Pittsburgh studs duds

[SD Cheesehead]

Doubt he is eligible. This is his 4th year already. Maybe IR him? I think it's either active roster or he is cut.

I read he is still eligible because he wasn’t on PS for 3 full years and doesn’t have much time on an active roster. Not sure but I’ve seen that in a couple of places. I just think that would be our best case scenario because I don’t think we will get any of our rookies through to a PS with their athletic upside

 

[Mondio]

I don't think Kumerow makes it to PS either. We've had guys show much less get called to other active rosters. He doesn't run a 4.4 and he comes from about as small of a school as an NFL player can come from, but he's been the most noticeable guy on the field that's not a TE or Adams. Teams around the league are seeing it too. He'd have to completely fall apart, which coming from a guy that has had to work that hard to get here, I don't see that as likely at this point.

 

[Poppa San]

Allison played a total of 20 snaps vs. the Steelers, which was one more than Kumerow.

Yeah, I'm beginning to sour on Allison. May be just the Boykin effect, decent for half a season then disappears. I haven't figured out why Yancey is playing ahead of some of these guys either. He isn't showing up in the stats. Game three would be perfect for seeing what Kumerow got if his injury doesn't set him back. Throw him out with the 1's for a series to see if he still gets open. Davis needs to get off the trainers table.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't think Kumerow makes it to PS either. We've had guys show much less get called to other active rosters. He doesn't run a 4.4 and he comes from about as small of a school as an NFL player can come from, but he's been the most noticeable guy on the field that's not a TE or Adams. Teams around the league are seeing it too. He'd have to completely fall apart, which coming from a guy that has had to work that hard to get here, I don't see that as likely at this point.

So you are saying he is the next Jeff Janis?

I am half joking, but if you saw Kumerow's big grin the other night, he did kind of remind me of the wide eyed Janis. I hope Kumerow is the real deal and from what we have seen and heard from coaches and AR himself, he could be. However, until he starts lining up against some of the top 30 players in the league, we probably won't know for sure.

 

[Mondio]

He's done so much more than Janis. Janis was tall and really fast. That's where it ended. Kumerow is tall, fast enough, and does everything else a WR needs to do to be successful so far.

I'd like to see him get out there earlier too. I wouldn't expect 82 yard TDs with regularity, but I bet he'd have enough separation and the hands for consistent 7-20 yard catches

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

He's done so much more than Janis. Janis was tall and really fast. That's where it ended. Kumerow is tall, fast enough, and does everything else a WR needs to do to be successful so far.

I'd like to see him get out there earlier too. I wouldn't expect 82 yard TDs with regularity, but I bet he'd have enough separation and the hands for consistent 7-20 yard catches

That is the hope with Kumerow and for me, its Rodgers comments that have separated him from the preseason guys that came before him. Rodgers isn't so quick on praise of his WR's sometime. I can't remember who it was, but I think there was a Packer DB that also said Jake is one of the best WR's in camp right now.

 

[Mondio]

Janis separated and did things against lesser opponents because he was the fastest guy on the field as WR. Kumerow doesn't have that. He has what he's learned, a couple moves, and knows his routes. he looks rather natural catching the ball too. It wasn't the last game, i think the one before he started like he was pressing up field stuck his foot down and just cut to the inside. Set that DB up perfectly and had the separation instantly for that perfect timing throw. It's because he MUST do the little things well to be successful, that I think he will be able to be successful enough on this roster

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Janis separated and did things against lesser opponents because he was the fastest guy on the field as WR. Kumerow doesn't have that. He has what he's learned, a couple moves, and knows his routes. he looks rather natural catching the ball too. It wasn't the last game, i think the one before he started like he was pressing up field stuck his foot down and just cut to the inside. Set that DB up perfectly and had the separation instantly for that perfect timing throw. It's because he MUST do the little things well to be successful, that I think he will be able to be successful enough on this roster

Agreed. I think a lot of WR's have the physical gifts, but it is the mental gifts that can be the difference between playing in the NFL or selling cars down the street. Kumerow is actually a pretty well seasoned Vet from the standpoint of how long he has stuck around in the NFL and he does seem to have the mental makeup to excel in the Packer system. Perhaps this is his time.

Wanted to find Rogers comments on him and these were made before even the first preseason game, so I am guessing #12 might even be higher on JK 15 days later:

“I think you have to spotlight him. He’s made a ton of plays, did it all spring and summer and now he’s getting reps with me and making a ton of plays.”

“He’s running the right route all the time and making contested catches and putting the ball away,” Rodgers said. “It’s been pretty impressive for a guy from a small school in Wisconsin.”

 

[gopkrs]

Yeah, I'm beginning to sour on Allison. May be just the Boykin effect, decent for half a season then disappears. I haven't figured out why Yancey is playing ahead of some of these guys either. He isn't showing up in the stats. Game three would be perfect for seeing what Kumerow got if his injury doesn't set him back. Throw him out with the 1's for a series to see if he still gets open. Davis needs to get off the trainers table.

About Allison...you do realize we are in pre-season? It does not sound like it. Just for curiosity sake with all the stat mongerers...how many tosses went his way. Prediction...he will show up and play very well in the first real game.

 

[gopkrs]

Actually getting really tired of people talking about high ceilings. As if they really know because of the combine stats. That receiver from minihaha would have been toast a few years ago on this and other forums. Not to mention many many great players over the years who have outplayed others with "higher" ceilings. What ever happened to heart and determination? Not very easy to figure those out.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

About Allison...you do realize we are in pre-season? It does not sound like it. Just for curiosity sake with all the stat mongerers...how many tosses went his way. Prediction...he will show up and play very well in the first real game.

That has to be the plan with Adams, Cobb and Allison. How many catches do the 3 have combined thus far? I'm not expecting a ton from Allison this year, but as long as he stays healthy, he should be an adequate #3, until someone beats him out of the spot.

 

[AmishMafia]

Actually getting really tired of people talking about high ceilings. As if they really know because of the combine stats. That receiver from minihaha would have been toast a few years ago on this and other forums. Not to mention many many great players over the years who have outplayed others with "higher" ceilings. What ever happened to heart and determination? Not very easy to figure those out.

Mostly agree. There are many traits to help a WR catch a pass. Be taller than the DB, be able to jump higher, be faster, be quicker, run better routes, be smarter, be more in tune with the QB to modify your route as coverage dictates, be stronger in contested balls . . . etc. Each of these is a tool in the toolbox. A great receiver is one who has multiple traits and can, over time, be more productive by exploiting weaknesses of DBs. For example, a WR who is fast and runs great routes. If the DB respects the speed, he has to give a cushion. But that allows him to make a great cut and get open for a shorter pass. You cant teach speed, quickness, height, etc. Guys who have the natural talent have more opportunity of making a reception and thus have a higher ceiling. You can still have a successful career if you are short and slow, if you make up by being very smart, crisp routes, and great hands. But the more tools in the toolbox the better.

 

[gopkrs]

Mostly agree. There are many traits to help a WR catch a pass. Be taller than the DB, be able to jump higher, be faster, be quicker, run better routes, be smarter, be more in tune with the QB to modify your route as coverage dictates, be stronger in contested balls . . . etc. Each of these is a tool in the toolbox. A great receiver is one who has multiple traits and can, over time, be more productive by exploiting weaknesses of DBs. For example, a WR who is fast and runs great routes. If the DB respects the speed, he has to give a cushion. But that allows him to make a great cut and get open for a shorter pass. You cant teach speed, quickness, height, etc. Guys who have the natural talent have more opportunity of making a reception and thus have a higher ceiling. You can still have a successful career if you are short and slow, if you make up by being very smart, crisp routes, and great hands. But the more tools in the toolbox the better.

What you said in the beginning is true. But being taller or faster does not in themselves make for a higher ceiling. It is the whole enchilada.

 

[Dantés]

Not only a shot, but he may be one injury away from starting, another season with very little quality depth at ILB.

I think he will play behind Thomas when it’s all said and done.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I think he will play behind Thomas when it’s all said and done.

You could be right. Both Thomas and Martini are guys you would expect to end up on a PS, not as your next backup plan. I realize the loss of Ryan wasn't planned, but the ILB position has to be a bit of a concern. Sure, Matthews can always be slid inside, but then what does that do at the OLB spot? Gilbert could be ready, but thus far Biegel has been a disappointment.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Before anybody goes batsh*t, let me preface the following comments by saying this is an examination of athletic traits and not a projection of Kumorow's future productivity. Also included are some perspectives on what a 40 time tells you and what it does not.

Kumerow's Pro Day: http://www.draftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=112573&draftyear=2015&genpos=WR to

Nelson's Combine: http://www.draftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=12364&draftyear=2008&genpos=wr

Kumerow was 3/100 slower in the 40, an insignificant difference. Vertical is the same. Nelson 10" better in the long jump. However, Kumerow's quickness numbers in the shuttle and 3-cone are remakable for a guy 6' 4 1/2", measurably better than Nelson's and more comparable to Adams (whose nickname should be "Sudden"). I wouldn't bother with this or cite quickness measurables if I didn't think the quickness was evident on the field. Kumerow was quicker than Adams in the shuttle but slower in 3-cone:

http://www.draftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=91227&draftyear=2014&genpos=WR

40 times can be representative or deceptive. In Nelson's case, I've observed many times that Nelson was a long strider, had an elite 5th. gear, and was one of the fastest guys in the league once he got rolling, say in the 15-60 yard range. If the eye test didn't convince you then consider he ran a 10.63 100 meters in high school. For a little perspective, NCAA champions (who would be older, more mature, and in "professional" sprinter training) have run in recent years in the 9.95 - 10.00 range after wind adjustment.

In looking for the 100 meter high school record, I found this:

https://collegefootballtalk.nbcspor...s-national-high-school-100-meter-dash-record/

It would be hard to find a starker illustration of where a poor 40 time can disguise elite long speed.

Of course Nelson had other "stuff" going on which we can lump into "football skills". Obviously many long speed sprinters have been NFL busts.

Now, we hear a lot about eye tests that say, "his field speed is better than his 40 time", as though this is some mystery. Of course a guy might just carry his pads better than others. Or there could be a mental component where a receiver might run a bit faster being chased or run a bit faster tracking down a deep ball, i.e., there's a football objective, than they do on an empty track. But there's not much mystery in the fact that different players have different acceleration curves. Some guys are quick off the line but top out quicker. Other guys, like Nelson, have an acceleration curve that keeps building to a very fast top.

Until the NFL Combine runs a 60 yard dash (where 60 yards is the outer limit of a thrown ball factoring in pocket depth), and records a 15-60 yard split time, this receiver field speed "mystery" will gain little clarity.

So, what kind of receiver is Kumerow and are his athletic abilities NFL-caliber?

If you didn't know his height while watching him I think you'd be surprised to find out how tall he is. I think that's because he is not a long strider. He has a running gait of a smaller guy. But that's where the quickness measurables come from. To my eye, his 4.54 Pro Day 40 time is in with his long speed in contrast to a Nelson. Is that bad? While 4.49 is what one might consider the break point above acceptable NFL receiver speed, compare to Adams' 4.51. Does 2/ 100, 3/100 or 5/100 of a second make much difference when receivers like Adams who lack that "mystery" long speed have the other things that make up a high-caliber NFL receiver given everything else that makes a WR? Evidently not.

Kumerow is more in the Adams mold than the Nelson mold in comparing to receivers we know well. If he wins it will be on quickness and route running, not speed, as is the case with Adams.

It's not Kumerow's athletic characteristcs that are at issue. It's the "other things" which are more mysterious than field speed. What would he do when he's playing against first stringers? At least so far the "other things" look pretty good against second stringers. Of course first string compeition is an issued for the rookies as well.

 

[Dantés]

You could be right. Both Thomas and Martini are guys you would expect to end up on a PS, not as your next backup plan. I realize the loss of Ryan wasn't planned, but the ILB position has to be a bit of a concern. Sure, Matthews can always be slid inside, but then what does that do at the OLB spot? Gilbert could be ready, but thus far Biegel has been a disappointment.

I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if one or both still ended up on the practice squad in a scenario where the Packers sign a roster cut that they like a lot at the position.

 

[HardRightEdge]

You could be right. Both Thomas and Martini are guys you would expect to end up on a PS, not as your next backup plan. I realize the loss of Ryan wasn't planned, but the ILB position has to be a bit of a concern. Sure, Matthews can always be slid inside, but then what does that do at the OLB spot? Gilbert could be ready, but thus far Biegel has been a disappointment.

There's a secondary problem with a Matthews / Gilbert combination, which I characterized with a . Or was it a ?

Matthews did not show himself to be more than a serviceable ILB. If necessity required replacing the Martinez/Matthews combo with a Matthews/Gilbert combo you've probably weakened two positions in the 3-down scheme of things.

McCarron did a breakdown of Ahmad Thomas' play in the Titans game where he showed several impressive, physical plays. I'm not finding that link now but somebody else might.

The problem with viewing Thomas as the #3 is that he's in the Burks hybrid mold, a converted safety, long on speed and short on size for an ILB. I can see him as the backup to Burks, but the idea of a Burks/Thomas combo in the event of a Martinez injury presents issues in base and short yardage. Thomas plays physical, but as we discussed before these hybrid guys win on read-and-react not stack-and-shed. Having two hybrid guys with no NFL game experience out there playing the run should be viewed as problematic.

I don't think Martini being the first guy off the bench in preseason is necessarily his current position on the depth chart. He ran a 4.81 at his Pro Day and he looks it on the field. He's out there calling signals. He's closer to standard ILB size at 232 lbs., maybe bigger since his Pro Day. Martini looks to be an exploratory exercise to figure out if he can back up Martinez. Can he be a Ryan reasonable facimile in the run game? Martinez-Martini. It all fits, right?

So far this plan, if that is the plan, does not look promising. I have no idea what plan B they could have in mind to back up Martinez other than to roll the dice with a Burks/Thomas combo. Maybe it is Biegel. He's smart. They move him around. But if that was plan B you'd think he'd be getting some snaps there by now.

Maybe they punt and sign Bowman after all. Maybe he's waiting for some desperation money.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Maybe they punt and sign Bowman after all. Maybe he's waiting for some desperation money.

I agree with everything you said.....and only quoted this last part, because ......GET IT DONE!

An injury to Martinez would be crippling IMO. Burks is a damn rookie, expecting him to start is asking a lot. Sliding Matthews next to him or putting Thomas, Martini or Beigel is just not a good plan either IMO.

Bowman won't be a Pro Bowler, but good god, they have the money, lets stop talking about Mack and sign him.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I agree with everything you said.....and only quoted this last part, because ......GET IT DONE!

An injury to Martinez would be crippling IMO. Burks is a damn rookie, expecting him to start is asking a lot. Sliding Matthews next to him or putting Thomas, Martini or Beigel is just not a good plan either IMO.

Bowman won't be a Pro Bowler, but good god, they have the money, lets stop talking about Mack and sign him.

Clearly Bowman's best days are behind him; he had a sub-par 2017 coming off the Achilles injury and he's on the wrong side of 30.

But as a base/short yardage guy and Martinez backup you gotta figure he'd be a lot better than the existing options. I don't go in much for all the free agent talk that goes on here. It generally falls in the "champagne tastes on a beer budget" category such as the Mack chatter. But Bowman would not be very expensive even with a deperation premium and there is a clear need.

Maybe I'm just biased from having my eyeballs permanently scarred and my dreams henceforth haunted from watching the Packers in 2015, with the unusually dreadful Nate Palmer overrunning holes or falling down in them.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Clearly Bowman's best days are behind him; he had a sub-par 2017 coming off the Achilles injury and he's on the wrong side of 30.

But as a base/short yardage guy and Martinez backup you gotta figure he'd be a lot better than the existing options. I don't go in much for all the free agent talk that goes on here. It generally falls in the "champagne tastes on a beer budget" category such as the Mack chatter. But Bowman would not be very expensive even with a deperation premium and there is a clear need.

I would guess that the Packer are hoping that one of the young guys will fill Ryan's shoes and another being a quality backup. Burks is showing flashes of potential, but still not that excited about him being a Game 1 starter so quick. As we get closer to the cut down and then Sept. 9th, I fully expect if there isn't some improvement in the final 2 preseason games at ILB, we will see someone like Bowman signed. For me, I would rather see that happen now, get him in camp and playing in at least one of the preseason games. This gives the Packers a much deeper rotation, as well as Burks more time to be ready. With Ryan's contract up at the end of this season, hopefully Burks will turn out to be our future starter alongside Martinez. I would be fine with Ryan being resigned, as a backup.

Bowman might scare some people due to a few disagreements he had with coaches, but I would take that over the defense getting gashed on the run consistently.

His combined tackles total is impressive:

2017 (15 games): 127
2016 (4 games) 35
2015 (16) 154
2013 (16) 145
2012 (16) 148
2011 (16) 143

Blake Martinez who everyone is labeling a tackling machine, had 144 last year.

 

[mongoosev]

kumerow reminds me of a lot of jordy minus the caveman look. *wipes tears* the way he dodged those defenders is what jordy was good at after he caught the ball. also has good hands and is fast as he77! graham's TD catch was awesome. the guy can get air, man! him and rod in the red zone is going to be devastating! alright, see you guys next season for more predictions.

 

[mongoosev]

Stud:

+ Kumerow still lacks the speed of Jordy. He's probably the second slowest of our WRs in 40yd dash stats. Didn't realize Geronimo had worse stats! But yeah, he looks like the most polished WR of the rookies. I expect him and MVS to make the cut.

he just looks slow running. LOL on a serious note. if you haven't, go watch the video of practice no. 7 on youtube showing some wr drills with kumerow. the way the guy jumps off that line and runs his routes is amazing! he makes the other receivers look slow.

 

[easyk83]

Stud:

+ Kumerow still lacks the speed of Jordy. He's probably the second slowest of our WRs in 40yd dash stats. Didn't realize Geronimo had worse stats! But yeah, he looks like the most polished WR of the rookies. I expect him and MVS to make the cut.

I think he's a little quicker than Jordy was but he doesn't have the long speed that Jordy used to have. He looked slow on that 82 yard tuddy, especially with the way that that backer was gaining on him. That being said Kumerow looks polished and confident out there, but how much of his production is just the result of a polished technically sound player playing against guys who wont be in the league this time next year?

 

[AKCheese]

+/- .15 in a shorts and tee shirt 40 time is meaningless

For one thing plays develope in the first 5-10 yards