Keep Pettine if the D doesn't improve?

[Deleted member 6794]

I agree that Martinez would have been a better choice but only because of the durability issues. I’d choose Kirksey any day of the week over Blake when both healthy. The Giants over paid and we took a gamble.

I agree that there was no reason to offer Martinez the kind of money the Giants decided to pay him. Unfortunately I don't consider Kirksey a significant upgrade over him by any means.

I thought Martinez was a liability. He only "looked" good. And so I am happy going in another direction. Any direction.

As I've mentioned above it was the right decision to move on from Martinez considering the contract he received from the Giants.

I just watched that play. It was a screen play and Kirksey was the only Browns player to read and react. He immediately diagnosed the play and came down field. Yes, he got leveled but that TD was inevitable. He was surrounded by 6 white jerseys.

Not.
Fortunately I have the time and resources to rewatch it, did you?
I just reviewed that play 4 times both freezing motion and regular speed. Kirksey set and edge with a OL attempting your engage and block him, as he surged to make the play in the flat,, he did a nice job of beating the OL and literally got tackled by the OL (much like you see with Edge Defenders rounding the QB pocket) as he rounded the corner.

Kirksey immediately raised his hand on the ground with the OL laying on top of him, in what looked to me as an appeal to a foul. In my opinion he was clearly held. No flag was called, but it was very arguable it should’ve been. We see this regularly where OL get more latitude holding on blocks than other positions would, which is fine.. had a WR hooked him and tackled him like that, it was an obvious foul.
The key here for me was he never relinquished the Edge, which was his responsibility and forced Henry to go due North and kept him in the middle of the field. At best you could argue he was 50% at fault if you called OL hooking him a legal block. Henry scampered 80 yards, initially through the middle of the field, where was the secondary?

Furthermore, in comparison, 0% chance was Blake Martinez going to out athletic a pretty good initial block. Blake would’ve been fully engaged and pushed back 8 yards out of that play. Personally, I’d rather see my Defender tackled as he aggressively beats the block -2 LOS verses back peddling and getting squared up like Blake did consistently 4.2 yards downfield.

While the play resulting in a 75 yard touchdown reception definitely wasn't all on Kirksey he was completely taken out of the play by Saffold. If the same thing happened to Martinez last season he would be rightfully criticized for it yet for some unknown reasons different standards are applied with the newcomer.

 

[OldSchool101]

While the play resulting in a 75 yard touchdown reception definitely wasn't all on Kirksey he was completely taken out of the play by Saffold.

I just find it interesting that you’ve lately seemed to be in a full fledge attempt to discount nearly every player at every turn. I understand not liking the draft, but get over it.
The fact is that IF Kirksey had zero injury concerns? he’d be commanding a double digit annual salary and regardless of this particular play, his full body of work when healthy is really quite good. So these individual attempts to detract from his overall talent past injury concerns is just petty.

PS.
The Devante Parker comment was a generic comment more about comparing your “attitude” of discounting players (Offense or Defense) before they’ve had ample time to flourish or spiral and that example was even a day 1 selection. However, I can see now how it could’ve been misinterpreted and I wasn’t referring to you in particular contesting him. But he’s a great example of a Day 1 drafted player who looked like a pretty dismal option before last season and could’ve been easily “written off” if “Proof” was his defense.

 

[HardRightEdge]

My point being that it's not smart to completely change a team's scheme based on not matching up well with a single opponent.

That depends on who you are, what you are capable of seeing, and getting buy in from the players to "do your job" on a given day which may not have been the job on the previous day.

Hoodie built his reputation as a defensive genius doing what you described, going all base against one opponent in the playoffs, all dime the next, finding matchups and throwing curveballs at the opponent's game plan. The Tuna didn't know what he was doing, questioned it, but is happy today that he let it roll. And that inventiveness didn't stop after he graduated from DC to HC.

It's an uncommon coach, a different kind of genius, who can fashion a defense in "just line up and play mode", keeping it simple, challenging the opponent to beat them with fewer rotations and adjustments than typical. Jim Schwatz is the closest I can thing of in recent years, with the 2014 Bills (a defense Packer fans saw first hand) and the 2017 Eagles. However, you kinda need a surfeit of talent to make that work.

If you are not one kind of genius or another without the talent that fits the vision, you'd best plow some middle ground.

Anyway, if Pettine can repeat that red zone performance and not let some undrafted FA run amok in the playoffs, the defense will do alright.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I just find it interesting that you’ve lately seemed to be in a full fledge attempt to discount nearly every player at every turn. I understand not liking the draft, but get over it.
The fact is that IF Kirksey had zero injury concerns? he’d be commanding a double digit annual salary and regardless of this particular play, his full body of work when healthy is really quite good. So these individual attempts to detract from his overall talent past injury concerns is just petty.

I try to be objective when evaluating free agents signed or prospects drafted by the Packers. Therefore you don't see me liking every move made by the team like several posters around here. Of course you're extremely exaggerating when you mention that I don't like nearly every player currently on the roster.

Kirksey might have received an offer averaging $10+ million in free agency if he had been able to stay healthy for the past two seasons but unfortunately he missed most games because of injuries. With Martinez actually receiving that kind of money that wouldn't have meant he's a significant upgrade over him as well.

As a side note, I agree that we shouldn't put too much stock into the one play on Henry's touchdown.

That depends on who you are, what you are capable of seeing, and getting buy in from the players to "do your job" on a given day which may not have been the job on the previous day.

Hoodie built his reputation as a defensive genius doing what you described, going all base against one opponent in the playoffs, all dime the next, finding matchups and throwing curveballs at the opponent's game plan. The Tuna didn't know what he was doing, questioned it, but is happy today that he let it roll. And that inventiveness didn't stop after he graduated from DC to HC.

Head coaches definitely needs to adjust their game plan based on opponents but there's no reason to alter the entire scheme, solely making offseason moves based on not matching up well with a single opponent.

 

[gopkrs]

With Martinez actually receiving that kind of money that wouldn't have meant he's a significant upgrade over him as well.

It sounds like you are saying that a players value is based on how much some team is willing to pay them. Teams make mistakes. And imho unless the Giants have some special type of defense for Martinez; they are one of those.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It sounds like you are saying that a players value is based on how much some team is willing to pay them. Teams make mistakes. And imho unless the Giants have some special type of defense for Martinez; they are one of those.

No, I was responding to Old School using average salary as a metric to evaluate performance. I agree the Giants will regret paying Martinez that much money.

 

[jon]

It sounds like you are saying that a players value is based on how much some team is willing to pay them.

Economist here. Thank you for this opportunity to be pedantic.

I'm sure I had you at 'economist here', but let me go on. In labor economics what teams pay is the player's price, how he plays is his utility, and how these relate is his value. Given that the NFL is a business, this view is most certainly understood by GMs, and by this standard, Kirksey is a good value.

From the Giants perspective, the margins are key. They are paying more for an IL and expect better performance. Is this trade off worth it to them? What we think of Martinez and how his performance compares to Kirksey mean nothing.

In football, however, passion and competitiveness run alongside the simple financials. We like Blake, he's always a good teammate, and it is not likely we'll see much difference on the field with the new guy so we don't like the roster move.

 

[OldSchool101]

No, I was responding to Old School using average salary as a metric to evaluate performance. I agree the Giants will regret paying Martinez that much money.

The point I really meant to infer was that Kirksey is generally on Martinez level give or take. At least past what you reiterated about Kirksey not being as reliable in more recent seasons, which I’m in agreement. The fact we didn’t spend $10 mil with $19 mil guaranteed (Blake) to get there is a bonus. (no pun).

One thing I’d offer is that obviously many players go through spurts of being injured and most have up and down injury seasons through their careers with few exceptions (Favre etc..). In Kirksey’s case he was similar to Martinez in that he was actually quite reliable on his Rookie contract. If we get that version of Kirksey in reliability? I don’t believe his level of play will be inferior to Martinez, at least not enough to draw attention. This bigger story of this season at LB is at the opposite ILB position and can we get some consistency of play there, we’ve had a revolving door at ILB for several years now.

While our current choices may not instill a great deal of confidence in us, as they are largely inexperienced overall... we can also note that we have several better options at ILB. A Sophomore season for Ty, Bolton is back from injury with a better understanding of what’s asked of him and a mid day 3 selection in Martin. While Burks has not instilled a warm and fuzzy (much what I feel what hampered by injuries) he does provide another competing option.

Once again, we don’t need 3-4 guys to improve, we need 1 guy to give us a marked improvement over the rotating door of 2019 (which the hurdle is set low) and any improvement past that is an added bonus.

I know I sound like a broken record in defense of several position groups and some may call me an optimist. However, I truly believe that each of those groups I defend are in better position to hit the green and at least Par verses our double Bogey last year and I don’t say that each year. Last year we hard sliced off the T and we were playing out of the sand trap on Hole #1 and behind a line of pine trees that were blocking our view of the hole. This year so far we hit a straight shot short, but 200 yards up the center of the fairway.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I just find it interesting that you’ve lately seemed to be in a full fledge attempt to discount nearly every player at every turn. I understand not liking the draft, but get over it.
The fact is that IF Kirksey had zero injury concerns? he’d be commanding a double digit annual salary and regardless of this particular play, his full body of work when healthy is really quite good. So these individual attempts to detract from his overall talent past injury concerns is just petty.

Though not directed at me, I like to think I share the Captain's dispassionate approach in analysis (nobody's p*ssed me off in quite a while with name calling ), so let me add my two cents.

You say Kirsey might have been a $10 mil/year player had he not been injured. That's plausible, given Martinez got that money. But just because the Packers signed him for $6 mil doesn't mean they got some kind of bargain. This is a player who missed 9 games in 2018 (hamstring) and 14 last year (torn pectoral).

Kirsey is clearly a risk/reward proposition. Just because we'd all be thrilled if he plays like a $10 mil ILB not named Martinez , you can't at this point ignore the clear possibility he will not given the possible accumulated affects of those injuries not only physically but possibly mentally.

Sometimes I think some fans immediately put on their rose colored glasses with respect to a player because if they they think if they don't they cannot be fully engaged with the team, part of the Packer ethos or "community" or whatever, or they won't appreciate that player's performance if he pans out because they've previously committed to some mixed view of him. All you have to do to fix that is be willing to change your mind, be willing to be pleasantly surprised. Pretty simple. As far as the game experience is concerned, I can assure you it is possible to take an analytical approach outside of it and become a fan at opening kickoff.

Why are we here? There are some not so good reasons, no one of which I'm specifically attributing to you.

• There's what I call Oprah-think, that unvarnished positivity regarding things over which you have no control expecting somehow the universe will open up good things coming your way. That's just new age gobblygook with a slippery slope down the false self-affirmation rabbit hole.

• There's fishing for likes to feel good about yourself, thin gruel to be sure.

• There's cheerleading for the feeling it gives you, virtually and with a bunch of people you don't know out in the ether no less, kinda empty outside the game experience.

• There's a delusion that any of us are "influencers". If you think anything you write here will end up in the crowd shouting louder or in Packer decision making would be delusional. A coach or even a professional media analyst reading this stuff is highly unlikely, and even if they did the impact would be negligible. The best you could expect is a guy who's at a loss for a story idea coming here to look for an angle.

A good reason to be here is to exchange ideas to get to a better understanding of a thing in which you are invested as part of a small community of like-invested minds. While any of us might stray from time-to-time, any other reason is pretty shallow. Of course this is a good place to pick up on all the relevant news, but there's no requirement to opine upon it.

That's my opinon and I'm sticking to it.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Economist here. Thank you for this opportunity to be pedantic.

I'm sure I had you at 'economist here', but let me go on. In labor economics what teams pay is the player's price, how he plays is his utility, and how these relate is his value. Given that the NFL is a business, this view is most certainly understood by GMs, and by this standard, Kirksey is a good value.

From the Giants perspective, the margins are key. They are paying more for an IL and expect better performance. Is this trade off worth it to them? What we think of Martinez and how his performance compares to Kirksey mean nothing.

In football, however, passion and competitiveness run alongside the simple financials. We like Blake, he's always a good teammate, and it is not likely we'll see much difference on the field with the new guy so we don't like the roster move.

While I appreciate the viewpoint I would take issue with a few things.

Whether we're talking about football players or something else, a determination of "value" at the time of acquistion is ultimately a projection of what a thing (or player) will bring you in the future, whether you measure that in tangibles or intangibles, either granularly or as something you see as a part that will make the whole greater beyond any granular statistical metric.

Assuming Martinez was not categorically opposed to returning to the Packers regardless of what they offered, what the Giants paid him is absolutely relevant. The Packers had a choice, Martinez or Kirksey, made on a projection of value between two players. Kirksey is less expensive but is a greater injury risk based on relative histories. In the end he was perceived as the better projection of value, the injury risk being monetarily offset.

If all you are saying it's water under the bridge now, with actual value to be determined in retrospect, then OK. But relative value projections were absolutely relevant in the decision making process.

I'm mystified by your last paragraph. We don't like which roster move? If we're not likely to see much difference on the field with the new guy, why wouldn't we like the roster move since the new guy is less expensive?

As an aside, however this fits into a projection of value, you've assumed Martinez was always a good teammate That does not appear to be the case in the "do your job" equation. He became a public excuse-maker. Early last season, with public criticism mounting about his play, he made a public statement that playing ILB is very hard in balancing run vs. pass defense, as plays develop I would presume to be his meaning. It's bad enough to respond to public criticism when the focus should be what your coaches think, but then whining about how hard your job is makes it even worse. Then, after the playoff loss, he was critical of his DC, saying his instructions were to just play off of Z. and Jones, the implication being they were given free reign to freelance while he had not specific assignments. I don't doubt that was the case, but again we have public excuse-making for having some UDFA yourneyman run roughshod. Besides, many teams allow players up front to freelance. If you want $10 mil per year you should be ready to handle that, and if it sometimes makes you look bad through no fault of your own, you're getting paid to suck it up.

My brute force NFL economics under a hard cap says the following. If you project that you will get $30 million in value from a $30 million player and that is exactly what you get, however you measure value, and the same calculation comes out all the way down the roster to the minimum salary rookies, you will be an 8-8 team.

Where you are most likely to find excess value over cost is in the rookie contracts where the salary scale is independent for free market value. Another kind of place to find excess value is with a player like Kirksey. If he stays healthy you just might get a $10 mil player for $6 mil, and that adds incrementally to the win column.

 

[OldSchool101]

Though not directed at me, I like to think I share the Captain's dispassionate approach in analysis (nobody's p*ssed me off in quite a while with name calling ), so let me add my two cents.

You say Kirsey might have been a $10 mil/year player had he not been injured. That's plausible, given Martinez got that money. But just because the Packers signed him for $6 mil doesn't mean they got some kind of bargain. This is a player who missed 9 games in 2018 (hamstring) and 14 last year (torn pectoral).

Kirsey is clearly a risk/reward proposition. Just because we'd all be thrilled if he plays like a $10 mil ILB not named Martinez , you can't at this point ignore the clear possibility he will not given the possible accumulated affects of those injuries not only physically but possibly mentally.

Sometimes I think some fans immediately put on their rose colored glasses with respect to a player because if they they think if they don't they cannot be fully engaged with the team, part of the Packer ethos or "community" or whatever, or they won't appreciate that player's performance if he pans out because they've previously committed to some mixed view of him. All you have to do to fix that is be willing to change your mind, be willing to be pleasantly surprised. Pretty simple. As far as the game experience is concerned, I can assure you it is possible to take an analytical approach outside of it and become a fan at opening kickoff.

Why are we here? There are some not so good reasons, no one of which I'm specifically attributing to you.

• There's what I call Oprah-think, that unvarnished positivity regarding things over which you have no control expecting somehow the universe will open up good things coming your way. That's just new age gobblygook with a slippery slope down the false self-affirmation rabbit hole.

• There's fishing for likes to feel good about yourself, thin gruel to be sure.

• There's cheerleading for the feeling it gives you, virtually and with a bunch of people you don't know out in the ether no less, kinda empty outside the game experience.

• There's a delusion that any of us are "influencers". If you think anything you write here will end up in the crowd shouting louder or in Packer decision making would be delusional. A coach or even a professional media analyst reading this stuff is highly unlikely, and even if they did the impact would be negligible. The best you could expect is a guy who's at a loss for a story idea coming here to look for an angle.

A good reason to be here is to exchange ideas to get to a better understanding of a thing in which you are invested as part of a small community of like-invested minds. While any of us might stray from time-to-time, any other reason is pretty shallow. Of course this is a good place to pick up on all the relevant news, but there's no requirement to opine upon it.

That's my opinon and I'm sticking to it.

I respect that HRE and I’ll admit that sometimes it gets frustrating because this world promotes negativity at every turn (just turn in the news or see the endless links coming at you)

I feel like I’m debating in a Bears forum sometimes and I’ve even been tough on you lately because I don’t like negativity and I don’t do well around it. I’m not wholly impressed with human intelligence because some of the smartest people I’ve ever met were as dumb as a hat in common sense. We’re all heavily flawed and that we share in common.

As far as clicks? Everyone wants to be liked and those that say they don’t care IMO actually care the most.

I’m a person of Faith and that’s because once I surrendered my Will to my Lord (at 44 years old) my entire world was ripped apart, but then changed for the better X 100 and I’m old enough to know I’m just not that lucky. Cudo’s to our creator for always wanting a relationship with us, I often wonder why he’d care, I probably wouldn’t in his place.

I’m not sure about Oprah? but I do know who’s given much is expected much and so I’m not envious at all of her because she still has got an absolute mountain to climb to impress our creator. I wouldn’t change places for all the T in China.

I like your thought on switching gears to fan at kickoff, that makes a lot of sense. I guess the lesson there is we can all do a better job of giving one another latitude in our approach, especially in these stressful times. The Holy Spirit has been speaking that to me, so I guess that’s my latest weakness, although in response, I have tried to be better behaved lately. I apologize for any remarks that may have rubbed you, I appreciate your and Captain’s love for the GBP

 

[HardRightEdge]

I respect that HRE and I’ll admit that sometimes it gets frustrating because this world promotes negativity at every turn (just turn in the news or see the endless links coming at you)

I feel like I’m debating in a Bears forum sometimes and I’ve even been tough on you lately because I don’t like negativity and I don’t do well around it. I’m not wholly impressed with human intelligence because some of the smartest people I’ve ever met were as dumb as a hat in common sense. We’re all heavily flawed and that we share in common.

As far as clicks? Everyone wants to be liked and those that say they don’t care IMO actually care the most.

I’m a person of Faith and that’s because once I surrendered my Will to my Lord (at 44 years old) my entire world was ripped apart, but then changed for the better X 100 and I’m old enough to know I’m just not that lucky. Cudo’s to our creator for always wanting a relationship with us, I often wonder why he’d care, I probably wouldn’t in his place.

I’m not sure about Oprah? but I do know who’s given much is expected much and so I’m not envious at all of her because she still has got an absolute mountain to climb to impress our creator. I wouldn’t change places for all the T in China.

I like your thought on switching gears to fan at kickoff, that makes a lot of sense. I guess the lesson there is we can all do a better job of giving one another latitude in our approach, especially in these stressful times. The Holy Spirit has been speaking that to me, so I guess that’s my latest weakness, although in response, I have tried to be better behaved lately. I apologize for any remarks that may have rubbed you, I appreciate your and Captain’s love for the GBP

I can appreciate that to a point.

The antidote to excessive negativity (or positivity) is analysis. It's the only way to not be buffetted though life by the winds of opinion.

One way we are quite different is that I am constitutionally indisposed toward "faith", in a God or otherwise. I don't begrudge anybody their religious faith, whatever gets you through the day, I say, provided it is not used as some kind of religious immunity cloak which is how you can get to things like inquisitions, crusades, genocides, witch burning or, ironically, cross burning, among other possible affronts to humanity.

Personally, I don't post for likes. First, I post to clarify my own thoughts. Putting things in writing for public view has a way of forcing focus. After that, I post to be read, not liked. Of course anybody would prefer to be liked as opposed to the alternative, but that's not my motiviation, nor should it be anybody else's unless that's how you make your money on youtube.

As an FYI, Oprah-think has as it's foundation the kind of thinking in the book "The Secret" which Oprah enthusiastially endorsed quite a few years back. I'll illustate with an example from my daily life.

Let's say I'm about to hit a golf shot. Confidence is paramount which is just the other side of the coin from "optimism". That could be visualizing the shot, "feeling" it and "seeing" it before it happens. It might not turn out that way, but it rarely will if I am not confident. Alternatively, I could get into "the zone" where I'm not thinking about anything at all in the moment. The mere absence of negativty can be quite powerful, a zen-like thing. Either way, this is a matter under my own control.

Now let's say I have a bet on somebody else's golf match and it comes down to a final shot. Being optimistic about the success of my guy's shot will have no affect whatsoever on the outcome. It would be absurd to think otherwise since it is entirely out of my control. "The Secret", and Oprah-think in general, would suggest your thoughts on the matter could influence the outcome through some mystical connection with the universe. C'mon. It's bad enough people believe this stuff; it's worse that people exploit that belief for profit. It's easy to belive because it promises sucess while being lazy. You can get things, including money as the story goes, by just deeply believing it will be so. The best I can say about Oprah's Oprah-think is she is self-deluded and not intentionally making a fortune on snake oil, just accidentally so.

Instead, I would suggest Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" as a more reasonable way to understand how success is achieved, and it based on luck a lot more than the successful would like you to believe.

 

[OldSchool101]

I can appreciate that to a point.

The antidote to excessive negativity (or positivity) is analysis. It's the only way to not be buffetted though life by the winds of opinion.

One way we are quite different is that I am constitutionally indisposed toward "faith", in a God or otherwise. I don't begrudge anybody their religious faith, whatever gets you through the day, I say, provided it is not used as some kind of religious immunity cloak which is how you can get to things like inquisitions, crusades, genocides, witch burning or, ironically, cross burning, among other possible affronts to humanity.

Personally, I don't post for likes. First, I post to clarify my own thoughts. Putting things in writing for public view has a way of forcing focus. After that, I post to be read, not liked. Of course anybody would prefer to be liked as opposed to the alternative, but that's not my motiviation, nor should it be anybody else's unless that's how you make your money on youtube.

As an FYI, Oprah-think has as it's foundation the kind of thinking in the book "The Secret" which Oprah enthusiastially endorsed quite a few years back. I'll illustate with an example from my daily life.

Let's say I'm about to hit a golf shot. Confidence is paramount which is just the other side of the coin from "optimism". That could be visualizing the shot, "feeling" it and "seeing" it before it happens. It might not turn out that way, but it rarely will if I am not confident. Alternatively, I could get into "the zone" where I'm not thinking about anything at all in the moment. The mere absence of negativty can be quite powerful, a zen-like thing. Either way, this is a matter under my own control.

Now let's say I have a bet on somebody else's golf match and it comes down to a final shot. Being optimistic about the success of my guy's shot will have no affect whatsoever on the outcome. It would be absurd to think otherwise since it is entirely out of my control. "The Secret", and Oprah-think in general, would suggest your thoughts on the matter could influence the outcome through some mystical connection with the universe. C'mon. It's bad enough people believe this stuff; it's worse that people exploit that belief for profit. It's easy to belive because it promises sucess while being lazy. You can get things, including money as the story goes, by just deeply believing it will be so. The best I can say about Oprah's Oprah-think is she is self-deluded and not intentionally making a fortune on snake oil, just accidentally so.

Instead, I would suggest Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" as a more reasonable way to understand how success is achieved, and it based on luck a lot more than the successful would like you to believe.

I’ve watched “the Secret” and I don’t subscribe to that stuff. Nor do I witchcraft, fortune telling or the like. I used to like psychic and ghost hunter until I found out that have not been biblically sound and this has been known for thousands of years. Each new generation thinks they can reinvent the wheel with being the “exceptional” generation as if we’re somehow immune to being human. It’s just laughable actually.
No I don’t believe in fairytales. I do believe in miracles (you call luck) because I’m old enough to have experienced both the “unlucky/unfaithful” run and the “faithful/lucky” run. I’m nit sure why he picked me honestly? I certainly didn’t deserve it, if anything I should be a total castoff with all the crap I pulled.
It must have something to do with giving up, letting go and totally going out on a limb on Faith with zero proof it would work (definition of Faith is trust and it’s also my daughters name that came on my 50th birthday —also known as luck ) and Boy did it pay and the payback was phenomenal! because once I did that my life changed for the better.
Oddly, the more I thought I was in control those first 4.5 decades or relied on luck? The worse thing got..and it will sound strange but I’m so thankful God recalibrated me because I hear some of my “old” self in you. Lately, I feel like he wrote that Prodigal Son story for me! You can borrow it one day if you need it.. to get “lucky” but trust me? it’s my story again when you’re done HRE.

To stay in thread the answer is Pettine needs to stay relatively close to that top 12 scoring range or his career in GB will be shortened.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

We like Blake, he's always a good teammate, and it is not likely we'll see much difference on the field with the new guy so we don't like the roster move.

Actually most Packers fans were in favor of letting Martinez walk this offseason.

The point I really meant to infer was that Kirksey is generally on Martinez level give or take. At least past what you reiterated about Kirksey not being as reliable in more recent seasons, which I’m in agreement. The fact we didn’t spend $10 mil with $19 mil guaranteed (Blake) to get there is a bonus. (no pun).

One thing I’d offer is that obviously many players go through spurts of being injured and most have up and down injury seasons through their careers with few exceptions (Favre etc..). In Kirksey’s case he was similar to Martinez in that he was actually quite reliable on his Rookie contract. If we get that version of Kirksey in reliability? I don’t believe his level of play will be inferior to Martinez, at least not enough to draw attention. This bigger story of this season at LB is at the opposite ILB position and can we get some consistency of play there, we’ve had a revolving door at ILB for several years now.

While our current choices may not instill a great deal of confidence in us, as they are largely inexperienced overall... we can also note that we have several better options at ILB. A Sophomore season for Ty, Bolton is back from injury with a better understanding of what’s asked of him and a mid day 3 selection in Martin. While Burks has not instilled a warm and fuzzy (much what I feel what hampered by injuries) he does provide another competing option.

Once again, we don’t need 3-4 guys to improve, we need 1 guy to give us a marked improvement over the rotating door of 2019 (which the hurdle is set low) and any improvement past that is an added bonus.

I agree that Kirksey is at least on a level with Martinez but a lot of fans seem to think he's a huge upgrade which I don't agree with.

Unfortunately I'm not confident any of the other inside linebackers on the roster should instill confidence in the position group.

 

[jon]

While I appreciate the viewpoint I would take issue with a few things.

Whether we're talking about football players or something else, a determination of "value" at the time of acquistion is

Thanks for the reply. I'm surprised, to be frank; no one in his right mind has ever come here to read about econ.

I take your point, though, but I'm not talking in relative terms. A player will be a value or not, knowable only after he performs. You've introduced 'rational expectations', a Nobel winning concept which absolutely drives decision making. We all expect Kirksey and Blake to perform more or less the same so the lower price makes Kirskey a bargain ... or does it make Blake a waste of money? Depends on your perspective.

Such comparisons only go so far. I might want a Mercedes but I can't afford it so it doesn't matter how good it is (or how good I think it is); it's not a factor and I end up with a Hyundai.

I am not saying Kirksey is a Korean piece of crap that goes back to the shop twice in 6 months-- his injury history might have made a $10mln IL into a bargain 6, or however much it is-- and we'll all be happy if there's an improvement in the middle of the D. Mine is just a different take on the as yet unfounded optimism about his arrival.


And, yes, I do like Blake. I have no trouble with a player voicing discontent and disagreement. Nobody spouted off during Lombardi's time, but things are different now, and players give candid interviews every day.

I understand some people dislike it and even see that this is not 'the Packer way', but then I hear the chatter that fills the void left by, say, Rodgers' comparative silence on issues some other teams' leaders would be talking about, and I really dislike that blather. There are very few talking heads on ESPN and elsewhere that impress me, and when they go off on whatever riff to shout about what Rodgers isn't saying, I change the channel. But I'll listen to Richard Sherman and the others when they open up-- unfiltered opinions at least.

 

[Zartan]

If the D does not improve or regress I would say ditch him. I dont want him to be another Dom Capers where we just hold on to someone for season after season not improving and holding the team back.

I really hope he watched the SF games and see where the D can work on.

 

[Mavster]

If we witness yet another historically poor defensive performance in the playoffs then I'd say he needs to go. Let MLF find his own guy.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Thanks for the reply. I'm surprised, to be frank; no one in his right mind has ever come here to read about econ.

There are a few of us who spend considerable time analyzing the cap which I suppose in an exercise in microeconomics. It might be worth repeating that the rookie salary scale sits outside ordinary economic considerations because the cost is relatively cheap and non-negotiable. The same applies to UDFAs if you hit on some who contribute. They get paid dirt as a rookie and are still very cheap going forward under Exclusive Rights and Restricted free agency.

I might want a Mercedes but I can't afford it so it doesn't matter how good it is (or how good I think it is); it's not a factor and I end up with a Hyundai.

Recently I've done considerable research and done test drives on 2-row and 3-row crossover AWD SUVS, those with unibodies not really suitable for off-roading. Frankly, when you put a Mazda CX-5 or a Hyundai Telluride against a comparably sized and trimmed Mercedes the difference is mostly in the badge, and the Mercedes is more likely than those vehicles to end up in the service bay.

In fact, there have been several European high end vehicles with turbos that have been prone to burning a quart of oil every thousand miles according to a Consumer Reports study a couple years back. You can spend $100,000+ and have the same problem as with a 1980 Detroit econobox. What fun. I can't recall if Mercedes had these problems but the Porsche Panamara was one of them and there was also an Audi. Tip: You can lease anything for 3 years and get away with it, but if you like to keep a vehicle for 10 years and 150,000 miles as I'm prone to do, I sure wouldn't buy a Mercedes and I would not buy anybody's turbo. If you need a badge and want to stay out of the shop, go buy a Lexus.

Which raises a relevant question. How much do you want to pay for the status symbol of the Mercedes three-pointed star or some like badge? It's an intangible. We start to move away from "rational expectations" and into behavioral economics.

There is a football point here. Is Tampa Bay all that certain that Brady has enough in the tank to make his contract worthwhile? Perhaps not, but for a team that often fails to fill their stadium I'm pretty sure selling more season tickets was a major factor. Brady may be a 3-pointed star in terms of winning football games though putting butts in seats doesn't qualify as an intangible. But you get the point.

And, yes, I do like Blake. I have no trouble with a player voicing discontent and disagreement.

Martinez in an OK player, he has had difficulty in play recognition, not that quick in going from a run read to pass reaction and vise versa. He did a lot of cleanup tackling to pad the numbers which does have value over a guy with a weak motor, so give him that, and he's certainly durable taking nearly 100% snaps over his 4 years. He's not a $10 mil player, though, and certainly not in this system. He might look a little better in a different scheme but there is a limit.

I don't have a particular problem with a player voicing concerns about how things are going depending on what they have to say and how it is done. Woodson did it. Rodgers did it pretty dramatically, a contributor to getting McCarthy fired, though it is hard to argue with the results. Martinez, on the other hand, was whining. "My job is hard, man!" That's not constructive. The scheme is the scheme and you're not going to change that, certainly not a player of his caliber. Belichick's "do your job" has no place for that, why should anybody else's? Randall got fired (OK, traded, same thing, but the players wanted him fired) for his on-field tantrum, though we can reckon that was a straw that broke the camel's back. Might he have been right about what he was complaining about? Maybe, but there a line beyond which that's beside the point. There is no whining football.

I understand some people dislike it and even see that this is not 'the Packer way', but then I hear the chatter that fills the void left by, say, Rodgers' comparative silence on issues some other teams' leaders would be talking about, and I really dislike that blather.

Didn't Rodgers give you quite an earful in 2018 and, to repeat, helped get McCarthy out the door, though there were underlying "accountability" and "complacency" issues in there as well.

Anyway, why shoould you take seriously the chatter into the void? The professional chattering class is so wrong so often it's laughable. Other than guys covering the beat, I don't even listen to any of them, I don't watch their pregame shows, none of it. If somebody says something dramatically stupid I'll find out about it here.

I see there are posts about Rodgers stumping for free agents retained or not. I think he found out early on in stumping for Wells' re-signing that Thompson was going to do his own thing. There was another similar case but the name eludes me. Rodgers tone became, "yeah I'd like to keep that guy but I'm aware this is a business." Why not? Thompson was doing his own thing and Gutekunst surely is--you need look no further than this last draft. Frankly, I'd rather hear nothing from the franchise QB than the usual content-less happy talk. Silence is sure a lot better than Brees putting his foot in it and then ending up in a Twitter sh*t show with Trump. Theater of the absurd should be left to others.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Martinez has been a good player for the Packers while he was here; however, his problem was that he would be very good in some areas and very weak others. He didn't get hurt much and was a constant on the defense, so there's value in that. The main issue is that the Packers' salary cap structure doesn't allow the team to really pay the going rate for an average ILB. The team is paying about 78% of its 2020 cap space on their top 19 players (I just scrolled down 2020 cap figure until I hit Marcedes Lewis), that doesn't leave much room to spend on an extra $6m on an ILB.

And the salary structure is the way it is because the Packers had to overpay to compensate for TT's awful last few drafts. The top 19 players for the Saints, another pretty good team, account for 64% of the 2020 salary cap. The primary difference is that the only guy the Saints are paying over 5% of the cap on is Brees while the Packers are paying Rodgers, both Smiths, Adams, Bak, and Linsley over 5%. Now, Michael Thomas will go up to a little more than what Adams costs in 2021, but the Saints have been able to re-sign guys they drafted to cheaper deals than the Packers have had to pay to go out and get both Smiths, Amos, and Turner; not much cheaper, but it adds up over an entire roster. That means the team needs to sacrifice elsewhere; this year that was ILB and next year it will probably end up being ILB and CB.

It takes time to recover from so many misses on defense in the draft and the decisions to let Hyde and Hayward walk are also not helping very much since the team is still playing catch up at those spots (Hayward is currently costing a little more than Linsley against the cap and Hyde costs about $1.5m less than Billy Turner ($3m less than Amos). Luckily, the team appears to have made good signings in the Smiths and Amos; the offense just needs to be elite enough to force other teams to pass because this team is going to take a while to become one of the better defenses in the NFL.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

If the D does not improve or regress I would say ditch him. I dont want him to be another Dom Capers where we just hold on to someone for season after season not improving and holding the team back.

I really hope he watched the SF games and see where the D can work on.

I agree the Packers defense played lousy vs. the Niners in the NFCCG but fans need to realize that the unit improved significantly in 2019, finishing ninth in points allowed compared to 22nd the previous season.

Martinez has been a good player for the Packers while he was here; however, his problem was that he would be very good in some areas and very weak others. He didn't get hurt much and was a constant on the defense, so there's value in that. The main issue is that the Packers' salary cap structure doesn't allow the team to really pay the going rate for an average ILB. The team is paying about 78% of its 2020 cap space on their top 19 players (I just scrolled down 2020 cap figure until I hit Marcedes Lewis), that doesn't leave much room to spend on an extra $6m on an ILB.

In my opinion the Packers shouldn't have offered Martinez anywhere close to $10 million a season even if they could have made it work regarding the salary cap.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

In my opinion the Packers shouldn't have offered Martinez anywhere close to $10 million a season even if they could have made it work regarding the salary cap.

I wasn't trying to imply they should. However, keep in mind that based on avg per year, Martinez is now the 23rd highest paid ILB...so, signing an average ILB in free agency is going to cost at least as much as Martinez costs. I do think that Martinez gets a little too much blame for his performance the past couple of years; he hasn't exactly been surrounded by a ton of help and was being asked to do a lot of things that he wouldn't have had to do in a defense with better personnel.

 

[jon]

Frankly, when you put a Mazda CX-5 or a Hyundai Telluride against a comparably sized and trimmed Mercedes the difference is mostly in the badge, and the Mercedes is more likely than those vehicles to end up in the service bay.

Football and cars. All we need is a backyard, a grill, and some brats.

My son has the Cx-5 and loves it.

FWIW, I drive a '94 Mercedes E320 convertible, love it, and recommend it. You can get a decent one for 7 or 8 thousand, give an old immigrant mechanic that much again (mine's from Iran), and end up with a great piece of hand-made German quality. In fact, it's the last hand-made model year Mercedes, I believe, and will never go down in value.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Football and cars. All we need is a backyard, a grill, and some brats.

My son has the Cx-5 and loves it.

FWIW, I drive a '94 Mercedes E320 convertible, love it, and recommend it. You can get a decent one for 7 or 8 thousand, give an old immigrant mechanic that much again (mine's from Iran), and end up with a great piece of hand-made German quality. In fact, it's the last hand-made model year Mercedes, I believe, and will never go down in value.

Throw in golf (the game, not the car) and you've ticked off my three primary hobby horses at the moment. There's a CX-5 in my future. We switched gears from swapping out the current hauler for the Telluride to swapping out the sport sedan for the CX-5 for a common reason among the aging--a certain family member needs a higher step-in.

There is a football connection here. You're talking about a 26 year old Mercedes, not the current versions or their competion or competing vehicles folks do not regard as such because of badge fixation. What worked best yesterday cannot be counted on to work best tomorrow, and that includes football offensive systems.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Head coaches definitely needs to adjust their game plan based on opponents but there's no reason to alter the entire scheme, solely making offseason moves based on not matching up well with a single opponent.

Of course, but that has never been my argument. You need to adjust your game plan for every opponent even to the extent that you are running something that looks like a different scheme if that is what's called for. That's what the best do. Put some FUD, or at least the UD part, in the other guy and you've won most of the battle. Imagination and flexibility is the key along with populating the roster with players who can handle that. "Do your job" isn't some fixed thing. It's do your job as it is defined this week which might be something different next week.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I wasn't trying to imply they should. However, keep in mind that based on avg per year, Martinez is now the 23rd highest paid ILB...so, signing an average ILB in free agency is going to cost at least as much as Martinez costs.

Based on average salary per season Martinez is ranked ninth among all inside linebackers in the league.