The pre-season, overall philosophy and cockiness

[HardRightEdge]

Not at all.. Rodgers stunk it up and there is something going on..

But you come to post to gloat when they lose.

There is something going on, and I think I know what it is.

Rodgers has always been a holder of the ball, and fond of slipping, sliding, and ditching the pocket. A few training camps back, McCarthy used that 2.5 second bell in practices to try to condition him to getting the ball out on time. I think he abandoned that to let Rodgers be Rodgers. That was the right decision.

However, prior to the back half of last season, he'd do it looking for the big play, eschewing the under route or check down. Now, it seems he's just not comfortable with where his receivers will be to throw them open, Cobb being an exception. One throw in this last game illustrated that, hitting Cobb on an intermediate middle route threading the needle between defenders that we've seen so many times before. Further, those short slants to Adams in man coverage, which look like called pattern routes, have been going off like clockwork.

The Packers are more an option route than a combination route or pattern route passing offense. Success depends on the mind meld between QB and receiver. At this juncture, it's just not there. It looks to be that Rodgers is holding the ball until the receiver makes his break; if he's not open then time has elapsed to work the progression. At that point it's ad lib playground ball, something we're not unfamiliar with but now it looks like the staple of the offense, which is not good. In other words, the ball holding now looks more like perceived necessity than opportunism.

Seeing repeated disconnects on back shoulders, a staple of the mind meld in the world according to Rodgers, is a particular indication of lack of chemistry and lack of confidence by the QB with his receivers. The mental connection with Nelson looks rusty. The mental connection with Adams looks reasonably decent. With Adams one can isolate on any one tough catch not made and excuse it, but so far he's not made a sufficient number of them and none downfield; Rodgers' frustration is evident.

So, we wait to see what transpires. A good game against a weak Detroit pass D and a depleted defense in general could jump start the confidence factor. If not, we move on to week 4 and see what happens.

 

[Mondio]

probably a lot to that ^^^

 

[easyk83]

Pass, it's wrong, run it's wrong, FG's are wrong, going for it was wrong, everything is wrong when you don't win. Well you know what? put a sock in it. Bulaga has been playing well, he had a bad play, but overall he's been just fine out there. Rodgers had about 12-15 bad plays last night.

I have no problem going for it. I felt pretty good with our defense last night keeping MN down there and getting the ball back to our offense. They didn't, instead they got like 60 yards. But seriously. We kick FG's and people ******* *****. We go for it, people ******* *****. Maybe McCarty sensed the same thing you're *****ing about and said, "alright team, you think you're good, go get it" and they didn't. Maybe that was his statement? maybe he just wanted to test them, regardless, it wasn't completely stupid against an offense that had nothing outside of 1-2 plays up to that point. Cripes, the entire game MN had like 6 plays on offense (I'm sure they had more, but overall, it was a play here or there was all they had).

anyway, last night was bad on offense. It's concerning for certain. BUT, Bradford is never going to throw more perfect passes than he did last night. I know Rodgers can, but will he? If GB remains half way efficient last night and gets 1st downs instead of 30 yard pass attempts, I think this game is a blowout.

Credit to MN, their offense made just enough plays and their punter and defense did the rest. But there were plays there to be made on offense and they didn't. Man, i'd hope when you have a team pinned against their own goalline for practically every drive of the game, and your offense gets the ball near midfield for every drive we'd win by 17, not 3. This ship can be righted, they have to do it, but it's not sunk.

It seems like Aaron gets called out for farting around in the pocket and big play hunting at least once every couple of years. He caught flack back in 2009 mid way through the season and then again in 2013(or was it 14?) It seems like he usually cleans up his act for a while after his teammates demand it.

Part of what kills me is Aaron's refusal to look at himself as the overall commander of the offense as opposed to just a player within the offense. If the passing game is struggling but the run game is taking off then commit to the run. Lacy was looked like a beast in the second half yesterday, why only 6 carries?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It seems like Aaron gets called out for farting around in the pocket and big play hunting at least once every couple of years. He caught flack back in 2009 mid way through the season and then again in 2013(or was it 14?) It seems like he usually cleans up his act for a while after his teammates demand it.

Rodgers has never struggled over an extended period of time until now though.

 

[easyk83]

Rodgers has never struggled over an extended period of time until now though.

In the past perhaps he had better and more trusted talent to work with in the passing game?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

In the past perhaps he had better and more trusted talent to work with in the passing game?

Possibly. I would expect an elite quarterback being able to better adjust to inferior talent though.

 

[easyk83]

There is something going on, and I think I know what it is.

Rodgers has always been a holder of the ball, and fond of slipping, sliding, and ditching the pocket. A few training camps back, McCarthy used that 2.5 second bell in practices to try to condition him to getting the ball out on time. I think he abandoned that to let Rodgers be Rodgers. That was the right decision.

However, prior to the back half of last season, he'd do it looking for the big play, eschewing the under route or check down. Now, it seems he's just not comfortable with where his receivers will be to throw them open, Cobb being an exception. One throw in this last game illustrated that, hitting Cobb on an intermediate middle route threading the needle between defenders that we've seen so many times before. Further, those short slants to Adams in man coverage, which look like called pattern routes, have been going off like clockwork.

The Packers are more an option route than a combination route or pattern route passing offense. Success depends on the mind meld between QB and receiver. At this juncture, it's just not there. It looks to be that Rodgers is holding the ball until the receiver makes his break; if he's not open then time has elapsed to work the progression. At that point it's ad lib playground ball, something we're not unfamiliar with but now it looks like the staple of the offense, which is not good. In other words, the ball holding now looks more like perceived necessity than opportunism.

Seeing repeated disconnects on back shoulders, a staple of the mind meld in the world according to Rodgers, is a particular indication of lack of chemistry and lack of confidence by the QB with his receivers. The mental connection with Nelson looks rusty. The mental connection with Adams looks reasonably decent. With Adams one can isolate on any one tough catch not made and excuse it, but so far he's not made a sufficient number of them and none downfield; Rodgers' frustration is evident.

So, we wait to see what transpires. A good game against a weak Detroit pass D and a depleted defense in general could jump start the confidence factor. If not, we move on to week 4 and see what happens.

This would also explain Rodgers' struggles against good bump n run secondaries in the past. When teams could matchup and play man on our guys and knock them off their routes suddenly Rodgers would look very pedestrian. IMHO the Packers scheme is fundamentally flawed, and even if we do clean things up we're not winning a super bowl with this group until rely on a more coverage resistant approach to offense.

 

[easyk83]

Possibly. I would expect an elite quarterback being able to better adjust to inferior talent though.

Or inferior talent exposes the fundamental flaws of the Packers offensive scheme. Maybe 4 guys running separate option routes doesn't make adjustments workable when the QB can't be sure where they're going to be.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Or inferior talent exposes the fundamental flaws of the Packers offensive scheme. Maybe 4 guys running separate option routes doesn't make adjustments workable when the QB can't be sure where they're going to be.

I've been advocating for the Packers offense to use some sort of combination routes since the middle of last season. It's mind-boggling the coaching staff still hasn't incorporated more of them in the game plan.

 

[easyk83]

I've been advocating for the Packers offense to use some sort of combination routes since the middle of last season. It's mind-boggling the coaching staff still hasn't incorporated more of them in the game plan.

Because they pinned everything on Nelson's absence and Adams slump.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Because they pinned everything on Nelson's absence and Adams slump.

Well, then the coaches better make some changes as soon as possible because the offense is still struggling.

 

[HardRightEdge]

This would also explain Rodgers' struggles against good bump n run secondaries in the past. When teams could matchup and play man on our guys and knock them off their routes suddenly Rodgers would look very pedestrian.

With one caveat: bump and run with 2-high safeties. Even now under diminished confidence, I'm sure Rodgers eyes get big when he seems press coverage in isolation. He loves the option of downfield or that patented 20 yard back shoulder. And he's going there with whoever the receiver might be until they get it right.[/QUOTE]

IMHO the Packers scheme is fundamentally flawed, and even if we do clean things up we're not winning a super bowl with this group until rely on a more coverage resistant approach to offense.

It's not so much flawed as stubborn. It's an instance of how your greatest strength can be your greatest weakness. McCarthy is big on preparation, setting a plan and sticking with it. Within that context, there's the "hot hand" factor in terms of who gets the ball, but always within the context of the game plan. We should appreciate that. Jumping to plan B and then plan C before fully exploring plan A and then B, is just a willy nilly hot mess.

If there's a flaw, it's in playing to perceived strength more than against opponent weakness. And that's based on letting Rodgers be Rodgers. Further, he's on the same page with Rodgers in the "keep after it until it works" mode.

For perspective, the problem last season was a lack of speed in the receiving group. There was no strength to play to. Jones on one side, an often limping Adams on the other, and Rodgers unable to outrun your average linebacker, meant defenses could do with single high safety what they could do with double high before which closed down Cobb's bread-and-butter under routes. That's not McCarthy's fault. And still, with a mediocre defense, getting to the NFC championship was and overtime away. Now, the speed is better, Nelson is back, Adams isn't limping, but there are chemistry issues. I'll take this seasons struggles over last season's hands down because there is the possibility they can be fixed. Not so last season.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Well, then the coaches better make some changes as soon as possible because the offense is still struggling.

It's too soon to jump to plan B. Right now they're working the base offense (3 wide, in-line TE, single back) a very high percentage of the time to work out the kinks and get some flow going in the traditional strength using no huddle against predictable opponent personnel groups.

The first 3 games are like extended preseason, or what preseason used to be. Unfortunately, with a season that can run as many as 25 games including preseason, regular season and playoffs, you just can't risk the injuries in preseason.

If things are not clicking with this Detroit game, adjustments would be in order. Nelson is still shaking off the rust. Cook hasn't played much with Rodgers and could be more in the mix. Cobb's looking good. I think Adams is the key...if he makes that one tough downfield catch things should start clicking.

If not, then what? It's not like you're going to turn Rodgers into a game manager throwing to combination and patterned routes as a staple. It's not in this player's or this offense's DNA. The adjustments would be incremental, such as more formation variations, getting Cook in at #1 TE (I've noted he is in fact a better blocker than Rodgers beside his evident receiving skills), and perhaps giving one of the other WRs an opportunity to show growth in some 4 WR sets.

If, however, Rodgers is stuck in his own head, then the season could be another grind it out. At least the front 7 looks very good and despite missteps we've seen this very same DB personnel group (with Shields) perform at a high level. Maybe the defense can win some games.

 

[Mondio]

As frustrating as it was, this offense did do some good things in the 2nd half, and if they take care of the ball, this outcome is probably different. They can fix the little things

 

[RepStar15]

So much went wrong against the Vikings, and for this offense the past year. I think it is time to mix up the looks. A good DC know what they are going to get with the Packers offense, every time. They are very predictable. Whereas, a team like the Patriots is almost impossible to prepare for, because they are mixing up their plays weekly. I think it is time to dig further into the playbook, because we can no longer give the same offensive looks that have been successful in the previous 7 years. Also, Rodgers has been most successful when he throws to 6+ targets a game. Let's get Monty, Cook, Abby and Davis in the lineup for some new looks and to save Cobb and Jordy from playing too many snaps.
That being said, it was almost impossible to prepare Week 1 for the Jaguars (so many new faces on the field with injuries returning) and the Vikings (a new QB). So much goes into the preparation for a football game, that is why we need to mix up our offensive look.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It's too soon to jump to plan B. Right now they're working the base offense (3 wide, in-line TE, single back) a very high percentage of the time to work out the kinks and get some flow going in the traditional strength using no huddle against predictable opponent personnel groups.

The first 3 games are like extended preseason, or what preseason used to be. Unfortunately, with a season that can run as many as 25 games including preseason, regular season and playoffs, you just can't risk the injuries in preseason.

If things are not clicking with this Detroit game, adjustments would be in order. Nelson is still shaking off the rust. Cook hasn't played much with Rodgers and could be more in the mix. Cobb's looking good. I think Adams is the key...if he makes that one tough downfield catch things should start clicking.

I wouldn't be concerned about the offense if the unit had only struggled for the first two games of this season. Unfortunately this has been going on for nearly an entire year. It's true that Nelson has to shake off some rust and Rodgers getting used to having a tight end like Cook but at some point within the next few games progress is badly needed.

Another thing I'm worried about is the offense getting back on track against a well below average Lions defense and believing the struggles at Minnesota were a fluke.

If not, then what? It's not like you're going to turn Rodgers into a game manager throwing to combination and patterned routes as a staple. It's not in this player's or this offense's DNA. The adjustments would be incremental, such as more formation variations, getting Cook in at #1 TE (I've noted he is in fact a better blocker than Rodgers beside his evident receiving skills), and perhaps giving one of the other WRs an opportunity to show growth in some 4 WR sets.

If, however, Rodgers is stuck in his own head, then the season could be another grind it out. At least the front 7 looks very good and despite missteps we've seen this very same DB personnel group (with Shields) perform at a high level. Maybe the defense can win some games.

Rodgers has to finally start throwing to open receivers even if that means gaining a few yards only. If he's not capable of doing that take the ball out of his hands and run it more often.

 

[HardRightEdge]

...but at some point within the next few games progress is badly needed.

No argument there. 1-3 would not look good. 1-4 would put the team hard behind the 8 ball. There's a history of Rodgers reinstalling the chip on the shoulder when criticism mounts. Though past performance is no guarantee of future returns, I wouldn't bet against it in this case.

 

[gopkrs]

I really wonder how much flexibility our receivers have. I know that sometimes they will go deep if it looks like they can make it but are they allowed to make other decisions? I think we are too predictable right now with our route running. I don't think Rodgers wants to do it but I say let the receivers find a way to get open and have Rodgers survey the field and hit the open man.

 

[PackAttack12]

I backed MM for taking the FGs against Seattle in the playoffs, which didn't work out. I was ok with going for it last night, and it didn't work out. So I'm as wrong as MM. I think MM really thinks we have a power offense, which we don't. This is a finesse offense which doesn't work when Rogers is off. He missed way too many throws last night. It'll change and we'll be in the playoffs again, but I don't think we have the defense or offense that will get us to the Championship. But, for the rose glasses crowd, we're lookin' pretty good on the cap side for next year......

My biggest issue with going for it on 4th down wasn't the decision, it was the play call. Tried to get cute with a draw play out of shotgun, with Starks. I would have rather ran Lacy up the gut in a goal line formation, or even bootleg action with Rodgers rolling right with the option to pass or run it for the 1st.

The decision didn't bother me, but the play call was very questionable.

 

[HardRightEdge]

They didn't, instead they got like 60 yards. But seriously. We kick FG's and people ******* *****. We go for it, people ******* *****.

Yeah. Following the defensive collapse, with a big assist from special teams, against Seattle in the 2014 playoffs, there was some measure of b*tching about McCarthy kicking FGs on two 4th. and goals on the 1 yard line, as though taking points in the first quarter somehow has equal weight with giving the game away in the fourth quarter.

I have a consistent view on this matter. I agreed with taking those FGs against Seattle. I believe the right move here would have been taking the FG given it was in 90%+ make territory. If the ball was on the 30 yard line in the 50/50 FG proposition range, give or take, then go for it.

However, just adding 3 points with 20 minutes to play and calling it an eventual OT game makes no sense. Every decision affects what comes next. The flow of this game was against the Packer offense, which is the most compelling reason to think McCarthy wanted 7 points to make an offensive statement and turn the flow.

You said this may be a case of McCarthy wanting to test the offense in an "OK, guys, go get it" moment. I'm more inclined think it was an "it feels right" moment with the momentum of a 10 play/73 yard drive, underpinned by the nagging history of the defense struggling to hold ground late in games.

Of course the downside is matriculating nearly the full length of the field and coming away with no points. The points themselves are not as important as the momentum swing in coming up empty. So take the FG with the "OK, guys, go get it" message placed on the defense.

Again, there were 20 minutes left in the game. It's not like it was under 2 minutes. There was plenty of opportunity on both sides of the ball to make a play and swing momentum back in the Packers favor. While I have a preference in this situation, it really was not a game changer.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I really wonder how much flexibility our receivers have. I know that sometimes they will go deep if it looks like they can make it but are they allowed to make other decisions? I think we are too predictable right now with our route running. I don't think Rodgers wants to do it but I say let the receivers find a way to get open and have Rodgers survey the field and hit the open man.

As long as it's not a broken play the receivers don't have any flexibility in the Packers offense.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I really wonder how much flexibility our receivers have. I know that sometimes they will go deep if it looks like they can make it but are they allowed to make other decisions?

Receivers make decisions on nearly every route.

When you break the huddle, you don't know if the defender is playing press or off coverage. You don't know if it's man or zone. You don't know if it there's a high safety double team look or if the D is crowding the box in a blitz look. The receiver is expected to adjust to what he sees, and the adjustment needs to be the same as what the QB sees.

Sometimes the communication is an audible. Other times it's the exchange of a look or little hand signals when an opportunity that may have been targeted in the game plan presents itself. Sometimes if there's a blitz look from the receiver's side, he's expected to break off the route into the space vacated by the blitzer. This last example is standard operating procedure in the NFL to such a degree that Capers (and others) will drop a lineman into the vacated space to exploit the adjustment.

They're not out there running willy nilly, at least not until the QB breaks the pocket. But they are expected to adjust to the defense. It could be a small variation on the established theme, such as breaking off a route a little longer or a little shorter depending on the defense. Or it could be sophisticated playground ball...a look that says "forget the route...take that man press coverage over the top, but if he's riding you to the inside with his back to the play then break for the back shoulder."

 

[HardRightEdge]

As long as it's not a broken play the receivers don't have any flexibility in the Packers offense.

That is so, so wrong.

 

[HardRightEdge]

On the subject of receiver decision making, I've posted the following link before:

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/greg-jennings-nfl-wide-receiver/

This is required reading.

 

[gopkrs]

I don't think the coach gives them many choices and Rodgers (the perfectionist) likes that. Hard Edge, yes, when they get to the line of scrimmage the coach wants the QB and the receiver to know what spot they are going to. But to be able to get open the receiver needs to make decisions during the play. And the QB sometimes needs to wait for that. That is not running "willy nilly." That is adjusting to the way the DB is playing. And timing patterns have their place...but should be used sparingly.