Will we have a 2020 NFL Season?

[HardRightEdge]

I have not heard of any children being involved in any vaccine trials. I'd think thrice if my children were in this age group. Especially before next summer. I said early on somewhere that this is like chicken pox. Relatively harmless to children but dangerous to adults.

The the overwhelming percentage of parents of children with chickenpox were vacinated against it or contracted it and are immune from contracting it again.

This is not the case with parents of children with Covid-19. Are you aware that a child can contract this virus, show no symptons, bring it home, and pass it to his parents who can then pass it on to granny? Big difference.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I have a feeling that same courtesy doesn't apply to politicians.

"Courtesy"? What a strange concept in this context. In any case, it shouldn't be extended to a politician with no scientific background making medical prescriptions, like drinking bleach or taking a drug off-lable, contrary to the best available science.

Of course you can always dig up a "somebody says" with an advanced degree to support any theory, conspiracy or otherwise, if you dig deep enough, even if it has to be some crazy voodoo lady MD.

 

[Poppa San]

At what level of sodium hypochlorite in the water does it become bleach? It is added to municipal water supplies regularly and is also recommended to be used to decontaminate private wells.

The the overwhelming percentage of parents of children with chickenpox were vacinated against it or contracted it and are immune. This is not the case with parents of children with Covid-19. Are you aware that a child can contract this virus, show no symptons, bring it home, and pass it to his parents who can then pass it on to granny?

Kari Stefansson, CEO of the Icelandic company deCODE genetics in Reykjavík, studied the spread of COVID-19 in Iceland with Iceland’s Directorate of Health and the National University Hospital. His project has tested 36,500 people; as of this writing, Iceland has 1,801 cases and ten deaths. On a per-capita basis, Iceland ranks near the very top in testing.
In an interview with the Science Museum Group, Stefansson makes an extraordinary statement:

"Children under 10 are less likely to get infected than adults and if they get infected, they are less likely to get seriously ill. What is interesting is that even if children do get infected, they are less likely to transmit the disease to others than adults. We have not found a single instance of a child infecting parents."

https://www.nationalreview.com/corn...single-instance-of-a-child-infecting-parents/
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...vid-19-to-adults-report-indicates/ar-BB13psyK

A China/World Health Organization joint commision couldn’t find a single case of a child passing the virus to an adult.

 

[Poppa San]

At what level of sodium hypochlorite in the water does it become bleach? It is added to municipal water supplies regularly and is also recommended to be used to decontaminate private wells.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corn...single-instance-of-a-child-infecting-parents/
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...vid-19-to-adults-report-indicates/ar-BB13psyK

I will grant these are from before summer.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

At what level of sodium hypochlorite in the water does it become bleach? It is added to municipal water supplies regularly and is also recommended to be used to decontaminate private wells.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corn...single-instance-of-a-child-infecting-parents/
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...vid-19-to-adults-report-indicates/ar-BB13psyK

I don't think I read that correctly, did you just try to defend the suggestion of injecting bleach?

 

[Poppa San]

I don't think I read that correctly, did you just try to defend the suggestion of injecting bleach?

No one suggested injecting beach. Not even Trump.

"And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that, so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me. So, we’ll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute. That’s pretty powerful."

TL;DR It would be nice to be able to inject something like a disinfectant for the virus.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

No one suggested injecting beach. Not even Trump.TL;DR It would be nice to be able to inject something like a disinfectant for the virus.

No it wouldn't, that would kill ppl. Disinfectants aren't vaccines or medicines.

 

[HardRightEdge]

At what level of sodium hypochlorite in the water does it become bleach? It is added to municipal water supplies regularly and is also recommended to be used to decontaminate private wells.[/QUOTE]
You put bleach in a pool. How much can you accidently swallow without getting sick? If you're going to make an argument I'm not going to do your research for you. I'd like to know the parts per million recommended for a municipal water system, the point at which this toxic substance ceases to be toxic. While you're at it, go find the anti-vaxer wed sites that provide the recipe for bleach curing autism. Then let's compare. And where is your science that bleach cures autisim or Covid-19 to start with?

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/icelandic-study-we-have-not-found-a-single-instance-of-a-child-infecting-parents/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...vid-19-to-adults-report-indicates/ar-BB13psyK

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...vid-19-to-adults-report-indicates/ar-BB13psyK

That study from May as reported in your first link above provides a mixed message, in case you didn't notice, and is based on a scant 1800 total positive tests. Some evidence now suggests that the older the child the more like he can pass it on. Just a speculation on my part but that may be a function of a bigger body carrying a bigger viral load.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

No one suggested injecting beach. Not even Trump.TL;DR It would be nice to be able to inject something like a disinfectant for the virus.

So in summary, you're cool with people not wearing masks, not vaccinating, having large gatherings without masks despite having a wife in the "health profession" and ingesting/injecting bleach.

This makes me sad for humanity.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

 

[GreenNGold_81]

It's cool guys, the equivalent of 50 Boeing-737's are crashing each week but hey, here's some bleach and freedom.

/sarcasm.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Or more likely that at current rates around .08% of the state is infected at the moment.

That would be 80 infected out of 100,000, 1 out of 1,250. For perspective, that would be around 210 in all of Brown Co., WI to take one example. Do you have a source to back up that number?

Did you ever stop to think how it could be possible that half of the 600 workers in meat packing plant out in the middle of nowhere could suddenly contract this virus? Or how nearly half of the 500 campers and staff in Georgia, predominently children, could walk in looking healthy and walk out testing positive?

"Evidence suggests" this is a highly contgious disease. Consider yourself very lucky that no one you know has contracted the virus. No one I know has either. That's about as anecdotal as you can get.

In all your arguments you fail to consider what it would look like if it had been business as usual from the beginning. What if nobody wore a mask or socially distanced or any other measure from the beginning? As you evidently complain about the overreaction to this virus, you refuse to acknowledge that you (and I) wearing a mask while paying for gas or buying a carton of milk or distancing in a restaurant, while the clerk is wearing a mask or behind plexiglass, or the waiter stands back from the table wearing a mask, might actually have kept the numbers down. That would be oblivious to cause and affect.

When we've seen behavioral restrictions relaxed, hospitals fill up, medical workers are overtaxed. There's collateral damage with people with other diseases or injuries not getting the treatment they would otherwise. As we've seen, it doen't take that many "it is what it is" Covid-19 patients to push medical capacity to it's limits. Nothing we have seen so far anywhere, including New York City before it became the example for everywhere else, would be a pale comparison to what you would see if nobody did anything from the beginning in business as usual. And that is exactly what Sweden tried initially, going with herd immunity eventually in the natural course of things, and their rate of infection went ballistic, far exceeding anything we've seen in the US. It's a good thing not everyone followed the same path, the very one espoused by the Denier-in-Chief.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Consider this a public service announcement.

Out of curiosity, I found the following web reference:

https://www.epa.gov/ground-water-and-drinking-water/emergency-disinfection-drinking-water

For emergency disinfecting of drinking water, the EPA recommends 6 - 8 drops of household chlorine bleach bleach per gallon of water depending on the concentration of the active ingredient sodium hydrochlorite. Household bleach is typically sold in concentrations of 6.0% or 8.25% of that active ingredient.

So, if you're inclined to drink bleach as a cure for autism or Covid-19, cures for which there is no reliable evidence whatsoever, be sure to not exceed those concentrations.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Consider this a public service announcement.

Out of curiosity, I found the following web reference:

https://www.epa.gov/ground-water-and-drinking-water/emergency-disinfection-drinking-water

For emergency disinfecting of drinking water, the EPA recommends 6 - 8 drops of household chlorine bleach bleach per gallon of water depending on the concentration of the active ingredient sodium hydrochlorite. Household bleach is typically sold in concentrations of 6.0% or 8.25% of that active ingredient.

So, if you're inclined to drink bleach as a cure for autism or Covid-19, cures for which there is no reliable evidence whatsoever, be sure to not exceed those concentrations.

Can I use that to wash my eyeballs after reading some of the posts on here?

 

[HardRightEdge]

Can I use that to wash my eyeballs after reading some of the posts on here?

You can exercise your American freedoms to do anything you want to your yourself with bleach. Evidently people keep finding "novel" uses for the stuff, pun intended. I wouldn't try it myself, though. It might sting.

 

[HardRightEdge]

It would be nice to be able to inject something like a disinfectant for the virus.

It would be nice if just a few pigs had wings. It would be quite entertaining to see one fly. Not all of them though--they'd be escaping into the wild and the price of my BLTs would skyrocket.

 

[rmontro]

"Courtesy"? What a strange concept in this context. In any case, it shouldn't be extended to a politician with no scientific background making medical prescriptions, like drinking bleach or taking a drug off-lable, contrary to the best available science.

My point was that there were politicians on both sides of the aisle that misread what was going to happen with the coronavirus, especially early on.

 

[HardRightEdge]

My point was that there were politicians on both sides of the aisle that misread what was going to happen with the coronavirus, especially early on.

That's to be expected at the outset. Some, however, strive to learn as they go. Others are wilfully incorrigible to this very day.

 

[Poppa San]

No it wouldn't, that would kill ppl. Disinfectants aren't vaccines or medicines.

You missed the keyword LIKE. Borg nanoprobes would be nice. Oh, and the other thing mentioned -- light was it??

The Healight technology employs proprietary methods of administering intermittent ultraviolet (UV) A light via a novel endotracheal medical device. Pre-clinical findings indicate the technology’s significant impact on eradicating a wide range of viruses and bacteria, inclusive of coronavirus.

I guess Cedar-Sinai medical center is run by quacks.

And where is your science that bleach cures autisim or Covid-19 to start with?

I never made the claim. Just pointing out people drink diluted (really diluted) bleach all the time.

That would be 80 infected out of 100,000, 1 out of 1,250. For perspective, that would be around 210 in all of Brown Co., WI to take one example. Do you have a source to back up that number?

I should have used a calculator. per worldometers.info Wisconsin has 8,189 active cases in a population of 5,822,434 which yields about 1 in 711. or about .14%. In its entirety, 1.16% of Wisconsin citizens have had a confirmed infection.

And that is exactly what Sweden tried initially, going with herd immunity eventually in the natural course of things, and their rate of infection went ballistic, far exceeding anything we've seen in the US.

Have you seen their reported numbers lately? From the same site as before Sweden has had point 8 percent (.8%) infection cases. On par with or better than most states between DC and Massachusetts. Their deaths per million are better than any state that exceeds the US total average. Did you ever realize neither their 7 day new case average nor the death average ever exceeded Michigan and their Draconian lockdown queen that recently vetoed legislation that would have forced the state to STOP USING NURSING HOMES AS QUARANTINE SITES FOR ALL CITIZENS! Really. If you get Covid19 in Michigan and have no place to quarantine, the state will put you up IN A NURSING HOME!

 

[HardRightEdge]

Have you seen [Sweden's] numbers lately? From the same site as before Sweden has had point 8 percent (.8%) infection cases.

You've illustrated the problem perfectly.

Sweden intially went the business-as-usual route, treating Covid-19 like a flu, reckoning herd immunity would develop naturally and it would go away in due time. As a result it ripped through the population like wildfire.

By April, they had death rates hitting 80 to 115 per day over a couple of week in a population of 10 million. With a population 1/33 the size of the US, 100 Swedish deaths per day would equate to 3,300 in the US, worse than anything we've seen.

The Swedes learned. New York City learned. They went into near lockdown and brought the numbers down. And it is still not business as usual and won't be for a long time. They didn't persist in calling it a flu, they stopped thinking it would just go away, they didn't prescribe snake oil solutions, they didn't stick their heads in the sand.

After these early experiences, others learned from those experiences. Others did not in the face of overwhelming evidence, some to this day amoung our southern neighbors, who persisted in thinking, "We're not New York City," as if this was God visiting punishment on ***** and Gomorrah.

I should have used a calculator. per worldometers.info Wisconsin has 8,189 active cases in a population of 5,822,434 which yields about 1 in 711. or about .14%. In its entirety, 1.16% of Wisconsin citizens have had a confirmed infection.

That's more plausible. You should keep in mind those would be people confirmed positive. You've got a lot of folks walking around with it who have not been tested.

But if we go with your 0.14, when you think about your three gatherings with 600-700 people your odds of an infected person present at one of them were about 50/50. If 10 people walked out of there with the virus, you can project from there. The super spreader concept makes sense in the early stages of a contagion as you try to nip it in the bud through contact tracing. If 0.14% of 330,000.000 people are currently carrying it, 462,000 people, and you go back to business as usual you don't need a super spreader to see cases go parabolic.

Your perception is skewed by ignoring the cause and effect. You speak as though these declining numbers are a natural outgrowth of business as usual. Nothing can be further than the truth. If that had been the case, with hospitals overwhelmed, you'd go past the tipping point, people dying in the hallways or at home in the beds for lack of an ambulance. What would the death count be by now? 500,000? Easy. 1,000,000? Possibly. Maybe more. It's a good thing "it is what it is" and not what it could have been.

I don't know how to put this any other way: Your 600-700 people acting irresponsibility benefited from the conscientious efforts of others.

 

[Poppa San]

Your perception is skewed by ignoring the cause and effect. You speak as though these declining numbers are a natural outgrowth of business as usual.

That's the thing. No place has had or continued their surge or wave once the confirmed cases total 2% of the populace or more. Everyplace that has hit that level has crested at or before and declined after that point. IMO the undetected silently infected plus the confirmed cases plus those naturally immune, possibly from the T-cells that researches are reporting, create herd immunity there.
A lot of places have been basically fully open. Bars in Wisconsin since before Memorial Day. Our surge crested in July at about 1.% and was declining before the governors mask order went into effect, let alone had an effect.

And with this I'll stop diverting the thread. I'll mask up because I have to but I'll not change my activities or movements any other way. I do expect someone close to me to get it eventually, most likely over the winter. I'll continue to believe that for almost all of those under normal retirement age this disease is no worse than the flu or a bout with pneumonia.
ETA: because after 6 months of data collection, this is what the science tells me once I get past the media interpretations.

 

[HardRightEdge]

That's the thing. No place has had or continued their surge or wave once the confirmed cases total 2% of the populace or more.

I'll go ahead and beat a dead horse--that's because they learned something and did something about it.

Even now, in most places, and it should be all places, even those past the lockdown phase, you have to wear a mask indoors with social distancing required. I go into Walmart or Home Depot and everybody is wearing a mask. One can only believe these things don't matter if that's their confirmation bias.

I'll continue to believe that for almost all of those under normal retirement age this disease is no worse than the flu or a bout with pneumonia. ETA: because after 6 months of data collection, this is what the science tells me once I get past the media interpretations.

I think you're in a time warp because that's what 2 months worth of data said. This a vascular disease, not just lung disease. You do not have to be old to be vulnerable. Obesity alone pushes about half the population into the risk category. After the initial spike in my neck of the woods, Greater Buffalo, NY, more people under 40 were testing positive than over 40, and given that testing was in short supply at that point believe me when I say people were not getting tested just for yucks. And frankly, Covid-19 was never that bad here and then got a lot better fast under Cuomo's draconian measures.

But even if you were correct, which you are not, about 16% of the US population is 65 or over, or about 5.3 million Americans. If you choose to be lax in your behavior you should stay away from them. Of course if you're concerned about the Social Security and Medicare trust funds, or work for a long term care insurer, it might be in your interest to spread it around.

 

[mradtke66]

Of course if you're concerned about the Social Security and Medicare trust funds,

Brief aside: It is my understanding the trust fund is a temporary thing. With the boomers being a much larger population than the X-ers, Millenianals, and whatever we end up calling the Z-ers, we needed the trust fund to offset spends (SS payments) vs. income (payroll tax.)

As the boomers begin dying off, the population should rebalance and the trust fund is less necessary.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Brief aside: It is my understanding the trust fund is a temporary thing. With the boomers being a much larger population than the X-ers, Millenianals, and whatever we end up calling the Z-ers, we needed the trust fund to offset spends (SS payments) vs. income (payroll tax.)

As the boomers begin dying off, the population should rebalance and the trust fund is less necessary.

Be sure that those trust funds are not temporary things. They have been funded since forever by payroll taxes as ensconsed in law with benefits paid from these funds. For some time now they have been sinking funds with taxes not keeping up with benefit payments. The problem has been exacerbated in recent years with low interest rates; these funds are invested in special classes of US Treasuries which pay dirt.

Now, if those trust funds run down to zero, which will happen in the not too distant future if nothing is done (something like 2026 for Medicare, 2035 for SS), one of three things will happen: Payroll taxes will be increased, benefits will be cut or the trust funds will be supplemented from the from the Federal budget. Maybe some of all three. Something will be done before those dates but I'll lay odds there will not be supplements from the Federal general accounts.

Some might recall that the great tax cutter Ronald Reagan signed off on the biggest payroll tax increase in history to get the trust fund projections ship shape for the following few decades, one of about a half dozen tax increases of note during his tenure. It's going to be a lot harder this time with the federal deficit growing by a trillion every year thanks in part to the Trump tax cuts, multi-trillions this year thanks to Covid-19, and who knows how bad next year will be. Federal and state fiscal projections in general are nothing short of abysmal.

End of life care for Medicare recipients (the last 6 months) runs on average about $500,000. So if you can knock off some of the recipients (like me) relatively quickly there's money to be saved in addition to the end of their SS payments (or lower payments if there is a survivor's benefit). That's "cull the herd" thinking which of course no one (almost) would dare utter even if they like the idea.

 

[mradtke66]

Be sure that those trust funds are not temporary things. They have been funded since forever by payroll taxes as ensconsed in law with benefits paid from these funds.

Again, my overly simplified understanding is that payroll tax in should roughly equal benefits paid out. This worked fine when SS was first implemented. With the Boomers outnumbering us younger folk, that wouldn't work. At one time, I believe the expected ratio was 2 retirees to 1 worker.

Once the population evens out, the trust fund is no longer necessary. At least so goes the theory.

EDIT: There's also a relatively easy solution, should SS need more revenue. At some point, I think its around $130,000, additional salary is not subjected to those taxes. Remove the cap, boom, more money than SS knows what to do with.

Probably don't actually remove the cap, as the government sitting on a pile cash that they aren't spending isn't good for the economy. Also giving them a blank check isn't a good idea. A progressive system not unlike income tax might be better, but at that point, we're beyond what I feel like talking about on a football forum.

The wikipedia article matches my understanding of how SS and the Trust Fund operates. Not that it is necessarily reliable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Trust_Fund

 

[HardRightEdge]

Again, my overly simplified understanding is that payroll tax in should roughly equal benefits paid out. This worked fine when SS was first implemented. With the Boomers outnumbering us younger folk, that wouldn't work. At one time, I believe the expected ratio was 2 retirees to 1 worker.

Once the population evens out, the trust fund is no longer necessary. At least so goes the theory.

EDIT: There's also a relatively easy solution, should SS need more revenue. At some point, I think its around $130,000, additional salary is not subjected to those taxes. Remove the cap, boom, more money than SS knows what to do with.

Probably don't actually remove the cap, as the government sitting on a pile cash that they aren't spending isn't good for the economy. Also giving them a blank check isn't a good idea. A progressive system not unlike income tax might be better, but at that point, we're beyond what I feel like talking about on a football forum.

The wikipedia article matches my understanding of how SS and the Trust Fund operates. Not that it is necessarily reliable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Trust_Fund

We could go on forever with this. I'll just point out a few things.

First, when trust fund money is used to buy Treasuries that money is in fact used for other purposes contrary to your statement. You seem to have misread or didn't understand your Wikipedia link, to wit:

"Excess funds are used by the government for non-Social Security purposes, creating the obligations to the Social Security Administration and thus program recipients." Put simply, the Treasury takes money out of the trust funds and puts a chit in.

These monies are not lockboxed as Al Gore proposed, consquently the trust funds are bookkeeping mechanisms, a transparent way (sort of) to follow how well they are doing in paying for themselves. So there's no reason for those trust funds to go away unless the self-funding principles set down when the programs were established are abolished, paid for or supplmented from other taxes (or more likely deficits). At that point these programs become political footballs.

Second, monies will run out before the Baby Boomers stop taking out more than what goes in. For example, Medicare in on track right now for cutting Medicare Part A benefits by 10% by 2026, then more cuts will follow.

As for solutions, there are many to consider. None are politcally viable so long as the GOP holds the filibuster in the Senate with 41 seats, which I think we can expect for some indeterminent time. And if may digress, the grand Democratic plans under a Biden administration will die on the vine so long as the 41 seats have an "R" next to them. The way things go these days we'll approach crisis time when and the solution chosen will be among the worst compared to what might have been done sooner.

Third, if I was laying odds, one element of the solution will be benefit cuts for younger generations while the old folks who vote en mass will keep what they have.