The pre-season, overall philosophy and cockiness

[HardRightEdge]

I don't think the coach gives them many choices and Rodgers (the perfectionist) likes that. Hard Edge, yes, when they get to the line of scrimmage the coach wants the QB and the receiver to know what spot they are going to. But to be able to get open the receiver needs to make decisions during the play. And the QB sometimes needs to wait for that. That is not running "willy nilly." That is adjusting to the way the DB is playing. And timing patterns have their place...but should be used sparingly.

So, what did you say that was different from my post? You seem to suggest in quoting my "willy nilly" comment that I characterized it as such, when in fact it was the opposite.

 

[gopkrs]

Well Hare Edge, it seems to me that our differences lies in when the adjustments are really made. You have most or all of the adjustments occurring b4 the play has started. And I think that is the way we do it. Problem is, it has not been working for about a year now. All the defenses are also figuring out where we are going most of the time. I want the receivers to be able to really adjust and I want Rodgers to wait if he has to. How many times have you seen one of our receivers go to a place and then just stop because he is covered and does not know what else to do? I have seen it too much. It is a big field. I don't think we will be running into each other too much.

 

[PikeBadger]

On the subject of receiver decision making, I've posted the following link before:

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/greg-jennings-nfl-wide-receiver/

This is required reading.

Very interesting. Especially the thoughts about Randy Moss. He was truly a uniquely gifted player. Incredible hand-eye coordination. I bet he could've been a great basketball player or top flight outfielder as well.

 

[gopkrs]

Sorry about the spelling error...did not mean to do that

 

[swhitset]

My biggest issue with going for it on 4th down wasn't the decision, it was the play call. Tried to get cute with a draw play out of shotgun, with Starks. I would have rather ran Lacy up the gut in a goal line formation, or even bootleg action with Rodgers rolling right with the option to pass or run it for the 1st.

The decision didn't bother me, but the play call was very questionable.

I agree with your thoughts on the play call, However.... down by 3 late in the 3rd quarter, offense has been struggling...TIE THE GAME!

 

[PackAttack12]

I agree with your thoughts on the play call, However.... down by 3 late in the 3rd quarter, offense has been struggling...TIE THE GAME!

Certainly agree with that thought process, especially in hindsight. If it's me, I take the 3 points all day. But like I said, not completely against the decision that was made.

What irritates me more than that is all of the very good drives that we had in the 2nd half, and particularly the 4th quarter where we had opportunities to tie the game or even take the lead, and turnovers ended up costing us the game. If we cash in on one of the final two drives, we still win the football game even with all of the struggles and issues that we have been outlining the past few days. Against a really good team.

So even with the disappointment, we should all really have more reasons to be optimistic than pessimistic. Not referencing you, just the board in general.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

Stubbornness seems to be the recurring theme with this organization. No major changes in the coaching hierarchy, refusal to let underperforming draft picks go, calling plays that don't work, Rodgers wanting to go deep when there is nothing there.

I'm not convinced they can adapt. Rodgers has played poorly, but the route tree is consisting of the same ISO plays that couldn't get anyone open last season.

The Jaguars couldn't cover the SD receivers, but they blanketed ours all day. That is concerning. Marcus Mariota had a better game against Minnesota with Rishard Matthews, Tajae Sharpe, and Andre Johnson. If they are better than our receivers, we are in trouble.

McCarthy should have relinquished himself and anyone involved with offensive duties this past season. That was abysmal. And they still are.

 

[JBlood]

Rodgers rolling right with the option to pass or run it for the 1st

Always a tough thing to cover, college or NFL.

 

[PackAttack12]

Always a tough thing to cover, college or NFL.

Particularly when you are only needing one yard.

 

[gopkrs]

Except he throws so well rolling left. And it is less expected.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Well Hard Edge, it seems to me that our differences lies in when the adjustments are really made. You have most or all of the adjustments occurring b4 the play has started.

I didn't say that. In fact I gave you an example to illustrate in-route adjustments. Did you complete the required reading all the way through? For instance, Jennings says, "you have to look at the rotation of the defense as you’re running in order to figure out how to put yourself in an optimal position to make a play on the ball." That's before the receiver even looks for the ball. The QB has to read the same thing for optimal chance of success.

Problem is, it has not been working for about a year now.

Clearly, after having worked exceptionally well previously.

All the defenses are also figuring out where we are going most of the time. I want the receivers to be able to really adjust and I want Rodgers to wait if he has to.

Wait for the receiver to get open? That's what he's doing and that's the problem. That dog don't hunt in the NFL; it takes too long. By the time you get to the second or third receiver in the progression the window of opportunity in those progressions has closed and you're out of time. It's a matter of trust and chemistry between receiver and QB, which appears to be pretty rough at the moment. And of course skill in execution is essential.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Sorry about the spelling error...did not mean to do that

That's why there's an edit function.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Very interesting. Especially the thoughts about Randy Moss. He was truly a uniquely gifted player. Incredible hand-eye coordination. I bet he could've been a great basketball player or top flight outfielder as well.

The Moss example illustrates another unappreciated aspect of the game...the "tell". How does that DB with his back to the throw know to turn and make a play on the ball? He watches for the receiver's eyes to get big. Jennings point was that Moss did not give that away. An offensive lineman might set a little differently on run than he does on pass. A safety begins to rotate a hair before the snap giving away the coverage. Film study can reveal "tells" in addition to tendencies.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

That is so, so wrong.

While you're absolutely correct about the receivers having to make adjustments before and during a play the Packers WRs don't have any flexibility in making those as Rodgers expects them to be in an exact spot based on the defensive scheme.

It's different on a broken play when the quarterback just wants them to get open to be able to target one of them.

 

[gopkrs]

I would think it is an advantage for the DB to know that no matter what kind of moves he is getting from the receiver; the receiver is actually thinking of only one spot to be and not really looking for an open area.

 

[HardRightEdge]

While you're absolutely correct about the receivers having to make adjustments before and during a play the Packers WRs don't have any flexibility in making those as Rodgers expects them to be in an exact spot based on the defensive scheme.

The QB is making adjustments after the snap. He's looking at how the defense is rotating, for example. just as the receiver should be doing.

Well, that goes to the point that once the coin is flipped the QB is always right. And that's not just in Packerland; it's anywhere the QB is an accomplished veteran. The receivers need to see opportunity the way the QB sees it.

In film study, game planning and practice, one would expect an exchange between coaches, QB and receivers in terms of where opponent tendencies and vulnerabilities may reside. But once the game starts, the guy with the PhD in reading defenses calls the tune and the receivers need to sing along.

This is art more than science, and the QB and receivers paint the picture together, but it's the QB that draws the outline and picks the paints.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

net.
I don't think that your statement is really fair to make. Just reading thread after thread on this site shows how quickly many of the fans here would love to hang any of those mentioned in your post. The fact of the matter is, just imagine how those posters would have come unglued if Rogers, Nelson or any other player not participating in preseason, WOULD HAVE PARTICIPATED and got injured for the season. They would be calling for MM and/or TT head on a stick! The old "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation. I have to say, there is a lot more *****ing going on this season. I for one am joining PFLM!!!

DS

 

[Half Empty]

Hey, for seven figures a year, you could call me anything you want.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The QB is making adjustments after the snap. He's looking at how the defense is rotating, for example. just as the receiver should be doing.

Well, that goes to the point that once the coin is flipped the QB is always right. And that's not just in Packerland; it's anywhere the QB is an accomplished veteran. The receivers need to see opportunity the way the QB sees it.

In film study, game planning and practice, one would expect an exchange between coaches, QB and receivers in terms of where opponent tendencies and vulnerabilities may reside. But once the game starts, the guy with the PhD in reading defenses calls the tune and the receivers need to sing along.

This is art more than science, and the QB and receivers paint the picture together, but it's the QB that draws the outline and picks the paints.

True, so after all you agree with me that receivers don't have any flexibility within the Packers offensive scheme except on broken plays.

The fact of the matter is, just imagine how those posters would have come unglued if Rogers, Nelson or any other player not participating in preseason, WOULD HAVE PARTICIPATED and got injured for the season. They would be calling for MM and/or TT head on a stick! The old "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation. I have to say, there is a lot more *****ing going on this season. I for one am joining PFLM!!!

It's for sure unfortunate to lose an important player during the preseason but I would like the Packers to play their starters more often in exhibition games. While struggling early during the season doesn't result in a team not making the playoffs it could end up costing home field advantage.

In addition players get injured during practice as well (Bridgewater) therefore there's no guarantee of getting through the preseason healthy by resting starters in preseason games.

 

[PikeBadger]

It's for sure unfortunate to lose an important player during the preseason but I would like the Packers to play their starters more often in exhibition games. While struggling early during the season doesn't result in a team not making the playoffs it could end up costing home field advantage

I don't think staff and mgmt buy your philosophy. I think they view the first quarter of the season more as a time of working towards the guts of the season. Getting a real feel for the team identity, building cohesiveness and plotting the direction going forward. I've sensed this ever since the 2012 season. I think 2010 & 11 possibly changed some of the old established ways at how they view some of these things at 1265 Lombardi.

 

[Ogsponge]

I think the overall problem here is that if the offense had been as good as we expect it to be, the slow start and not playing in the preseason would not be an issue. However this offense has been pretty pathetic for nearly a full season now. Maybe, just maybe, a little more time together in a game situation might have worked out some of the kinks and perhaps Rodgers could have developed some confidence with the younger guys so that the Packers could use more than 3 of the 7 receivers they kept on the roster...

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I don't think staff and mgmt buy your philosophy. I think they view the first quarter of the season more as a time of working towards the guts of the season. Getting a real feel for the team identity, building cohesiveness and plotting the direction going forward. I've sensed this ever since the 2012 season. I think 2010 & 11 possibly changed some of the old established ways at how they view some of these things at 1265 Lombardi.

There's absolutely no doubt the coaching staff and management have a different opinion about starters getting preseason snaps. While it's more important to perform on a high level at the end of the year the first few games of a season are vital to secure home field advantage and the success in the playoffs as well. Just take a look at the 2014 season.