillion to replace Williams? Or Jones?

i believe it was to replace Williams and in case they lose Jones but I don’t think they let Jones walk

because I’ve seen him have similar days before and then disappear for games at a time.

 

[longtimefan]

because I’ve seen him have similar days before and then disappear for games at a time.

Not denying low production..but he averages 19 or 20 touches per game..

that isn’t being featured?

 

[Jerellh528]

I highly doubt they'd prefer a different type of back from the guy who is an excellent runner within the scheme, a top 3 receiver at the position in the league, and a good pass protector.

I'm sure they'd like to have multiple types of backs within the offense. I'm in an ideal world they'd love to pair him for 3-4 years with Dillon. Whether that's financially wise/tenable is a different question.

I disagree that he’s an excellent runner within the scheme, top 3 pass catcher at the position is a stretch but probably top 3 pass catcher who’s a starter. I would like to see him be a more consistent runner

 

[Dantés]

I disagree that he’s an excellent runner within the scheme, top 3 pass catcher at the position is a stretch but probably top 3 pass catcher who’s a starter. I would like to see him be a more consistent runner

Then we don't see him the same way as a runner at all.

You find me the other backs in the league who run routes and catch passes down the field like Jones does.

 

[Mavster]

I’m not sure what you are getting at.... but McCarthy did not run a true west coast offense.

Ah yes, of course. It wasn't a "true" west coast offense.

I love hot takes after 2 good offensive performances against bad teams.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Aaron Jones is better than Kamara; difference is that the Saints give Kamara the ball more. Jones is the better receiver and just as good a runner. He deserves to get paid. Hopefully the Packers reward their second best offensive player instead of letting him walk.

 

[Dantés]

Aaron Jones is better than Kamara; difference is that the Saints give Kamara the ball more. Jones is the better receiver and just as good a runner. He deserves to get paid. Hopefully the Packers reward their second best offensive player instead of letting him walk.

Yeah, I would say that Jones and Kamara are very comparable. I think Kamara is a little bit better, but it's not a stretch to view it the other way.

If Jones was a top 50 pick who went to a power 5 school, everyone would share this opinion. He's was a 5th rounder out of UTEP, so he's not going to get the love.

I argued he was better than Dalvin Cook like two years ago and Vikings fans couldn't believe what they were reading. But it was true then and it's true now.

 

[gopkrs]

I don't know if we will re-sign Jones but it is pretty ridiculous to think that the Pack may not want him because they really want a power back for their scheme. He was very productive last year and he looks even better this year. They are finding ways to use him regardless of over-all scheme. I think it is great that they are not overusing him. He is still productive. We have a 3 headed monster in the backfield...soon to be 4 headed.

 

[King of Jeans]

I hate the idea of giving huge deals to RBs.

He is a great RB. But we can get someone who is almost as good for half the price probably.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I hate the idea of giving huge deals to RBs.

He is a great RB. But we can get someone who is almost as good for half the price probably.

We can give a good RB half the price, but not somebody almost as good. Jones is a top-5 RB, they aren't easy to find. If the Packers valued receivers a little more highly they might be able to get away with it.

 

[swhitset]

Ah yes, of course. It wasn't a "true" west coast offense.

I love hot takes after 2 good offensive performances against bad teams.

Again... I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[longtimefan]

If you want to debate the superiority of the system, which is what you did, then it obviously makes sense to compare the success of that system throughout the league.

And there is zero debate to be had here. The basic core of the offense that is in Green Bay is the same that had success under Mike Shanahan, Gary Kubiak, Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVay, etc. The system that McCarthy coaches can't come close to competing with that legacy.

That doesn't guarantee that LaFleur will have great success, but the offensive pedigree that he comes out of is superior beyond any doubt. And like I said, and you ignored, it's been typical for this offense elsewhere to take a year to get going, especially when it's replacing something fundamentally different. See the 2015 vs. 2016 Falcons for a case study.

McCarthy may be a great teacher and a great leader. He may bring a lot of intangibles to the job that really matter. Not being a player or coach under him, I wouldn't really know. But he doesn't bring a lot from a schematic perspective, and the talented offensive roster that Ted Thompson provided him was absolutely the biggest reason he succeeded.

So before we throw the "ignorant" word around, maybe get yourself some background on these offenses so you know what you're talking about.

I think Mike tweaked his offense while he was unemployed. So it might be better??

I still agree with your thoughts

 

[Dantés]

I think Mike tweaked his offense while he was unemployed. So it might be better??

I still agree with your thoughts

Could be! It’s going to be hard to say whether he’s learned how to make hay with less talent given how much he has to work with in Dallas— good QB, good OL, top 5 back, and arguably the best WR trio in the league. An ideal situation.