Improving the Defense for 2017....How and Who?

[Dantés]

People keep bringing up Hayward but what people gotta remember is he was hurt most of the time he played in Green Bay. He lacked elite speed to play outside in Capers system and was best used in the slot. He obviously could of been used last year but there is more to it then just keeping him.

I think its great to see what Hayward has done in San Diego and im happy for him but if you have Shields and supposedly two emerging young guys why pay Hayward big money when at the time he had availability concerns and was seen as a slot corner in system?

The fact is some guys you lose and do better in a new surrounding or a new system. You cant just take Haywards success in San Diego and automatically assume that same success would of happened if he was still in Green Bay.

Jarred Cook was considred a bum most of his career and now a season later in Green Bay and he is looked at as a pretty damn good player. The problem on defense cuts deeper then Casey Hayward.

The assertion isn't that he would have done equally as well had he stayed in Green Bay. Rather, it's that the Packers had a corner with All-Pro potential (outside OR in the slot) and the defensive staff could not unlock that potential in 4 years. I'm sure he wouldn't have done as well had he stayed. But that's the red flag, as I see it. I watched almost every snap that Hayward played in 2016. There was no justifiable reason for his capability to be overlooked by the GB staff. He was excellent in both man and zone coverage. He had plenty of functional speed. If a guy that capable isn't good enough for your scheme, then your scheme is broken.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The assertion isn't that he would have done equally as well had he stayed in Green Bay. Rather, it's that the Packers had a corner with All-Pro potential (outside OR in the slot) and the defensive staff could not unlock that potential in 4 years. I'm sure he wouldn't have done as well had he stayed. But that's the red flag, as I see it. I watched almost every snap that Hayward played in 2016. There was no justifiable reason for his capability to be overlooked by the GB staff. He was excellent in both man and zone coverage. He had plenty of functional speed. If a guy that capable isn't good enough for your scheme, then your scheme is broken.

Hayward played on a pretty high level during his rookie season in Green Bay but was slowed by injuries afterwards and struggled on the perimeter.

 

[Dantés]

Hayward played on a pretty high level during his rookie season in Green Bay but was slowed by injuries afterwards and struggled on the perimeter.

His sophomore season was injury plagued, but he never missed a game outside of that year. I realize that in Green Bay he was worse on the outside than he was in the slot. But outside of Green Bay, he was far better both inside and outside. And it wasn't like he wasn't asked to play man coverage any more. So my argument is that there was something wrong with the development or schematic implimentation by the staff while he was a Packer.

 

[brandon2348]

The assertion isn't that he would have done equally as well had he stayed in Green Bay. Rather, it's that the Packers had a corner with All-Pro potential (outside OR in the slot) and the defensive staff could not unlock that potential in 4 years. I'm sure he wouldn't have done as well had he stayed. But that's the red flag, as I see it. I watched almost every snap that Hayward played in 2016. There was no justifiable reason for his capability to be overlooked by the GB staff. He was excellent in both man and zone coverage. He had plenty of functional speed. If a guy that capable isn't good enough for your scheme, then your scheme is broken.

I agree with this and I stated in the post "that the problem on defense cuts deeper then Hayward" and that's what takes the whole thing back to Capers yet here we are going into another off-season with him at the helm. I've been doing my yearly pre-draft look at players and looking at previous drafts and realize there are multiple problems going on here but nothing changes. TT hasn't been helping the proublem by the players he has been drafting on the defensive side of ball which feeds into this whole thing that Capers doesn't have the necessary tools to be successful. In free agency all TT has done is go out and get him an older Julius Peppers. There seems to be a disconnect to what TT believes the defense needs to be successful and what Capers defensive scheme actually requires.

The bottom line is there failing and things don't appear to be heading in the right direction but MM will jump on a podium and tell you they got a handle on it and there gonna work on it but nothing seems to change. Its very frustrating to say the least.

 

[Dantés]

I agree with this and I stated in the post "that the problem on defense cuts deeper then Hayward" and that's what takes the whole thing back to Capers yet here we are going into another off-season with him at the helm. I've been doing my yearly pre-draft look at players and looking at previous drafts and realize there are multiple problems going on here but nothing changes. TT hasn't been helping the proublem by the players he has been drafting on the defensive side of ball which feeds into this whole thing that Capers doesn't have the necessary tools to be successful. In free agency all TT has done is go out and get him an older Julius Peppers. There seems to be a disconnect to what TT believes the defense needs to be successful and what Capers defensive scheme actually requires.

The bottom line is there failing and things don't appear to be heading in the right direction but MM will jump on a podium and tell you they got a handle on it and there gonna work on it but nothing seems to change. Its very frustrating to say the least.

The success of Hayward outside of GB causes me to wonder (and I do mean wonder-- not conclude) to what extent talent is the issue. Is there untapped talent on the defense that Capers and his staff isn't developing? It's hard to say, but I think this current system has had plenty of time to figure things out and has failed to do so. I struggle to believe that TT could be so astute at finding offensive talent and so inept at finding defensive talent. I think there's something else at play there.

Dom Capers kind of reminds me of Norv Turner. He's a good defensive mind and can put a system together, but he needs pretty specific personnel to make his system work. If he doesn't have that personnel, he lacks the flexibility to adapt his scheme to what he has and mitigate some of the weaknesses. Some defensive coordinators are less system driven and more willing to adapt to the players they have. At this point in time, I think the Packers would benefit more from that style of coordinator. But they have what they have at this point.

 

[Ted Thompson's Mind]

Don't worry guys. Help is on the way. Got my eye on a 6th round ILB from Bethune-Cookman.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The success of Hayward outside of GB causes me to wonder (and I do mean wonder-- not conclude) to what extent talent is the issue. Is there untapped talent on the defense that Capers and his staff isn't developing? It's hard to say, but I think this current system has had plenty of time to figure things out and has failed to do so. I struggle to believe that TT could be so astute at finding offensive talent and so inept at finding defensive talent. I think there's something else at play there.

Dom Capers kind of reminds me of Norv Turner. He's a good defensive mind and can put a system together, but he needs pretty specific personnel to make his system work. If he doesn't have that personnel, he lacks the flexibility to adapt his scheme to what he has and mitigate some of the weaknesses. Some defensive coordinators are less system driven and more willing to adapt to the players they have. At this point in time, I think the Packers would benefit more from that style of coordinator. But they have what they have at this point.

PFF graded Hayward at least above average during every single one of his three full seasons in Green Bay. It seems the Packers front office and a lot of fans thought he was expendable last offseason though.

While he excelled with the Chargers in 2016 he's most likely the only defensive player that has performed on a significant better level than while withon Capers scheme.

Therefore I believe the Packers mostly struggle on defense because of a lack of talent.

 

[Dantés]

PFF graded Hayward at least above average during every single one of his three full seasons in Green Bay. It seems the Packers front office and a lot of fans thought he was expendable last offseason though.

While he excelled with the Chargers in 2016 he's most likely the only defensive player that has performed on a significant better level than while withon Capers scheme.

Therefore I believe the Packers mostly struggle on defense because of a lack of talent.

There's hardly a big sample size of highly drafted players that have moved on though. So it's hard to draw a conclusion.

 

[PikeBadger]

PFF graded Hayward at least above average during every single one of his three full seasons in Green Bay. It seems the Packers front office and a lot of fans thought he was expendable last offseason though.

While he excelled with the Chargers in 2016 he's most likely the only defensive player that has performed on a significant better level than while withon Capers scheme.

Therefore I believe the Packers mostly struggle on defense because of a lack of talent.

I think many felt he was expendable because they felt he was best suited to play the same position as Hyde, Gunter and possibly Rollins who were all cheaper alternatives. Imo, the early season flood of injuries to Burnett, Shields and Randall/Rollins put a bunch of our backups in positions where they were not best suited to play. Combined with the inconsistent pass rushing, it created the results we witnessed.

 

[Sky King]

What about Pacman Jones?

Too late. The Bengals have already traded him to San Quentin.

 

[easyk83]

PFF graded Hayward at least above average during every single one of his three full seasons in Green Bay. It seems the Packers front office and a lot of fans thought he was expendable last offseason though.

While he excelled with the Chargers in 2016 he's most likely the only defensive player that has performed on a significant better level than while withon Capers scheme.

Therefore I believe the Packers mostly struggle on defense because of a lack of talent.

Which again leads one to wonder whether or not Capers scheme makes this defense look worse than it should. IMHO even the dumbed down version that we've seen likely still has too many checks and reads, which could exclaim why young players in the secondary look so lost at times.

 

[sdh09e44]

What I can't stand is how much worse the secondary was without Sam Shields and Casey. 6th ranked to 29th? That's insanity.

And a comment from capers where he said " we are a completely different defense without Sam in the lineup".

I wonder if that is just lip service etc or if his unit really is completely different without him. Which ok, it makes sense to an extent, without your #1 CB stuff will change. But my issue is that we clearly didn't have one other CB that was even a little bit capable of covering legit #1 WRs. That is NOT OK when you recently drafted two CBs back to back on the 1st and 2nd. Tough pill to swallow when you invest two early picks at a position and they can't even resemble being a #1 at that spot.

*Yes some injuries happened to Rollins and Randall but at the same time they looked pretty awful vs the vikings and lions.


Which then brings the point back on TT, he failed to give Capers another high level CB. The unit was 10th in 2014 and like i said 6th in 2015. Then sunk to bottom of the league without any legit CBs.

"There seems to be a disconnect to what TT believes the defense needs to be successful and what Capers defensive scheme actually requires"............spot on ?

 

[PackerDNA]

Which again leads one to wonder whether or not Capers scheme makes this defense look worse than it should. IMHO even the dumbed down version that we've seen likely still has too many checks and reads, which could exclaim why young players in the secondary look so lost at times.

Maybe we have stupid players.

 

[easyk83]

What I can't stand is how much worse the secondary was without Sam Shields and Casey. 6th ranked to 29th? That's insanity.

And a comment from capers where he said " we are a completely different defense without Sam in the lineup".

I wonder if that is just lip service etc or if his unit really is completely different without him. Which ok, it makes sense to an extent, without your #1 CB stuff will change. But my issue is that we clearly didn't have one other CB that was even a little bit capable of covering legit #1 WRs. That is NOT OK when you recently drafted two CBs back to back on the 1st and 2nd. Tough pill to swallow when you invest two early picks at a position and they can't even resemble being a #1 at that spot.

*Yes some injuries happened to Rollins and Randall but at the same time they looked pretty awful vs the vikings and lions.


Which then brings the point back on TT, he failed to give Capers another high level CB. The unit was 10th in 2014 and like i said 6th in 2015. Then sunk to bottom of the league without any legit CBs.

"There seems to be a disconnect to what TT believes the defense needs to be successful and what Capers defensive scheme actually requires"............spot on ?

Do you remember the games without Sam Shields last year? Do you remember how bad they looked against noodle armed Manning and San Diego? Consider the receivers without Jordy, why did his absence affect the others so much? Part of it's pressure, when the lead guy goes down it puts a strain on young players like Adams and Randall. Part of it is depth and bodies, it's tough to rehab guys and get them back into playing shape when you don't have the time to bring them back properly... and you're gambling that he can play and get healthy at the same time. When players do get injured especially in the legs they tend to compensate and this puts more strain on the other leg which leads to more injuries.

Personally I think Capers ran a better defense with the guys that TT provided for a 43 D than he did with the cats provided for his defense. Capers has a track record, the guy's a miracle worker for about two years and then his defenses steadily decline. Likely, as he settles into the role he starts pushing his full scheme and schematically speaking it's a God awful mess. IMHO the defense imitated the offense of last year, the personnel were better than what the production showed.

I do think that sacking Capers and providing a more player friendly system would likely help.

 

[easyk83]

1995 Dom Capers as Head Coach of the Carolina Panthers managed to put together the number 8 scoring defense with an expansion team. 96 Capers has the number 2 defense with a second year expansion team, no matter how you slice it this is brilliant coaching. 97 they're down to 13 and by 98 they're back to 27... sound familiar? That year the Jacksonville Jaguars are at 23.

1999 Jacksonville Jaguars, number 1 scoring defense in the NFL . Again genius work, 2001 he takes the HC position of the Houston Texans which was a tour de failure.

Maybe we have stupid players.

Id agree if his defenses didn't have a similar track record of brilliant initial success and then eventual failure.

 

[Poppa San]

Don't worry guys. Help is on the way. Got my eye on a 6th round ILB from Bethune-Cookman.

I expect he'll be a competent player with a decent career after seasoning. Get him. It's the discuss thrower that no one ever heard about from Small School State that you have pegged for the second round that concerns me.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

There's hardly a big sample size of highly drafted players that have moved on though. So it's hard to draw a conclusion.

Mike Neal, Jerel Worthy and Khyri Thornton were all drafted within the first three rounds and didn´t perform any better with other teams than in Green Bay.

I think many felt he was expendable because they felt he was best suited to play the same position as Hyde, Gunter and possibly Rollins who were all cheaper alternatives. Imo, the early season flood of injuries to Burnett, Shields and Randall/Rollins put a bunch of our backups in positions where they were not best suited to play. Combined with the inconsistent pass rushing, it created the results we witnessed.

As I´ve mentioned repeatedly it was the right decision to let Hayward walk away in free agency last offseason.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

IMHO the defense imitated the offense of last year, the personnel were better than what the production showed.

It´s impossible to know as long as Capers remains the Packers defensive coordinator but I highly doubt he had a lot of talent to work with in 2016.

 

[Dantés]

Mike Neal, Jerel Worthy and Khyri Thornton were all drafted within the first three rounds and didn´t perform any better with other teams than in Green Bay.



As I´ve mentioned repeatedly it was the right decision to let Hayward walk away in free agency last offseason.

Right, 4 players. Not a very large sample size.

To each there own. I think letting Hayward walk made little sense at the time and less now in retrospect.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I think letting Hayward walk made little sense at the time and less now in retrospect.

We have to agree to disagree on the part in bold.

 

[Packer Brother]

Would you trade Matthews and two 1st for Von Miller?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Would you trade Matthews and two 1st for Von Miller?

No.

 

[Packer Brother]

No.

Wow you wouldn't? Why not.

 

[C-Lee]

Wow you wouldn't? Why not.

Clay for Von Miller straight up

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Wow you wouldn't? Why not.

Giving up Matthews and two first round picks is too steep of an asking price.