This is a big difference maker for the defense.

SoonerPack

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Question TT all you want but I for one would take our roster top to bottom when compared to almost any other in the league. He is in no way perfect but he HAS put together a pretty stout group of players that will contend for championships for many years to come. That has to count for something.
 

Carl

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Your question and overall premise is a strawman.

That said, while I am always focused on improving the roster I place most of the blame for our problems over the past 4 years on Dom Capers . TT shares a lot of blame for the defensive problems too, especially with that 2011 draft that yielded only Devon House, and he really never contributed much, mostly due to injury, but still the defense was in obvious need of infusion, and TT completely blew it.

I tend to give most of the players a pass b/c of Capers penchant for shooting himself in the foot, and his tendency to go soft at critical moments. I don't trust Capers, and never have. I was quite familiar with his career and tendencies when we hired him, and warned everyone from the start that he's a great x's and o's guy, but he can't be trusted.

His playing 2-4 as his base thru most 2011-2013 got us run over - it was demoralizing to watch.

Capers is our biggest problem - with a better DC I think we would have won the SB last year for sure, and probably won at least one other between 2011-2013.

No it's not a straw man.

If we are wasting Rodgers' time due to TT not using free agency to patch holes, then you should be able to point out how those holes have costs us games.

Otherwise, it's just a theory with nothing to back it up.
 

Carl

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Your question and overall premise is a strawman.

That said, while I am always focused on improving the roster I place most of the blame for our problems over the past 4 years on Dom Capers . TT shares a lot of blame for the defensive problems too, especially with that 2011 draft that yielded only Devon House, and he really never contributed much, mostly due to injury, but still the defense was in obvious need of infusion, and TT completely blew it.

I tend to give most of the players a pass b/c of Capers penchant for shooting himself in the foot, and his tendency to go soft at critical moments. I don't trust Capers, and never have. I was quite familiar with his career and tendencies when we hired him, and warned everyone from the start that he's a great x's and o's guy, but he can't be trusted.

His playing 2-4 as his base thru most 2011-2013 got us run over - it was demoralizing to watch.

Capers is our biggest problem - with a better DC I think we would have won the SB last year for sure, and probably won at least one other between 2011-2013.

In 2013, how did Capers cost us when an injury depleted defense played well? On the final drive, he must have told Hyde to drop a pick and Bush to screw up the blitz...

How did Capers cost us the game last season? Compared to the first 56 minutes, what play calling differences did he make in the last minutes that cost us the game?
 
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No it's not a straw man.

If we are wasting Rodgers' time due to TT not using free agency to patch holes, then you should be able to point out how those holes have costs us games.

Otherwise, it's just a theory with nothing to back it up.

Thompson didn't address the hole that was created by Cullen Jenkins leaving in free agency after the Packers won the Super Bowl. It took him nearly three years to make up for the loss of Nick Collins early in the 2011 season and he most likely stilm hasn't addressed the ILB position adequately.

All of these things factored into the Packers' playoff losses over the last four years.
 
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Question TT all you want but I for one would take our roster top to bottom when compared to almost any other in the league. He is in no way perfect but he HAS put together a pretty stout group of players that will contend for championships for many years to come. That has to count for something.

Agreed, Bucky Brooks compiled a list of the top 10 NFL rosters without taking QBs into consideration with the Packers ranking 8th. In combination with having the best QB in the league the Packers have as good of a chance as any other team to win the Super Bowl next season.
 

Carl

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Thompson didn't address the hole that was created by Cullen Jenkins leaving in free agency after the Packers won the Super Bowl. It took him nearly three years to make up for the loss of Nick Collins early in the 2011 season and he most likely stilm hasn't addressed the ILB position adequately.

All of these things factored into the Packers' playoff losses over the last four years.

Looking at the specific losses like I did in a post above, it's hard to attribute specific positions to them. May have been a factor, but other issues in the games had much more impact.

Besides every team in the league has a weakness. Without comparing them to the rest of the league and seeing if they are worse or more plentiful, it doesn't make sense to blame TT for simply having weaknesses.
 
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Looking at the specific losses like I did above, it's hard to attribute specific positions to them.

Besides every team in the league has a weakness. Without comparing them to the rest of the league and seeing if they are worse or more plentiful, it doesn't make sense to blame TT for simply having weaknesses.

Well, it's rare that a single player is to blame for a loss. The overall talent on defense hasn't been great since 2010 though and it contributed to playoff losses over the last four years with the defense giving up an average of 33.3 points during those games.

Since winning the Super Bowl the defense has finished 19th, 11th, 24th and 14th in points allowed while leading the league twice in scoring and finished 5th and 8th during the other seasons.

I think it's pretty obvios the defense has been the Packers weak link over that period and Thompson deserves some blame for not selectively addressing some obvious weaknesses in free agency and mostly botching the 2011 and '12 drafts.
 

JBlood

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Thompson deserves some blame for not selectively addressing some obvious weaknesses in free agency and mostly botching the 2011 and '12 drafts.
Yup, it's fair to say that as a GM, you're only as good as your last 5 drafts; even more so if you don't participate in the veterans' free agent pool.
 
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Yup, it's fair to say that as a GM, you're only as good as your last 5 drafts; even more so if you don't participate in the veterans' free agent pool.

After missing out on most of the draft picks in 2011 and '12 Thompson selected several impact players in 2013 and '14. I'm convinced that losing a ton of front office talent in John Schneider, Reggie McKenzie and John Dorsey had something to do with the subpar drafts in those years.

Overall I think we should judge Thompson's work based on his entire tenure, which is pretty impressive IMO. The only thing I would really like him to do is use free agency or trades more often to selectively upgrade position of needs.
 
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In respect to several prolific losses in recent playoff years, I am not confused about the human frustration it caused us die hard Packer fans. However, I am a firm believer in overcoming adversity of the past and the lessons learned along the way, they make us wiser.. In football as in life we can't drive using the rear view mirror. However, What I see in that mirror during the fleeting whisks of recent years' retroflections are Packer squads that were placed in phenomenal positions of opportunity. I praise TT for being a key component of that success and I still 100% believe his best work is ahead of him.
I can't help but think that these guys tasted a domination of an extremely strong team in Seattle, all with an injured QB with limited play calling. I believe we can be better than last year. I challenge the D to be top 5, and after the "elephant role" adjustments and seasoning of the core D players in 2014, I think we are poised to achieve this.
 

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I'll make the point again: There's a difference between not addressing problems and solving them. For example, Thompson had drafted Mike Neal in the 2010 draft, IMO in anticipation of Cullen Jenkins perhaps departing the next season. That obviously didn't work out, but it wasn't because Thompson didn't address it.

Look at the 2012 draft. That obviously was a draft to address the problems on D: That the first 6 selections played defense wasn't a coincidence. Two of those first 6 players were very good picks in Hayward and Daniels. Perry has been very disappointing and Worthy, McMillian and Manning contributed nothing, or close to nothing. Thompson’s philosophy is obviously very dependent upon the draft – that’s by far his number one way to improve the team – and he picked two DL, two LBs, and two DBs to restock the D. If you accept Thompson’s philosophy and were rightly concerned about the defense at the time, you had to be pleased with the way Thompson addressed the problems on D, right? In hindsight it would have been better if Thompson hadn’t been so focused on the D in that draft.

But of course the draft isn’t the only thing available to build a roster and some of us would like Thompson to use UFA more. But a greater dependence on UFA, even second tier UFAs comes with pluses and minuses. The zero sum nature of building an NFL roster means money, cap space and roster spots spend on UFAs aren’t available for the developing players on the roster (as part of the draft and develop philosophy). And Thompson has made the point that UFAs may bring bad habits and may not mesh with the current roster. I would be more willing to make that trade-off, I’m just making the point that it’s not a cure-all and it does come with negatives. Overall I think captainWIMM has it right: Thompson’s body of work in Green Bay has been pretty impressive.
 
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wist43

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No it's not a straw man.

If we are wasting Rodgers' time due to TT not using free agency to patch holes, then you should be able to point out how those holes have costs us games.

Otherwise, it's just a theory with nothing to back it up.

I guess Packer nation endlessly complaining about Hawk drag tackling and not filling holes, slow to react, slow in coverage; Jones a perpetual mess in the middle...

All the missed tackles and blown coverages from the safety position...

I guess all of that complaining over the past few years either never happened or was completely unjustified??

You seem to have a selectively short memory ;)
 

wist43

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In 2013, how did Capers cost us when an injury depleted defense played well? On the final drive, he must have told Hyde to drop a pick and Bush to screw up the blitz...

How did Capers cost us the game last season? Compared to the first 56 minutes, what play calling differences did he make in the last minutes that cost us the game?

The thread started unraveling when he had Seattle in 3rd and 20 something, and he rushed 3 letting Wilson cook an omelet in the pocket; and then the coverage wasn't designed to cover receivers, but rather a patch of turf - hence, Wilson had all day to lob a rainbow to a receiver that was completely uncovered.

Vintage Capers.

Then we gave up how many thousands of yds and pts in the last few minutes of that game?? If it isn't the players fault, which you don't seem to think it is; and it isn't Capers fault, which you don't seem to think it is...

Then whose bloody fault is it??
 

Carl

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I guess Packer nation endlessly complaining about Hawk drag tackling and not filling holes, slow to react, slow in coverage; Jones a perpetual mess in the middle...

All the missed tackles and blown coverages from the safety position...

I guess all of that complaining over the past few years either never happened or was completely unjustified??

You seem to have a selectively short memory ;)

The thread started unraveling when he had Seattle in 3rd and 20 something, and he rushed 3 letting Wilson cook an omelet in the pocket; and then the coverage wasn't designed to cover receivers, but rather a patch of turf - hence, Wilson had all day to lob a rainbow to a receiver that was completely uncovered.

Vintage Capers.

Then we gave up how many thousands of yds and pts in the last few minutes of that game?? If it isn't the players fault, which you don't seem to think it is; and it isn't Capers fault, which you don't seem to think it is...

Then whose bloody fault is it??

I never said we didn't have holes. We all know they have had some. Every team has them.

Since you said not patching in FA had led to us losing, I was asking you to correlate those specific holes to the playoff loses considering we have had many other issues during those games

I see you're not able to argue against Capers being at fault in 2013. Either that or you're just choosing to ignore it.

Regarding the Seattle game, when a team shuts out another for 56 minutes and gets 4 turnovers, then all of a sudden plays terribly, either Capers instantly forget how to coach or the players made a lot of mistakes. I highly doubt Capers simply forget how for the final four minutes. Haha, Hayward, Tramon, and Barrington all didn't do their jobs in coverage on four separate big plays. The entire right side of the defense was dominated on Lynch's TD run. The players bit on a fake on Wilson's TD run. That's a lot of errors made by players.

It's easy to find player mistakes on big plays late in the game. You've only listed one bad play call by Capers and then put the blame all on him for the entire unraveling. I'll agree that call could have been better. No play, by the way, is designed to let a WR be wide open that far down field though. A player also messed up to allow that.

I'll ask again, what play calling differences did he make in the final minutes compared to the first 56 minutes that led to the defensive collapse?
 

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According to the nfl website, in the 2014 regular season the Lions finished third in points surrendered (17.6), the Vikings 11th (21.4), the Packers 13th (21.8), and the bears finished 31st (27.6). (Unfortunately) A new coaching staff, a new defensive scheme, and infusion of new players seems to be just what the doctor ordered for the Bears. But if the rest of the NFC Central stays fairly consistent on D – even if the Lions take a step back - that would be a huge jump for the Bears. They may be setting themselves up to be a greatly improved D over the next few seasons, but with the switch to the new scheme I don’t see it happening this season.
 

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No, in no way do I compare Barrington´s performance last year to Jennings or McMillian. I think Barrington is an OK starter but I wouldn´t mind an upgrade over him. You´re right about the fact that continuing to play Matthews inside results in a different situation than at safety in 2013.
You seem to assume that Barrington has topped out and that he will always be at the level of his final 2014 game. I have no reason to believe he won't be a better player this year than he was last year. I expect steady improvement in his play over the next 3-4 seasons.
 
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You seem to assume that Barrington has topped out and that he will always be at the level of his final 2014 game. I have no reason to believe he won't be a better player this year than he was last year. I expect steady improvement in his play over the next 3-4 seasons.

It's possible Barrington will steadily improve over the next few seasons but there's no guaarantee. It didn't work out that way with Jennings and McMillian at safety either.
 

Vrill

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As long as our defense is ranked in that 13-17 area (middle of the pack), we'll be fine. Because with our offense, we'll score enough points to win probably 90% of the time.
 

wist43

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I never said we didn't have holes. We all know they have had some. Every team has them.

Since you said not patching in FA had led to us losing, I was asking you to correlate those specific holes to the playoff loses considering we have had many other issues during those games

I see you're not able to argue against Capers being at fault in 2013. Either that or you're just choosing to ignore it.

Regarding the Seattle game, when a team shuts out another for 56 minutes and gets 4 turnovers, then all of a sudden plays terribly, either Capers instantly forget how to coach or the players made a lot of mistakes. I highly doubt Capers simply forget how for the final four minutes. Haha, Hayward, Tramon, and Barrington all didn't do their jobs in coverage on four separate big plays. The entire right side of the defense was dominated on Lynch's TD run. The players bit on a fake on Wilson's TD run. That's a lot of errors made by players.

It's easy to find player mistakes on big plays late in the game. You've only listed one bad play call by Capers and then put the blame all on him for the entire unraveling. I'll agree that call could have been better. No play, by the way, is designed to let a WR be wide open that far down field though. A player also messed up to allow that.

I'll ask again, what play calling differences did he make in the final minutes compared to the first 56 minutes that led to the defensive collapse?

It seems you've just given a laundry list of reasons why Capers is at fault for the Seattle collapse. So you answered your own question.
 

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It seems you've just given a laundry list of reasons why Capers is at fault for the Seattle collapse. So you answered your own question.

The reasons I gave were?

I didn't expect you to be able to give other bad calls or how the play calling changed late.

I listed mistakes the players made. Capers must have told them to mess up...
 

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According to the nfl website, in the 2014 regular season the Lions finished third in points surrendered (17.6), the Vikings 11th (21.4), the Packers 13th (21.8), and the bears finished 31st (27.6). (Unfortunately) A new coaching staff, a new defensive scheme, and infusion of new players seems to be just what the doctor ordered for the Bears. But if the rest of the NFC Central stays fairly consistent on D – even if the Lions take a step back - that would be a huge jump for the Bears. They may be setting themselves up to be a greatly improved D over the next few seasons, but with the switch to the new scheme I don’t see it happening this season.
Vikings went from 31st in 2013 to 11 in 2014. No reason the Bears can't do it. It might be tougher if they are changing to a 3-4, but you never know.
 
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As long as our defense is ranked in that 13-17 area (middle of the pack), we'll be fine. Because with our offense, we'll score enough points to win probably 90% of the time.

The number is a bit exaggerated as the Packers have won close to 80% of their regular season games over the last four seasons. While it's mostly true that a defense ranked in the middle of the pack is good enough to win in the regulsr season it gets way tougher in the playoffs.
 

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