Studs and Duds vs Seahawks

[gopkrs]

After the Lions game, LaFleur said that the challenges are a combination of what he sees live and what his staff sees in the booth on the television broadcast. Someone here already stated that LaFleur seems to throw the flag with too much emotion and not enough thought in his decisions. The guys in the booth are seeing the broadcast the same as us, but only have probably 5-10 seconds to give a recommendation. We get more time to second-guess it before the staff communicates and LaFleur has to decide to throw it or not.

All that said, I completely agree that the intern (or whomever it is) up there needs to be reassigned. The decision to throw the flag should only be made if the staff sees conclusive evidence -- a no doubter -- or if it's 50/50 and the team might normally use a timeout in this situation.

Sometimes the play is too important not to throw the flag if you aren't sure

 

[DoURant]

Dare I say that the outside CB's, Valentine (90.2 PFF) and Stokes (77.8 PFF) were studs? Valentine had two PD's and an INT. Stokes gave up 2 catches for 10 yards. Metcalf and Lockett weren't factors, combined 4 catches for 50 yards. The pass defense was only hurt by the slot, Jackson-Njigba, and most of his damage was in the middle of the field.

That's what happens when you have an effective pass rush. 7 sacks and double digit pressures helped contribute to their high PFF grades, IMO. We need more of that moving forward.

 

[rmontro]

Going to be an odd 3 weeks. By the time they play Monday night, possible that they have a playoff slot locked up and they are only realistically playing to be the 6th or 7th seed. I can't recall a scenario like this. Once you clinch this early, normally playing for better seeding and the division with 3 games left. You want the team to be consistent and having their play continue to improve, but really the next 3 games are somewhat meaningless so MLF will have his work cut out.

Maybe the fact that they're playing division rivals will help, make them play harder. Maybe a little more pride involved. You don't want your rivals to sweep you, or feel like they have one over on you.

 

[Poppa San]

Coaches and Valentine for not knowing that if you get tackled in the endzone after an interception while trying to run it out; It's a safety.

no it's not unless there was a rule change lately.

 

[Thirteen Below]

For the record, I am a Matt LaFleur fan but I am seeing cracks in our armor at the wrong time of the season. He seems to be struggling to call effective/adaptive game plans while also managing the team as head coach, as the failed challenge flags have evidenced. Jordan Love needs every bit of support right now from Matt LaFleur and Tom Clements. Matt is generally great, but right now needs some help to get back on top of his game.

Great analysis. Thanks for sharing it. You touched on a lot of different elements that a lot of us have noticed many times and often commented on.

I'm a member of the Matt Lafleur fan club too, and feel really good about him as our coach for the indefinite future. But it's also a fact that he has some weaknesses, and they're worth discussing.

And a lot of us are frustrated that he just doesn't seem to learn from his very basic mistakes. Before I retired, I made it a point to tell my people that I didn't want to worry about making mistakes - i expected people to make mistakes, because their job was to think and make decisions. And when you're making independent decisions, you're going to make mistakes. All I asked was that they learn from them, and try not to make the same ones over and over again.

I really hate to say it, but he reminds me a lot of McCarthy in that regard. Just overloaded at critical points, when all the different moving parts are just too many and moving too quickly to stay ahead of. He just doesn't seem to adjust to that. And with every season, it seems less likely that he's ever going to.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I only have one knock on Love, otherwise perty darn good. Late in the game he made another one of those on the run to his right and threw across his body into the middle of the field. To me this was even more egregious than the pick against SF. In that instance they were behind, and time was running out. Here GB had control of the game, no need for a risky throw there. Fortunately, a lot more good than bad. Love and the boys looked good.

Yeah he is a risk taker, much more like Favre than Rodgers. That doesn't mean making very low percentage passes. He has the arm strength to pull off a throw as you describe. But into a sea of different jerseys? Better to throw it away and live for the next play.

He's making fewer of these passes lately and his INTs are way down. He's still gonna take more chances with the ball than Rodgers. And that may end up to be a good thing in the long run. QBs have to be able to throw into tight windows. He has the arm strength to do it, maybe not the sensibility yet when the odds are just too long.

But I understand your point. Lasy year and earlier in this season, he just wasn't aware of down, distance, time on the clock, and he'd make these lousy throws - like the pick in SF where he just didn't have to throw the ball. I'm still glad he's on our side.

 

[Heyjoe4]

no it's not unless there was a rule change lately.

Yeah that is definitely not a safety. The CB making the interception sometimes runs sideways looking for a lane out of the end zone, and then if he's smart, usually just takes a knee. Good decision or bad decision, getting tackled in the end zone after a pic is never a safety.

 

[gopkrs]

no it's not unless there was a rule change lately.

It has always been that way and I looked it up to see if there was a rule change but there wasn't.

 

[gopkrs]

Yeah that is definitely not a safety. The CB making the interception sometimes runs sideways looking for a lane out of the end zone, and then if he's smart, usually just takes a knee. Good decision or bad decision, getting tackled in the end zone after a pic is never a safety.

You can do that and then decide to take a knee. No problem. But if you try and run it out and get tackled in the end zone; it's a safety. It's always been that way.

 

[Don Barclay]

Dunno if this helps, but here are safety rules from the league on the ol' internet:
https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-rulebook/#section-5-safety

Doesn't seem like it would be a safety if you intercept and are tackled in the end zone, unless the intercepting team commits a foul in the end zone (e.g., holding on the return).

Following the section on safeties, Section 6 on touchbacks offers Article 2, paragraph (a), which seems pretty definitive.

 

[gopkrs]

Doesn't seem like it would be a safety if you intercept and are tackled in the end zone, unless the intercepting team commits a foul in the end zone (e.g., holding on the return).

Well just getting tackled in the end zone is a touchback. But if the interceptor tries to run it out and makes moves to do so and gets tackled; it's a safety. And yes, if there is a penalty by his team mate, who is also in the endzone; that's also a safety too.

 

[Don Barclay]

But if the interceptor tries to run it out and makes moves to do so and gets tackled; it's a safety.

I didn't see that in the rules I linked to, and I've never seen it called that way, to my knowledge. Do you have any examples or sources for that?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

After the Lions game, LaFleur said that the challenges are a combination of what he sees live and what his staff sees in the booth on the television broadcast. Someone here already stated that LaFleur seems to throw the flag with too much emotion and not enough thought in his decisions. The guys in the booth are seeing the broadcast the same as us, but only have probably 5-10 seconds to give a recommendation. We get more time to second-guess it before the staff communicates and LaFleur has to decide to throw it or not.

All that said, I completely agree that the intern (or whomever it is) up there needs to be reassigned. The decision to throw the flag should only be made if the staff sees conclusive evidence -- a no doubter -- or if it's 50/50 and the team might normally use a timeout in this situation.

Agree, but the bottom line for me isn't how we all see it or don't, it is how many challenges the Packers get right or wrong, compared to the other 31 teams, who are playing under the same constraints. If the Packers coaching staff is last in the league in challenges, then they should be evaluating their process and making the necessary changes to improve.

While I hate to beat a dead horse, MLF has way too many irons in the fire IMO. He needs to hire a quality offensive coordinator, that can devote ALL of his/her time to calling offensive plays. Matt obviously will still have a ear to what is going on, but it might allow him the opportunity to be a better head coach.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Well just getting tackled in the end zone is a touchback. But if the interceptor tries to run it out and makes moves to do so and gets tackled; it's a safety. And yes, if there is a penalty by his team mate, who is also in the endzone; that's also a safety too.

It isn't a safety, unless the ball carrier/interceptor takes the ball OUT OF the EZ and then goes back INTO the EZ and gets tackled. It is the same for a punt or kickoff return.

 

[Heyjoe4]

You can do that and then decide to take a knee. No problem. But if you try and run it out and get tackled in the end zone; it's a safety. It's always been that way.

That's interesting gopkrs. So if Valentine had been tackled by the one guy why got hands on him, it would have been a safety? I don't know how the refs draw that line. Valentine clearly had serious contact with a WR Sunday night. You're saying that if he had been tackled in the end zone, it would have been a safety.

I'm still not sure that's right but will take your word for it. Thanks.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I didn't see that in the rules I linked to, and I've never seen it called that way, to my knowledge. Do you have any examples or sources for that?

What you're saying makes sense to me Don. I've seen enough guys make a pic in the EZ, try to find a way out, and get tackled. Never seen that called a safety, always a TB.