Packers vs Ravens Final Preseason Game Thread

[Pokerbrat2000]

Tough decisions. The younger vs. The experienced. If we lose a playoff game I do not want it to be because of a makeable place kick. Remember the Vikings losing to the Seahawks. Recall the Bears losing to Philly. And think of Crosby delivering in Dallas.

If I had a crystal ball, I think it would tell me that Carlson will be the better kicker of the two (him and Joseph) in 3 years, but I don't think the Packers can wait for that to come.

 

[OldSchool101]

I notice that Bisaccia and MLF stay pretty close to each other on the sidelines and are talking quite a bit during the game. I never noticed that with other special teams coaches. Possibly Bisaccia is helping MLF with more than just special teams?

I noticed that also. I think when Bisaccia resolved to stay, they expanded Rich’s role some as they gave him “Assistant Head Coach/ST Coordinator”

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I noticed that also. I think when Bisaccia resolved to stay, they expanded Rich’s role some as they gave him “Assistant Head Coach/ST Coordinator”

I think he's got a lot to offer. He's only 64, been coaching football since 1983 and at the NFL level since 2002. Rich is a valuable commodity IMO, hope the Packers can keep him around until he decides to retire.

 

[Thirteen Below]

Yeah I mean some people will say the missed 33 yarder is "only one play" but Carlson has amassed a bunch of "only one play" misses over his short career. Yesterday's miss was big just for his complacency.

I think you and I were talking about this same thing just the other day, after the Cleveland game. In that game, Joseph was 1 for 1 (35 yd) plus an XTP, and Carlson was 2/2 (33 yd, 46yd) with an XTP. Which one had the better day?

Depends on how you evaluate it. Most might say neither had the "better" day, because neither missed a kick and it's impossible to do better than not miss. Some might say Carlson had the better game, because he had twice as many field goals as Joseph - and one was 46 yards.

But another way of looking at it is that Joseph looked a hell of a lot better than Carlson. Both of Joseph's kicks in Cleveland were drilled exactly dead center, while Carlson's two field goals just barely squeezed in - one within the width of the ball inside the right upright, and the other just a couple of feet inside the left upright.

The uprights are exactly 18'6" apart. If they were 16 feet apart, Carlson would have gone 0/2 in Cleveland and 0/2 again against the Baltimores, with 1 missed XTP.

If they were just 5 feet apart (or at the absolute most 7 feet apart), Joseph would have still been perfect from the field - 2/2 in Cleveland, 1/1 Saturday, and perfect on extra points. If the uprights were only as wide as my armspan.

I have no idea what the differences are in their appoach and/or technique, but whatever it is that Joseph does hits his target absolutely dead center on a comparatively very frequent and regular basis, and whatever it is that Carlson does often just sprays the ball in the general direction of the same target, and comes as close as possible to hitting it.

And that matters. If I'm Carlson's agent in April, I'm going to insist that the only thing that counts is that even the close calls still made it through the uprights and scored points. But if I'm Gutekunst/LaFleur/Bisaccia in August, trying to build a team that will win potentially multiple Super Bowls, I'm not comfortable betting the future of the franchise on a guy who basically just aims the ball in the general direction and crosses his fingers.

 

[Thirteen Below]

I think he's got a lot to offer. He's only 64, been coaching football since 1983 and at the NFL level since 2002. Rich is a valuable commodity IMO, hope the Packers can keep him around until he decides to retire.

And let's not forget, as an interim head coach with the Raiders 3 years ago when Gruden resigned in October, he coached Las Vegas to the playoffs. This guy is not to be taken lightly.

I think he has a great deal of insight, wisdom, and experience to offer, and is 20 years older than MLF. He was a special teams coach at Wayne State when Matt Lafleur was learning how to use fingerpaint in pre-school. I also find it really encouraging that LaFleur appears to be self-confident enough that he isn't shy about picking his brain and seeking his counsel during the course of the game.

LaFleur seems to have managed to sneak more than a couple of really valuable aassistants in under the radar, and if you look at Green Bay's whole coaching staff, there are some substantial resumes there that we never really hear mentioned after the initial "welcome to Green Bay" press conference. They just get busy quietly doing their jobs while the small-town media focuses on keeping the fans pumped up. I think Bisaccia is a very important piece of the puzzle, and one that few people really pay attention to. In some of the larger markets, some of them would have their own damned weekly TV shows.

I, too, hope he is happy just staying at this level for the rest of his career, and hope Green Bay is doing everything they can to keep him happy here. So that as long he's happy staying at this level, he'll be happy staying at this team.

Very very happy.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Tough decisions. The younger vs. The experienced. If we lose a playoff game I do not want it to be because of a makeable place kick. Remember the Vikings losing to the Seahawks. Recall the Bears losing to Philly. And think of Crosby delivering in Dallas.

If it's the Dallas playoff game from, I think 2017, Crosby had to make a 51 yarder, twice. The first one was nullified by a TO. That was the thing with Crosby, when a kick was really needed, he delivered. Sure seemed that way.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I think you and I were talking about this same thing just the other day, after the Cleveland game. In that game, Joseph was 1 for 1 (35 yd) plus an XTP, and Carlson was 2/2 (33 yd, 46yd) with an XTP. Which one had the better day?

Depends on how you evaluate it. Most might say neither had the "better" day, because neither missed a kick and it's impossible to do better than not miss. Some might say Carlson had the better game, because he had twice as many field goals as Joseph - and one was 46 yards.

But another way of looking at it is that Joseph looked a hell of a lot better than Carlson. Both of Joseph's kicks in Cleveland were drilled exactly dead center, while Carlson's two field goals just barely squeezed in - one within the width of the ball inside the right upright, and the other just a couple of feet inside the left upright.

The uprights are exactly 18'6" apart. If they were 16 feet apart, Carlson would have gone 0/2 in Cleveland and 0/2 again against the Baltimores, with 1 missed XTP.

If they were just 5 feet apart (or at the absolute most 7 feet apart), Joseph would have still been perfect from the field - 2/2 in Cleveland, 1/1 Saturday, and perfect on extra points. If the uprights were only as wide as my armspan.

I have no idea what the differences are in their appoach and/or technique, but whatever it is that Joseph does hits his target absolutely dead center on a comparatively very frequent and regular basis, and whatever it is that Carlson does often just sprays the ball in the general direction of the same target, and comes as close as possible to hitting it.

And that matters. If I'm Carlson's agent in April, I'm going to insist that the only thing that counts is that even the close calls still made it through the uprights and scored points. But if I'm Gutekunst/LaFleur/Bisaccia in August, trying to build a team that will win potentially multiple Super Bowls, I'm not comfortable betting the future of the franchise on a guy who basically just aims the ball in the general direction and crosses his fingers.

It's kinda like golf. The person who consistently hits the ball straight usually scores low. Distance is nice but accuracy is critical. A 200 yard drive onto the middle of the fairway is almost always better than a 275 yard drive into some nasty rough.

So yeah, Joseph just "looks" like a better kicker. Not a huge leg and probably won't make a whole lot more kicks than Carlson. But like Crosby, Joseph is more likely to hit the "gotta make" kicks.

 

[Thirteen Below]

So yeah, Joseph just "looks" like a better kicker. Not a huge leg and probably won't make a whole lot more kicks than Carlson. But like Crosby, Joseph is more likely to hit the "gotta make" kicks.

And in a game where the entire season can sometimes depend on just one, single kick... which guy do you want out there?

Another way to look at it is this... when those guys form up before the snap, and line up their run toward the ball... Carlson's not telling himself, "Ok, I'm gonna aim just inside the right upright". His aim point is dead center. If he misses by 8 or 9 feet, it still counts, but that sure wasn't where he was trying to place the ball.

Joseph, on the other hand? He consistently places the ball within 2 or 3 feet of what he was aiming at, from 30, 35, 40 yards away.

They both still count for the same number of points, but which one do you feel more comfortable with when he's running out onto the field with 3 seconds left on the clock?

 

[sschind]

Joseph was a perfect 100% yesterday and Carlson shanked a 32 yarder. You must be talking about Camp as a whole?

Joseph was 100% also inside of 40 last year. Except he only missed 2 XPA to Carlsons 5. So accuracy inside of 40 last year? That award still goes to Greg imo.

Listen. I’m not a Carlson hater. I realize his brother went through similar growing pains and Rich stuck with him and it worked. I just think he needs another season, but we don’t really have time to wait on training wheels to come off is my contention. During a rebuild probably no big deal but I think we’re NFC champion level right now. I’d seriously keep them both and stash one I have no idea who’s the better Kicker right now. My heart tells me Anders, but my gut tells me Greg will be in that 84% FG area 93% XPM and that’s hard to walk away from right now.

Yes, I'm talking about camp as a whole. I see these guys a pretty much equal right now with a much bigger upside in Carlson. As far as numbers you are expecting Joseph to be better than his career average on both counts. Thats not tough as it could be as simple as two or three more successful attempts but its not like Joseph was a pro bowl kicker in the past. However, I've said it before and I'm going to have to take my own advice, with things like kicking stats you have to be careful looking at percentages. Its a small sample size and a couple of makes or misses can make a pretty big difference in % points.

The one thing Joseph probably has going for him IMO, and it is big, is that the ones he does make he puts down the middle. Others have pointed it out and again, like I said in another post, thats one of those things that I have not personally noticed but I am certain the coaches have. That may be enough to tip the scales in his favor and truthfully if it comes down to that I would not disagree. If two kickers are making a similar number of kicks it makes sense to go with the one who looks better making them.

No matter who they choose I'll trust their decision and since it has come down to this it wouldn't surprise me at all if they tried to slip the other guy onto the PS. Instead of looking at it like neither one could pull away during TC and the preseason look at it like neither one folded through TC and preseason. Honestly though I could easily see either one of these guys being poached off the PS. Especially after a week or two and some team has made a big mistake in their choice. We focus on our guys as Packer fans but my guess is there are at least 16 other fan bases feeling something similar. Maybe not the choice we are facing but the uncertainty of a decision that has already been made.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Kevin Harlan and John Kuhn on Saturday talked about Anders changing his approach point. They never really said "when" he made that change. I may have to go back and look at Family Night and the Browns game. I did notice on Saturday, that he is much more square to the ball before the snap. He used to stand further to his left and had the typical soccer-tyle kick approach.

Like either Kuhn or Harlan said, much like changing your golf swing, it takes awhile to get used to it. Not sure the Packers can wait any longer for Anders to get his "shkick" together. I think he may be gone by tomorrow.

 

[milani]

If it's the Dallas playoff game from, I think 2017, Crosby had to make a 51 yarder, twice. The first one was nullified by a TO. That was the thing with Crosby, when a kick was really needed, he delivered. Sure seemed that way.

And he also delivered one from close to 50 a minute before the winner. Our D could not keep the Cowboys from marching down the field. I think it was Bailey who tied it.