Brown traded to Raiders

[Mondio]

Just to bring some reality to the Mack trade as brought to us by our resident researcher Hardrightedge

So, lets revist where we would be if the Packers had dealt for Mack on similar terms as the Bears using that $23.7 in usable FA cap space as illustrated in the above post.

Mack's cap number was $13.8 mil for 2018 and $22.3 mil for 2019. Those numbers alone put you $12.4 mil over the usable 2019 cap before the following adjustments.

Mack's 2018 number would have put the team over the cap at that time. The most plausible solution to get under the cap would have been to cut Matthews to pick up $11 mil in cap space. Had that been done, we'd now be standing at $1.4 mil over the usable FA cap space.

Further, the two first rounders this year are roughly equivalent to what the Bears gave up. So, if you're not signing those guys because you traded them you gain about $3.8 mil in cap if you swap out those guys for the next two guys below the top 53. That gets you to $2.4 mil in usable FA cap. Cut Perry and you get to $5.7 mil for FAs.

So, that leaves you with the current roster plus Mack, very little for FAs whether you cut Perry or not, and you've lost your two first round picks. Cut more of those guys in the list in the above post and you add some dough to the usable cap space.

Boil it down, and you would have traded two first round picks and surrendered $25 mil in cap space, i.e., 2 or 3 quality free agent signings now. One HOF Edge rusher for 4 or 5 players to rebuild the roster.

See why that would have been a terrible trade? And why I concluded from the get go that Gutekunst never got very far with that? You have to look past "win now" when you don't have a loaded roster with a bunch of rookie contract stars to begin with.

With the Bears making that deal and coming up short, they are cap strapped and will be losing a player or two they'd rather not with no first round pick this year or next to reload.

No player other than a QB is worth this kind of money especially when giving up those kinds of picks.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Depending on what the Packers do with Cobb, there could be a need at the slot WR position. If that happens the Packers have quite a few options; current players, FA's, draft or trade. Personally, I think we saw enough potential out of MVS, EQ and possibly Kumerow, as well as Allison has the experience, that at least 2 have a future in Green Bay. Even if Brown didn't have the back story, I think he is a luxury the Packers shouldn't try to afford. Too many other needs and I just don't see WR as one of those that you invest that much or take that big of a risk on in the case of AB.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Just to bring some reality to the Mack trade as brought to us by our resident researcher Hardrightedge

Yeah...but...but ....but the Packers would have won the Super Bowl last year with Mack

I still don't think the Raiders were thinking that trade would get them the #24th pick in this years draft from the Bears, more like a top 5. Nor were they viewing the value of the Packers 2 pics at #12 and #30....more like #28 and #30.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Plenty of players i'd pay and trade for in this league. I said I could maybe convinced of a 3rd for AB with a condition on playing time that would move it back or void it completely if he holds out.

and as I've said before, the Steelers were better all the way around on offense and brown didn't put them over the top did he? but you're going to guarantee it here? Sure he could, but AB isn't the only path to a super bowl for this team and i'm not sure he's even a likely path to one either.

After AB's latest comments, I don't think any team is going to trade for him, not even a 3rd, until they iron out the contract details and what his willingness to play for will be. No doubt his current contract could end up being a bargain, but I don't think he will play if its still in tact. Which in itself is a crazy stance on his part IMO, his guarantees with that deal have already been paid out to him. Shouldn't matter if he is playing for the Steelers or the Packers under it, he signed it.

 

[Do7]

Oh I think most rational people can see a difference. I have to say though... Your constant defense of Rodgers whenever anyone says anything negative about him is eroding your credibility even when you are right. Personally, I actually like Rodgers. Not everything about him of course, but I think he is an intelligent and incredibly talented player. Most of the times he says all the right things, but I also think there is enough circumstantial evidence throughout the years to believe that there is some truth to the criticisms he has been given. I think many are probably exaggerated, but frankly I don’t really care all that much. I just want him to play as well as he has shown that he can. However, to get this back on topic, I do think there is a valid concern that he may have personality conflicts with Brown whether or not he calls him out in public.

For the sake of preventing any drama I'll shoot you a PM, regarding my stance since this seems to be an issue.

 

[Do7]

There isn't just "one" way of doing it. A team can still go after FA's to fill immediate needs and draft and develop to hopefully fill future needs. I don't think Thompson's system is a bad one, but where it falls apart is when you bust out on too many picks, which Thompson did the last several years. Nor do I think signing FA's is bad, but if you have Aaron Rodgers on your books and go out and sign the highest paid defensive player, that sure doesn't leave you much for the other 51+ players.

A healthy balance between the methods is what I like to see and some years you hit and some you don't, but the following year, you may have to double down on either FA's or drafting.

Please don't misunderstand, I agree that a healthy balance of the two are essential, but the greatest example I look at is Reggie White. That dude was a big FA and we took a risk on and we wounded up as SB champions. I just think that when it comes to generational players (I'm referring more to Mack, than AB we have to capitalize on it. Hence why I'm so adamant on getting Von Miller XD) I believe the payoff will end up being more rewarding, especially considering we've burned through a lot of years in regards to Arodg, and he's getting older.

 

[AmishMafia]

Please don't misunderstand, I agree that a healthy balance of the two are essential, but the greatest example I look at is Reggie White. That dude was a big FA and we took a risk on and we wounded up as SB champions. I just think that when it comes to generational players (I'm referring more to Mack, than AB we have to capitalize on it. Hence why I'm so adamant on getting Von Miller XD) I believe the payoff will end up being more rewarding, especially considering we've burned through a lot of years in regards to Arodg, and he's getting older.

In addition to Reggie being a generational talent, he was also emotionally mature and had a high character. AB on the other hand is selfish and immature. The idea that he is already demanding additional guaranteed money shows me this whole ordeal is still lost on him. I'm not sure ABs comments will have an effect on his value. It more confirms what teams already knew, he is a selfish and childish jerk. Maybe he fetches a late 2nd but I think that's on the high end.

 

[sschind]

If Brown is in fact angling for a new deal it changes everything. One of the biggest positives in trading for him right now is getting a top level talent for a bargain price (whether you can afford that price or not doesn't change the fact that AB for what he is currently scheduled to make is a bargain)

If he is going to demand a new contract with huge guarantees, which I could see him wanting since none of the next three years are guaranteed, its going to remove one of the other positives of trading for him. That being the ability to move on from him at no cost in terms of dead money if he doesn't work out. I'm not sure he is going to be the highest paid WR with a new deal, he is 30 after all, but it is going to be costly in the terms of future guarantees.

Lets just assume for a second he is willing to do a 3 year 45 million dollar deal. If I am a team willing to five up those numbers the only way I do it is no signing bonus and a fully guaranteed year 1 salary of 15 million. that way you are off the hook if it doesn't work out. If you do a 15 million signing bonus you are still on the hook for 10 and 5 million in year 2 and year 3 respectively.

 

[OldSchool101]

move Davante to the #2 WR

I obviously know you were being sarcastic, but in all seriousness I believe that would happen by default if AB truly was committed to turning the corner. Wherever he goes (it won’t be GB) I hope he has a QB and a system that is similar to Ben or better that showcases his talent, because like Dennis Rodman or Mike Tyson or countless other controversial athletes? He’s still one of the best and amazing to watch.

I only toy with the idea of how good we’d be having him and Davante on opposite sides for debate. In that dream scenario, theres no doubt in my mind we would instantly be back among the best WR tandems in the league. We’d also have a deep bench again That in itself gets us in the playoffs. Fixing this Defense gets us the rest of the way.

I’ve been contemplating this and while my mind loves it, my heart sais “Theres a bigger picture to this debate than just acquired talent vs risk. There’s some things in life you just don’t compromise”. This has always been a team sport and the day our organization makes compromises like this is the day we lose our 100 year long-standing values and integrity.
Our organization literally started this sport and our organization has a responsibility to uphold its values. Even at the risk of not acquiring a generational talent.

We can still win the old fashion way. We can earn it.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

True or False:

1. Steelers want a first rounder for AB?
2. AB has called himself the best WR in the NFL?
3. AB has already said that he won't play unless he gets a new contract?
4. AB was frustrated that he wasn't getting enough balls his way?

Now tell me where that strawman is?

1. Reportedly False
2. He has been so I would assume he has said that
3. Wants guaranteed money, that could just be converting base salary into signing bonus; we'll have to wait a see so i'll say True
4. He was frustrated at Big Ben, as he has pointed out.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Sure it would have LOL. We'd have won nothing last year and be cutting guys to get under the cap this year and be out 1st and 2nd round draft picks LOL BRILLIANT

Yeah, Khalil Mack is worth that. Did you not watch the Bears last year? I'm assuming you didn't.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

See that’s the thing... We don’t even agree with the benefit of hindsight. Yes Mack played great... I don’t recall anyone thinking he wouldn’t. That does not mean making the trade would have been good for the Packers. One thing is certain though... this conversation about Brown would be moot because the Packers would have no money to sign anyone, nor would they have any first round draft picks this year or possibly next.

Yes, yes they would have money to sign someone. Unless you think Brown is going to cost about $35m against the cap this year?

 

[Mondio]

Yeah, Khalil Mack is worth that. Did you not watch the Bears last year? I'm assuming you didn't.

Did you watch the packers last year? I'm assuming you didn't LOL

You obviously didn't read the cap implications either. We'd have won nothing last year and be sitting with a worse Roster this year with few avenues to improve it. Congrats

 

[Curly Calhoun]

1. Reportedly False
2. He has been so I would assume he has said that
3. Wants guaranteed money, that could just be converting base salary into signing bonus; we'll have to wait a see so i'll say True
4. He was frustrated at Big Ben, as he has pointed out.

If you listen to AB talk for more than five minutes, it becomes very clear something is not right with this young man.....I hope he gets some help, makes peace with his demons, and never plays a down for the Green Bay Packers.


Antonio Brown nearly killed toddler by tossing furniture off balcony: lawsuit

https://nypost.com/2018/10/09/anton...oddler-tossing-furniture-off-balcony-lawsuit/

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Did you watch the packers last year? I'm assuming you didn't LOL

You obviously didn't read the cap implications either. We'd have won nothing last year and be sitting with a worse Roster this year with few avenues to improve it. Congrats

No, I know the cap implications. The Packers wouldn't have been able to keep Jimmy Graham or Nick Perry around. Shucks. I can see your point. Graham and Perry are certainly worth more to the team than Mack.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

If you listen to AB talk for more than five minutes, it becomes very clear something is not right with this young man.....I hope he gets some help, makes peace with his demons, and never plays a down for the Green Bay Packers.


Antonio Brown nearly killed toddler by tossing furniture off balcony: lawsuit

https://nypost.com/2018/10/09/anton...oddler-tossing-furniture-off-balcony-lawsuit/

As I've said, we'll get to see next year if he's worth what some team trades him for, and over the next three years we'll get to see if the draft selections the Packers make were a better investment. Beauty of sports.

 

[Mondio]

No, I know the cap implications. The Packers wouldn't have been able to keep Jimmy Graham or Nick Perry around. Shucks. I can see your point. Graham and Perry are certainly worth more to the team than Mack.

obviously you don't.

you're so shallow and shortsighted with your answers it explains why you arrive at such conclusions. First off, Graham was signed in March. Look at a calendar and see where that month falls. Mack was available for trade at the end of August. Glance at that calendar again and see why that is relevant. If you can't, I'll give you a hint. One already happened before the other was an option.

You're not seriously saying they should have cut Graham to make room and trade for Mack are you?

it's even worse with cutting perry last year. You realize you would NOT have cleared money last year right?

Don't pretend to understand cap implications when you very clearly do not.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Little risk compared to payoff. Yup. As I've pointed out, that "quitter" played hurt and was willing to play special teams for years to help the team.

That doesn't change the fact that Brown quit on his team with the playoffs on the line.

First, that $15m is not true. Brown would count $12.6m against the cap if the team traded for him after March 17, $14.1m if they traded for him before March 17.

The Steelers definitely don't want to wait until after March 17 to trade Brown as they would have to pay him a $2.5 million roster bonus while not planning to have him on the roster. A team acquiring him before that deadline will take a $15.125 million cap hit in 2019 for AB ($12.625 base salary plus the roster bonus).

Second, are we assuming that the team is signing no free agents in the offseason? Because if we are assuming they'll sign someone, then the actual cost is just the difference between who they sign and what Brown cost; and i can guarantee there are no free agents on offense who will help as much as Brown. Some seem to think that bad locker room guys automatically mean terrible players. Suh was a terrible locker room guy, he did really well. Moss and TO were bad locker room guys, they seemed to do well.

I definitely don't want the Packers to solely rely on the draft to improve the roster this offseason but I'm not in favor of adding Brown for reasons mentioned several times in this thread. While Suh, Moss and Owens have put up impressive stats how many Super Bowls combined have they won???

We keep getting back to the "RISK" and this is something Gute will feel good about or not after doing his due diligence and doing what OLD SCHOOL suggests which is picking up the phone and TALKING TO HIM.

Actually the Steelers haven't allowed Brown to talk to other teams.

I just happen to think that having two top-10 WRs is great for the team.

The receiving corps would definitely improve significantly by acquiring Brown, but once again, how much good did it do for the Steelers having two top 10 WRs last season???

I've said it before I'll say it again, it just baffles me how we've chastised Ted Thompson for sticking with his draft and develop, seeing how well that's done over the past few years, and now we're hesitant on taking chances whether it's trades for a bonafide player, or acquiring them through a different means. Which one is it?

I definitely want the Packers to be more active in free agency and to use trades to improve the roster. I'm opposed to acquire Brown though.

Please don't misunderstand, I agree that a healthy balance of the two are essential, but the greatest example I look at is Reggie White. That dude was a big FA and we took a risk on and we wounded up as SB champions.

What was the risk with signing Reggie White???

Yeah, Khalil Mack is worth that. Did you not watch the Bears last year? I'm assuming you didn't.

Mack wouldn't have been worth spending a ton of draft capital and cap space on him last season and the Packers would be in a very difficult situation to improve the roster this season.

 

[swhitset]

What was the risk with signing Reggie White???

I’m sure glad someone noticed this. Obviously there was none. Even if White had had a career ending injury before he ever played a down. He was signed a year before the Salary cap began so all the Packers would have lost would have been money that they really didn’t have to account for to anyone but the Packers board.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I’m sure glad someone noticed this. Obviously there was none. Even if White had had a career ending injury before he ever played a down. He was signed a year before the Salary cap began so all the Packers would have lost would have been money that they really didn’t have to account for to anyone but the Packers board.

Exactly, nor did the Packers have to give up a draft pick to obtain White, nor did White come with all the baggage, nor did......

I am probably guilty of it as well, but pointing out past examples of success (or failure) with other players, isn't necessarily a good/bad reason for or against making a move. Way too many other variables to consider to put much stock in what did or didn't work out in the past.

 

[Mondio]

I’m sure glad someone noticed this. Obviously there was none. Even if White had had a career ending injury before he ever played a down. He was signed a year before the Salary cap began so all the Packers would have lost would have been money that they really didn’t have to account for to anyone but the Packers board.

I think a lot of people don't realize the difference between salary cap and no salary cap. Cutting a guy and what it means to a cap, or doesn't depending on the contract and where they are in it. They also don't seem to see a difference between giving up nothing to sign someone over giving up1,2,3 other players to sign someone.

 

[Do7]

-_-

Considering when we signed him and how old he was at the time (around 31-32) based on how "old" that is according to some of you, hell yeah that's a risk. If you really want to get technical about signing any FA is a risk. If I'm not mistaken you, some of you expressed that same concern when we signed Peppers, at the time we did. B/c he was up there in age, and yet he played relatively well.

And considering how some of you guys are expressing concern with AB regarding his age 30 and yet he is arguably one of the best in his position if not the best, I was trying to make that point.

Aside from his character problems.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

-_-

Considering when we signed him and how old he was at the time (around 31-32) based on how "old" that is according to some of you, hell yeah that's a risk. If you really want to get technical about signing any FA is a risk. If I'm not mistaken you, some of you expressed that same concern when we signed Peppers, at the time we did. B/c he was up there in age.

And considering how you guys are expressing concern with AB regarding his age 30 and yet is arguably one of the best in his position.

Aside from his character problems.

Speaking only for myself, I would trade for AB in a heartbeat at his current age and under his current contract, if those were the only 2 variables that mattered. The factors against making that move and have been discussed over and over, have nothing to do with his age. Those factors are also the reason the Steelers are getting rid of a guy that is one of the best WR's in the game, a fan favorite and playing on a very favorable contract and probably doing so at a major cost to their organization in money and talent.

 

[Do7]

Speaking only for myself, I would trade for AB in a heartbeat at his current age and under his current contract, if those were the only 2 variables that mattered. The factors against making that move and have been discussed over and over, have nothing to do with his age. Those factors are also the reason the Steelers are getting rid of a guy that is one of the best WR's in the game, a fan favorite and playing on a very favorable contract and probably doing so at a major cost to their organization in money and talent.

I get the character, the salary, and whatnot I simply brought the age thing up b/c of the draft pick thing as I recall his age being one of the reasons why people wouldn't use any higher than a potential 3rd draft pick for him is all.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I get the character, the salary, and whatnot I simply brought the age thing up b/c of the draft pick thing as I recall his age being one of the reasons why people wouldn't use any higher than a potential 3rd draft pick for him is all.

Could be, but his age would be very low on my concern list.