Who should start at DE opposite Daniels?

[mradtke66]

I thin the Packers paly alot of 2 down linemen, because we dont have a productive 3rd.....
Hyde's phenomenal play will make it harder to find the consistant 3rd down lineman to out produce him. But without Williams, and House, he might be needed other places now.... But im still convinced we have to play the nickel so much because we have better talent in the secondary, than the line. we are compensating for the weakness.

No. We play nickel so much because we face a lot of 3WR sets. Or 2WR 2TE sets with a serious receiving threat. In summary, a third offensive player that requires a cornerback to cover reliably.

It's a passing league. Passing centric offenses are on the rise. Thus, passing centric defenses are on the rise.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Right now, I presume it would be Guion or Jones based the opponent or scheme decisions.

Guion is a little oversized, but it could work out not unlike 2010 with Raji on the nose and Pickett at LDE. I don't know if he has the right skillset to play end, but there's no harm in trying him there. While all of our defensive linemen are kinds to tackles, there are nuances. In offensive linemen analog, maybe he's more of a guard who could survive at right tackle, but never make it at left tackle.

Jones...I want him to succeed. He's got the right body type. Long, lean (if 285 can be called "lean"), and strong. More pass rush than is typical for the position, but kind of sucks at the leverage game, ie, defending the run. It's possible that he just needs more time to adjust to this version of the 3-4--maybe he always had an OLB at UCLA helping with certain run fits.

A lot of doing the job is practice and understanding. Neal in 2013 was a lot bigger than Perry. But Perry set a better edge than Neal. Why? Neal had been an interior linemen his whole career. "Outside contain" might as have been "cover the tightend down the seam." It just wasn't something he had to do before. Perry has been a defensive end his whole career. He understands where to put his hands to keep his outside arm free and get the job done.

With Jones, it could be something "that simple." Get the technique down and he should grow into the role. He's managed to hurt his ankle twice now. Probably slowing down his development.

My favorite model for a DE, in either the 4-3 or the 3-4 is Cullen Jenkins or on todays roster Daniels. Inspired by Reggie White. Ideally he would have a little more length to knock down balls like Jolly did, and Peppers does. 300-315 or so. Strong as an ox. But the biggest thing is they have to have that burst, and motor. Be able to break off the block, take two quick steps, and get to the ball. Guys like this can not be blocked by a single O-lineman. or I should say rarely... Which forces the double team, and despite the double, these guys will still make plays in the trenches. Jones will get there soon IMO. But Guion is there already. Jones ceiling is much higher IMO.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

No. We play nickel so much because we face a lot of 3WR sets. Or 2WR 2TE sets with a serious receiving threat. In summary, a third offensive player that requires a cornerback to cover reliably.

It's a passing league. Passing centric offenses are on the rise. Thus, passing centric defenses are on the rise.

I cant believe we are not able to cover 4 recievers with 4LBs and 4 secondary....... When we drop down to 2 D-linemen, the Qb pressure suffers, and with time they pick us apart. So the nickel has to come in to help bend but not break. IMO

The extra secondary guy is supposed to come from the LB corps in a 3-3-5. That would make sense since our 2nd middle LB is an apparent weak point on our roster.

I am a D-lineman at heart. I just cant understand the logic of basicly not using them??? seems nuts to me.

 

[mradtke66]

I cant believe we are not able to cover 4 recievers with 4LBs and 4 secondary....... When we drop down to 2 D-linemen, the Qb pressure suffers, and with time they pick us apart. So the nickel has to come in to help bend but not break. IMO

See, that's not really how it works. The league more or less works 1 WR = 1 CB. Every scheme. The ones that don't do that are the ones that get torched by quarterbacks. A LB cannot turn and run with a receiver. A safety might, but now you've got single-high. Watch Rodgers, for example. Single high safety means someone is getting a bomb their way.

The extra secondary guy is supposed to come from the LB corps in a 3-3-5. That would make sense since our 2nd middle LB is an apparent weak point on our roster.

I am a D-lineman at heart. I just cant understand the logic of basicly not using them??? seems nuts to me.

You're still ignoring the details of how our roster and alignments work. Our OLBs are de facto defensive ends. Remember, if we got a 4-3 coach tomorrow, our OLBs (Peppers, Neal, Perry) would turn into full time defensive ends. Matthews would probably be a base-alignment strong OLB and nickel/dime defensive end.

In other words, the only change you would see in nickel is our outside rushers would have their hands in the dirt instead of standing up in a 2-point.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

See, that's not really how it works. The league more or less works 1 WR = 1 CB. Every scheme. The ones that don't do that are the ones that get torched by quarterbacks. A LB cannot turn and run with a receiver. A safety might, but now you've got single-high. Watch Rodgers, for example. Single high safety means someone is getting a bomb their way.



You're still ignoring the details of how our roster and alignments work. Our OLBs are de facto defensive ends. Remember, if we got a 4-3 coach tomorrow, our OLBs (Peppers, Neal, Perry) would turn into full time defensive ends. Matthews would probably be a base-alignment strong OLB and nickel/dime defensive end.

In other words, the only change you would see in nickel is our outside rushers would have their hands in the dirt instead of standing up in a 2-point.

That is definately the standard.....historically.... But thats not the only way 11 players can form a 3-4 defense. I would say that when there are 3 WRs, then the nickel comes in and the LB comes out. Not, consider the LB a rusher, and add another CB. Because I already considered at least 1 LB a rusher..... This sounds like a mentality of abandoning the beef! Which is our mentality and strategy, BECAUSE we havnt had the beef for a long time.....

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

I think we will see alot more 3 down linemen this year, as long as the big boys stay healthy.

 

[mradtke66]

That is definately the standard.....historically.... But thats not the only way 11 players can form a 3-4 defense. I would say that when there are 3 WRs, then the nickel comes in and the LB comes out. Not, consider the LB a rusher, and add another CB. Because I already considered at least 1 LB a rusher..... This sounds like a mentality of abandoning the beef! Which is our mentality and strategy, BECAUSE we havnt had the beef for a long time.....

Are you the second coming of wist34?

Most teams pull their nose tackle in nickel. This isn't surprising, since a good run stuffing NT that can pass rush is incredibly rare.

Regarding beef, we're not. You're still thinking of our OLBs like 4-3 OLBs. This isn't the case. Knock it off. We have stand up defensive ends. Our nickel front is the same approximate size as a 4-2 nickel front.

It is common for 4-3 teams to slide their bigger end down to tackle and bring in pass rushing specialist for end in nickel. We did this at the end of the KGB era. Hell, I think Matthews is bigger than KGB--what was he, 245 pounds? The Broncos would pull their NT and move Von Doom from SOLB to rush end. Same concept.

 

[TJV]

When we drop down to 2 D-linemen, the Qb pressure suffers, and with time they pick us apart.

You continue to misunderstand. Tells us which of the 3 DL in the base coming off the field caused the QB pressure to suffer. IOW, which great pass rushing DL was missing in the 2-4-5?

 

[HardRightEdge]

You continue to misunderstand. Tells us which of the 3 DL in the base coming off the field caused the QB pressure to suffer. IOW, which great pass rushing DL was missing in the 2-4-5?

He's going to tell you Capers plays base only 30% of the time because of a talent deficit.

All we have to do is get Suh-All Pro NT-Watt on the front line and we can play base D all day.

Fire Thompson.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Lets not get nasty again guys. Lets agree that I want the beef. And you all would prefer the 2 down linemen and a OLB, who is now a stand up DE magically.....

Point is, I want the play on words to lean towards more beef. You all think it should be spent on another CB.

I think you guys need to get a grip.

 

[HardRightEdge]

You all think it should be spent on another CB.

I think you guys need to get a grip.

Who's getting nasty?

Not all of us think "it" should be spent on a CB, assuming "it" is the 1st. round pick.

Who don't you tell us specifically who "it" should be in this draft in your opinion? Name names please.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

He's going to tell you Capers plays base only 30% of the time because of a talent deficit.

All we have to do is get Suh-All Pro NT-Watt on the front line and we can play base D all day.

Fire Thompson.

the endless sarcasm is childish....... And yea. Add a Suh opposite Daniels, and Raji back to 2010 form. Yes. 3 down linemen every play. 1 of the LBs blitz. and PRESSURE THE DANG QB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Who's getting nasty?

Not all of us think "it" should be spent on a CB, assuming "it" is the 1st. round pick.

Who don't you tell us specifically who "it" should be in this draft in your opinion? Name names please.

"it" is the roster position that takes the place of the NT in the 3-4 Nickel

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

Shelton is what I want. Dominant big boy that can still move. He wont chase down a RB from behind like Gilbert Brown But he could. LOL
Plug in Shelton in place of Jones. Give Raji two good DE's along with Mathews/Peppers. And watch Raji explode. It will cause a ripple effect through the entire defense...
There are some giants through out this draft. Shelton is ready to dominate though IMO.

 

[TJV]

And you all would prefer the 2 down linemen and a OLB, who is now a stand up DE magically...

No magic. Two down linemen, two OLBs looks kinda like a four man front.

Lets not get nasty again guys. …
I think you guys need to get a grip.

 

[Pack-12]

Lets not get nasty again guys. Lets agree that I want the beef. And you all would prefer the 2 down linemen and a OLB, who is now a stand up DE magically.....

Point is, I want the play on words to lean towards more beef. You all think it should be spent on another CB.

I think you guys need to get a grip.

That isn't magic it's reality. Peppers didn't make some magic transition last year he had pretty much the same responsibilities that he's ever had. Also being in base formation doesn't mean they are going to rush 5 guys every time there's still usually going to be a regular 4 man rush so basically you are taking away either Matthews or Peppers in favor of a DL to get after the QB hence no huge change in pass rush but now you are needing a LB or S to cover the receiver instead of a CB.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

That isn't magic it's reality. Peppers didn't make some magic transition last year he had pretty much the same responsibilities that he's ever had. Also being in base formation doesn't mean they are going to rush 5 guys every time there's still usually going to be a regular 4 man rush so basically you are taking away either Matthews or Peppers in favor of a DL to get after the QB hence no huge change in pass rush but now you are needing a LB or S to cover the receiver instead of a CB.

peppers has been playing good in coverage too if you didnt notice. That wingspan has actually become a big play threat! And Mathews playing ILB more and blitzing from all over. He played safety in college before OLB and DE. The guy is just great, and I love him being face to face with the QB and RB. He's violent, and i love it....

Anyways........Consider please, for a second. For the sake of open mindedness. Daniels, motivated Raji, And all pro like Suh up front. Peppers rushing from the side, and Mathews in the middle doing what he does.....Intimidating....
Then bench Barrington, or Perry and bring in Hyde for nickel duties... That will be an explosive, aggressive, and dominating defense.

Ok im done butting my head against the wall. I respect all your conservative points of view. And I've said my part. Writings on the wall.

 

[HardRightEdge]

im done butting my head against the wall.

That explains a few things. Was it a concussion, do you think?

So now you want Shelton. Explain how you're going to get him.

 

[TJV]

Ok im done butting my head against the wall facts and logic. I respect all your conservative realistic points of view. And I've said my part. My unrealistic (w)ritings on the wall.

There. Fixed it for you.

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

That explains a few things. Was it a concussion, do you think?

So now you want Shelton. Explain how you're going to get him.

You guys asked what draft pick I thought would do what I want.... He's ranked 16, on ESPN with 2 D-linemen ahead of him and Brown at 17......... Not saying its a good idea. But it is possible, should he slip a bit. Regardless. You are nit picking again, and Im done with the 8th grade activity.

 

[HardRightEdge]

You guys asked what draft pick I thought would do what I want.... He's ranked 16, on ESPN with 2 D-linemen ahead of him and Brown at 17......... Not saying its a good idea. But it is possible, should he slip a bit. Regardless. You are nit picking again, and Im done with the 8th grade activity.

It wasn't "you guys", like we're some kind of Skull and Bones secret society. I asked the question. Feel free to respond directly.

Sheldon is generally regarded to be around #15 give or take. I would not be surprised if he goes a bit higher. He looks like a man among boys in his tape. The mistakes he made in the Senior Bowl were overrunning plays, the kind of problem you'd like to have in a 340 lb. man

To move up to #15 the Packers would need to give up their 1st., 2nd. and 3rd. round picks, thereby surrendering the opportunity to get a decent CB or ILB or both.

Even if he dropped to #20, which won't happen unless he gets arrested for something in the next 6 days, would you be willing to give up the Packers 1st. and 2nd. pick to move up 10 slots? Or 3rd. rounders in 2015 and 2016 in place of the 2nd. rounder?

That's what it would take. There are significant opportunity costs is such moves.

 

[HardRightEdge]

In case anybody was wondering, check out Suh's cap numbers from 2016 on:

http://overthecap.com/player/ndamukong-suh/1816/

Then check out the cap savings in 2018 if he's released. This screams 3 year deal followed by a renegotiation, if things work out. It boils down to $60 mil under the guarantee for 3 years of work followed by "we'll see".

 

[GreenBaySlacker]

It wasn't "you guys", like we're some kind of Skull and Bones secret society. I asked the question. Feel free to respond directly.

Sheldon is generally regarded to be around #15 give or take. I would not be surprised if he goes a bit higher. He looks like a man among boys in his tape. The mistakes he made in the Senior Bowl were overrunning plays, the kind of problem you'd like to have in a 340 lb. man

To move up to #15 the Packers would need to give up their 1st., 2nd. and 3rd. round picks, thereby surrendering the opportunity to get a decent CB or ILB or both.

Even if he dropped to #20, which won't happen unless he gets arrested for something in the next 6 days, would you be willing to give up the Packers 1st. and 2nd. pick to move up 10 slots? Or 3rd. rounders in 2015 and 2016 in place of the 2nd. rounder?

That's what it would take. There are significant opportunity costs is such moves.

The problem is....... When you consistantly pick in the 30's. You never get the obvious difference makers. Im curious, if a player could be figured in??? We have a great 1st round pick in Perry, who would be very valuable to a 4-3 team. And could be replaced with Neal, Elliot, Mulumba if he recovers good from the knee. Without much of a drop off. Or could we trade Datone Jones, our starter, for a guy who would take his starting job? Basicly instead of morgaging next years 1st round pick. use last years 1st round pick..... Doesnt hurt as bad at least. and gets the job done.... I would prefer to let Perry go to a 4-3 than lose our pass rushing DE...

 

[HardRightEdge]

The problem is....... When you consistantly pick in the 30's. You never get the obvious difference makers. Im curious, if a player could be figured in??? We have a great 1st round pick in Perry, who would be very valuable to a 4-3 team. And could be replaced with Neal, Elliot, Mulumba if he recovers good from the knee. Without much of a drop off. Or could we trade Datone Jones, our starter, for a guy who would take his starting job? Basicly instead of morgaging next years 1st round pick. use last years 1st round pick..... Doesnt hurt as bad at least. and gets the job done.... I would prefer to let Perry go to a 4-3 than lose our pass rushing DE...

Perry was a terrible first round pick. His position coach said, going into last season, "he's given us zero". And he did not do any better in 2015. He has little or no trade value. Datone Jones is not far behind in that department; he has the sole advantage of having played only two years. The first 4 games of 2015 are fish-or-cut-bait time for Jones; I fear he lacks sufficient aggression, something you cannot teach.

Among D-Lineman, I have NT Eddie Goldman as a somewhat realistic possibility #30, though NT is not high on the needs list for this coming season. The only reason I even have him on the list is because Raji and Guion are on one year deals. I tend to view need over a two season span, particularly at this juncture with a good number of core players entering free agency after 2016.

 

[HardRightEdge]

"it" is the roster position that takes the place of the NT in the 3-4 Nickel

That makes no sense at all.