Wide Receiver Options

[OldSchool101]

I could be wrong but I think every NFL contract has the stipulation in it that the team can cut a player. If it does then the teams are doing nothing wrong. If the players want 4 years to mean 4 years with no option for the team to cut them they had better be prepared to make a whole lot less money The players union could fight for guaranteed contracts, which is what you are asking for, in the next CBA but they will need to realize that the contracts will be a lot shorter and for a lot less money and for a lot less up front (no signing bonuses). I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to that.

Yes. Except I doubt a team will ever be forced to keep a player on their roster.

Fully Guaranteed covers the money, but Sunshine wants both. $ AND time.
I think that’s what he means?
He wants teams to fulfill time AND money is where he’s driving.

I just don’t think that’s fair for teams. It’s certainly not part of todays contracts.

More importantly it’s not the example he used whereas he claimed the Packers cheated ZaDarius.

 

[Voyageur]

People get hung up on what they don't see in contracts. The front money that's guaranteed to a player is given so they will relinquish the right to insist on completion of the number of years that the contract has been written. It gives management that right to let them go at any time during the course of the contract because they have been paid a huge severance, which had been agreed upon in advance.

So, when we look at Z, we see someone who was let go, but received that money in severance when he signed the contract. It also means that Z can go out and sign another contract, with another team, and still retain that money.

Personally, I think that's more than fair. It's a protection for players against injuries, and the inability to perform any longer.

 

[sschind]

Here's a full list of receivers whose names have at least been rumored to be on the block. They haven't all been connected to Green Bay, and they don't all make sense to me, but here they are in one place:

-D.K. Metcalf, Seattle, 24, 1/4M remaining

-Deebo Samuel, San Francisco, 26, 1/4 remaining

-A.J. Brown, Tennessee, 24, 1/4M remaining

-Terry McLaurin, Washington, 26, 1/2.8 remaining

-Tyler Lockett, Seattle, 29, 3/40 remaining

-Keenan Allen, L.A. (Chargers), 29, 3/50 remaining

Those are some good names and I'd take pretty much anyone of them as a replacement for Adams BUT. Each one of them will demand close to what Adams got in money and cost nearly what we got for him in draft picks. Since we were willing to pay Adams it seems like it could be a wash, probably even a bit in our favor, say 25 million and a 1st and a third which means we saved 3 million and traded a third rounder for a second and gained a younger player BUT. We have that money we didn't have to pay Adams (or at least we did until we spent it on keeping other players) and we have those draft picks. I'm kind of a bird in the hand person and while I wouldn't mind making that deal its hard to go through all that just to come out even. We gained 28 million and 2 draft picks. Its kind of hard for me to give that up. But I wouldn't be totally opposed to it for AJ Brown or maybe McLaurin. The biggest difference as I see it besides their ages is that we would have had to pay Adams this year while these guys will get paid next year. I know our cap isn't in great shape next year but it is better than this year I think.

Yes. Except I doubt a team will ever be forced to keep a player on their roster.

Fully Guaranteed covers the money, but Sunshine wants both. $ AND time.
I think that’s what he means?
He wants teams to fulfill time AND money is where he’s driving.

I just don’t think that’s fair for teams. It’s certainly not part of todays contracts.

More importantly it’s not the example he used whereas he claimed the Packers cheated ZaDarius.

That would be the tough part. Say a player signs a 4 year 50 million dollar deal and after two years he just doesn't fit in. Can the team cut him as long as he is paid the 50 million. Could he then go and make another 50 million with another team. Perhaps a new roster category could be made. Paid but not playing. The team says OK, we'll give you your 50 million but we own you for the next 2 years so we will pay you but you won't play so we don't have to count you on our roster. Lets see if sitting for two years will add to your value for another team. Or, in exchange for not having to pay you we will release you right now.

 

[Voyageur]

If you release him, he can negotiate a contract somewhere else. You can keep him on the 53 man roster, or put him on IR if he's injured, and keep him under contract if you wish. Those seem to be the only real options.

There are some exceptions, like releasing an injured player with a buyout agreement. Any how, that's what I see.

 

[OldSchool101]

Suddenly AJ Brown and Deebo Samuel are both in conflicts with their respective teams. I think that shows us another glimpse what this overpaying WR’s is doing. The massive top end contracts have created a Monster. I’d stay 10 feet away from anyone over $10M Annual right now. Use the draft.

Interesting thing I noticed about those guys. Neither were drafted during Round1. They were both 2nd Rounders, drafted at #35 and #51 overall.
We talk about how rare it is to get Rookie production, yet here’s another example just popping up where if you averaged both WR Rookie seasons, they averaged 926 yards each.
The LOW was 800+

It’s very possible to get great early production IF the Wideout is relied upon more. A big Part of our information is coming from OUR teams past selections at the position. While that is a natural way to perceive early production, I have not seen 1 comparable example season, not even close.

Show me examples of teams with comparable. A team that chose 2 top #59 WR, had an elite QB AND had no WR on the Roster with more then 500 yards of previous year. In every last example from outside teams, I’ve noticed none a comparables with the same common denominators.

This team, this year has one of the best opportunities to hit the WR Lotto $$$ for a young incoming Stud to make a name for himself. We just opened up 251 targets between 3 departing WR that we’re drafted by us. It wouldn’t shock me to see a Rookie break 1000 or at least flirt with it. Either that or 2-3 new guys put up 700 yards each.

 

[Spanky]

Here's a full list of receivers whose names have at least been rumored to be on the block. They haven't all been connected to Green Bay, and they don't all make sense to me, but here they are in one place:

-D.K. Metcalf, Seattle, 24, 1/4M remaining

-Deebo Samuel, San Francisco, 26, 1/4 remaining

-A.J. Brown, Tennessee, 24, 1/4M remaining

-Terry McLaurin, Washington, 26, 1/2.8 remaining

-Tyler Lockett, Seattle, 29, 3/40 remaining

-Keenan Allen, L.A. (Chargers), 29, 3/50 remaining

I don't think any of these guys get traded before the season starts.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Ohhh Are you mad about Davante attempting to breech his agreement??

Adams didn't agree to the franchise tag as he didn't sign it.

Because you just told me the contract isn't binding! The team can opt out whenever it wants so long as the guaranteed portion is paid. I'm not mad about anything other than the convoluted logic that says teams get to cut players whenever they want but players don't have any right to use leverage and re-negotiate a contract. Fans get really anti-labor when it comes to sports. The players aren't just stopping playing, they're holding out. They're not tearing up their contract, if they don't play then they don't get an accrued year on the contract but fans treat players like they have to be good little doggies and obey their masters at all times.

In my opinion the problem is that contracts should actually be reported differently as it would make much more sense to take a close look at the structure of a deal instead of the total numbers.

Just take a look at Aaron Jones for example. While the media listed the deal as a 4-year, $48 million agreement it was pretty obvious that when looking at the structure of it it was actually a 2-year, $20 million contract.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

According to the New York Daily News the Giants are actively shopping Kadarius Toney. While a team wanting to move on from a player only one year after spending a first rounder on him is definitely a red flag he was productive when on the field last season and most likely wouldn't take a first or second rounder to acquire. In addition he would count less than $1.3 million against the cap next season and only a bit more than $5.7 million over the next three.

 

[Voyageur]

How do all these rumors about the Packers looking at someone in free agency? Remember what I said about getting other teams to spend more than they want to get someone? This might give you a clue as to how it works.

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Andrew Brandt

@AndrewBrandt
Agents always asked me if they could float our name. I just said “If it gets another team to spend more, have at it!”

 

[OldSchool101]

Adams didn't agree to the franchise tag as he didn't sign it.

Adams screwed us by refusal to play after being tagged.
Not refusal to sign an extension offer

or are you implying the players now decide who and when tags are applied? Why the heck are they called FRANCHISE TAGS

Is there a rule change that Franchises need written player permission to apply a tag? If so could you give us 1 player example from the NFL

 

[tynimiller]

According to the New York Daily News the Giants are actively shopping Kadarius Toney. While a team wanting to move on from a player only one year after spending a first rounder on him is definitely a red flag he was productive when on the field last season and most likely wouldn't take a first or second rounder to acquire. In addition he would count less than $1.3 million against the cap next season and only a bit more than $5.7 million over the next three.

I’m all for calling on this one for sure as I am if Jags would move Laviska.

If Giants want a first absolutely not. A second for Toney and a Day 3 back I’d do depending how our organization liked Toney last year

 

[tynimiller]

Toney in just 10 games put up 420 yards.

Seems rumors say he has been known available for some time…which means they probably want a dumb amount back. Draft could provide some urgency and a better deal maybe

 

[Heyjoe4]

Toney in just 10 games put up 420 yards.

Seems rumors say he has been known available for some time…which means they probably want a dumb amount back. Draft could provide some urgency and a better deal maybe

There is some urgency here by the Giants, or at least it looks that way. I just wonder why they're shopping a guy who put up decent rookie numbers and has only been there one year, and a first rounder...... I don't know, this doesn't seem right. I'm sure the interested GMs know a lot more than we do. GB isn't in a great bargaining position either.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Adams screwed us by refusal to play after being tagged.
Not refusal to sign an extension offer

or are you implying the players now decide who and when tags are applied? Why the heck are they called FRANCHISE TAGS

Is there a rule change that Franchises need written player permission to apply a tag? If so could you give us 1 player example from the NFL

You've pointed out how weak the tag is if a guy wants to move on. If he signs, he plays for less than market (probably) and risks injury. If he sits out it costs him a fortune nd the team gets nothing for nothing.

I'm disappointed Adams wanted to leave. He wasn't as close to Rodgers as we were lead to believe. I don't blame him for wanting to play with his buddy Carr. He had his priorities and kept them close, as is his right. He was a damn great player for the Packers.

 

[OldSchool101]

You've pointed out how weak the tag is if a guy wants to move on. If he signs, he plays for less than market (probably) and risks injury. If he sits out it costs him a fortune nd the team gets nothing for nothing.

I'm disappointed Adams wanted to leave. He wasn't as close to Rodgers as we were lead to believe. I don't blame him for wanting to play with his buddy Carr. He had his priorities and kept them close, as is his right. He was a damn great player for the Packers.

Well said. And just so you know my position, I’m not in any way upset. In his attempt to screw with us he returned to us $29M yearly and #22, #53. Not because he’s nice and offered, but because the Packers could’ve potentially played ugly back, but decided to be professional and allow his demands. Yet in no way was his demand anything but a threat not to work for us anymore. Some posters can’t handle the truth. He breeched a league rule and I don’t think that’s something to be rewarded or defended. This spinning his refusal to play for us as “The Packers are Bullies!” or “Davante didn’t agree with our contract offer” We never even got to that point!!
That’s often the idea of using that tag, it’s to buy time to extend an offer. He played us and I’m glad he’s gone. Great athlete, but I won’t miss him.
All I could hear when he said his little “I Love you Goodbye Fans” bit was the Song
“50 ways to leave your Lover”

 

[JKramer64]

There is some urgency here by the Giants, or at least it looks that way. I just wonder why they're shopping a guy who put up decent rookie numbers and has only been there one year, and a first rounder...... I don't know, this doesn't seem right. I'm sure the interested GMs know a lot more than we do. GB isn't in a great bargaining position either.

Toney is on the block due to his attitude and erratic behavior. According to the article in the Daily News, the team questioned his commitment last year due to lack of playbook study, poor behavior in meetings and several injuries, including two positive covid tests. He was also ejected from a game against the Cowboys for throwing a punch. The Packers need to stay away from this guy.

 

[Spanky]

Toney is on the block due to his attitude and erratic behavior. According to the article in the Daily News, the team questioned his commitment last year due to lack of playbook study, poor behavior in meetings and several injuries, including two positive covid tests. He was also ejected from a game against the Cowboys for throwing a punch. The Packers need to stay away from this guy.

Hard pass on this fool. The Giants shopping him one year after taking him in the first round tells you all you need to know to stay away. These are the types of morons you sign for nothing as a street FA (if at all), not trade for.

 

[OldSchool101]

Hard pass on this fool. The Giants shopping him one year after taking him in the first round tells you all you need to know to stay away. These are the types of morons you sign for nothing as a street FA (if at all), not trade for.

Boy don’t I feel stupid. He was one of my favorite players (pickable for us) coming out of college Pre draft.
He was bouncing around from the 2nd round to around our selection late first Rd1.
Glad we got Stokes

 

[PikeBadger]

How do all these rumors about the Packers looking at someone in free agency? Remember what I said about getting other teams to spend more than they want to get someone? This might give you a clue as to how it works.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

Andrew Brandt
@AndrewBrandt
Agents always asked me if they could float our name. I just said “If it gets another team to spend more, have at it!”

It's a cut throat league for sure.

 

[PikeBadger]

Boy don’t I feel stupid. He was one of my favorite players (pickable for us) coming out of college Pre draft.
He was bouncing around from the 2nd round to around our selection late first Rd1.
Glad we got Stokes

You weren't alone. Toney was a very popular name being tossed around. I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole. Let him be someone else's problem.

 

[sschind]

Well said. And just so you know my position, I’m not in any way upset. In his attempt to screw with us he returned to us $29M yearly and #22, #53. Not because he’s nice and offered, but because the Packers could’ve potentially played ugly back, but decided to be professional and allow his demands. Yet in no way was his demand anything but a threat not to work for us anymore. Some posters can’t handle the truth. He breeched a league rule and I don’t think that’s something to be rewarded or defended. This spinning his refusal to play for us as “The Packers are Bullies!” or “Davante didn’t agree with our contract offer” We never even got to that point!!
That’s often the idea of using that tag, it’s to buy time to extend an offer. He played us and I’m glad he’s gone. Great athlete, but I won’t miss him.
All I could hear when he said his little “I Love you Goodbye Fans” bit was the Song
“50 ways to leave your Lover”

Fair warning this ended up being much longer than I had intended. I had more time than I expected to have since I didn't need to be doing any draft analysis or anything like that.

The franchise tag is essentially a 1 year contract offer. Adams did absolutely nothing wrong in not signing it. The Packers were within their rights as spelled out in the CBA to apply the tag and Adams was within his rights as spelled out by the CBA to not sign it. As far as I know there is nothing in the CBA that requires a player to sign the FT.

Adams signed his last contract with the Packers in 2017. That contract was for 4 years and expired after the 2021 season. Adams played those 4 years fulfilling every aspect of the contract and would have become a free agent at which point he would have been able to sign with any team he wanted.

BUT

The team stepped in and tried to prevent him from doing what he was granted the right to by the CBA. They applied the franchise tag, which they had the right to do. The FT was designed to allow teams a chance to hold on to players who were about to fulfill their part of a previously signed contract. In a perfect world the FT is said to be a means by which teams and players have more time to figure out a new long term deal. In reality the FT punishes a player who is about to fulfill everything he signed on to do in his previous contract. It prevents him from signing or even negotiating with another team even though he should be a free agent. It may prevent him from getting more money as the salary under the FT is often less than what the player could have gotten as a FA and it doesn't allow him to negotiate with other teams which he could do if he was a free agent. Its subjects him to another year of possible injury at that reduced salary and prevents him from possibly getting the security that a long term deal would likely offer. It forces him to stay another year with a team or people he may not like. Their only recourse, which is absolutely allowed by the CBA, is to refuse to sign it. Of course if they do that they are forced to sit out an entire year and make no money and, if captain is correct, they may be forced to go through it all again the following year. It's no wonder players hate the FT, it sucks for them and gives them no benefit. The NFLPA agree to it as a concession to the owners so the owners would give them free agency. Essentially a "you give us free agency and we will allow you to screw over 1 player per year if you want to.

Apparently Adams told the Packers back in February that he no longer wanted to play for them and that he wanted to go to the Raiders. The Packers had 2 options. Allow him to become a FA and leave thus gaining a likely 3rd round comp pick next year or apply the FT to allow them time to figure things out. They chose the latter which I don't blame them for doing. They knew Adams wanted out and they most likely knew where he wanted to go so the FT gave them time to work out something that benefited them but they absolutely knew or at least had a very strong idea that if they tagged him they would have trade him. Of course there was always the hope that they could have changed his mind. It sucks to lose a player of his caliber but this is what was agreed to by both sides. Nobody forced anybody to do anything and no one did anything wrong or dirty or underhanded or anything else that you may want to accuse them of to try to make them look like the bad guy.

So there you have my take on the matter. Both sides fulfilled the last contract that was signed and both sides did what was within their rights to do. Adams wanted to go to the Raiders and he is a Raider so he won. By applying the FT the Packers were able to get more than they would have by just letting him walk so they won. Win/Win.

 

[Mondio]

In this case, I'd say the team "won", the player "won" and the franchise tag and procedure pretty much worked out as perfectly as the teams and players had hoped when they agreed upon it. It gives teams some control over losing a bigtime player after investing time and money in developing that player and they can try and retain some of that in either a longer contract or trading.

A player "may" lose out on a longer contract, but also gains a very sizable 1 year contract, often times at least half of what the guaranteed money in a longer term contract would be, but likely though not always, less value long term. That cap hit without being able to spread it out or count on more years gives them power as well.

When 2 sides act like adults, it works. BOth sides were pretty respectful I think and it absolutely can be called a win for both. Not sure what the issue could be?

 

[Schultz]

Well said. And just so you know my position, I’m not in any way upset. In his attempt to screw with us he returned to us $29M yearly and #22, #53. Not because he’s nice and offered, but because the Packers could’ve potentially played ugly back, but decided to be professional and allow his demands. Yet in no way was his demand anything but a threat not to work for us anymore. Some posters can’t handle the truth. He breeched a league rule and I don’t think that’s something to be rewarded or defended. This spinning his refusal to play for us as “The Packers are Bullies!” or “Davante didn’t agree with our contract offer” We never even got to that point!!
That’s often the idea of using that tag, it’s to buy time to extend an offer. He played us and I’m glad he’s gone. Great athlete, but I won’t miss him.
All I could hear when he said his little “I Love you Goodbye Fans” bit was the Song
“50 ways to leave your Lover”

I will miss him very much.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Toney is on the block due to his attitude and erratic behavior. According to the article in the Daily News, the team questioned his commitment last year due to lack of playbook study, poor behavior in meetings and several injuries, including two positive covid tests. He was also ejected from a game against the Cowboys for throwing a punch. The Packers need to stay away from this guy.

Thanks for the update. Waaaaay too much trouble. That can ruin a good team. It's hard to tell with the Giants because they haven't been good in a long time. The Packers? No thanks, pass.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Well said. And just so you know my position, I’m not in any way upset. In his attempt to screw with us he returned to us $29M yearly and #22, #53. Not because he’s nice and offered, but because the Packers could’ve potentially played ugly back, but decided to be professional and allow his demands. Yet in no way was his demand anything but a threat not to work for us anymore. Some posters can’t handle the truth. He breeched a league rule and I don’t think that’s something to be rewarded or defended. This spinning his refusal to play for us as “The Packers are Bullies!” or “Davante didn’t agree with our contract offer” We never even got to that point!!
That’s often the idea of using that tag, it’s to buy time to extend an offer. He played us and I’m glad he’s gone. Great athlete, but I won’t miss him.
All I could hear when he said his little “I Love you Goodbye Fans” bit was the Song
“50 ways to leave your Lover”

Yeah unfortunately loyalty between an employer and an employee is a thing of the past. Each side has to watch out for its own interests. Employment is strictly transactional. That's sad really, because loyalty can't be bought or sold yet it has great value. It's just a thing of the past. And I don't know, maybe that's the way it has to be.

And that goes for fans too. I'm still upset that Adams left, and I shouldn't be. Cheer for the guys that are there to start the season wearing green and gold and hopefully win a championship. Beyond that? Forget it.