Pittsburgh studs duds

BrokenArrow

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I saw him in on at least 3 drives and into the second quarter tonight. He was so ghost you thought he only played in one series :roflmao:

He played one full series and subbed in a few plays. BTW, this is preseason and you do know the Packers like to try to get the ball to the new guys as much as possible, right? The object is to evaluate the unknowns, not so much to win.
 

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Stud:

+ Kumerow still lacks the speed of Jordy.

Jordy ran the 40 at the combine 0.01 seconds faster than Kumerow did. He's probably faster now than Jordy is now. Jake's speed looked fine to me last night on that TD.
 

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Hundley has looked bad in preseason action in the past as well. And the comment wasn’t just about him. The entire passing offense has been consistently effective regardless of who is in at QB. I don’t think this means that the Packers are four deep with great quarterbacks, but *perhaps* (it is still preseason) this is an indication of Philbin having an impact.

It's preseason. Teams aren't putting defensive game plans together yet.
 

Jerellh528

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He played one full series and subbed in a few plays. BTW, this is preseason and you do know the Packers like to try to get the ball to the new guys as much as possible, right? The object is to evaluate the unknowns, not so much to win.

I would consider Geronimo largely an unknown.
 

PackFan2

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studs:
Kumerow: Kumerow doing Kumerow things. Reliable.
Gilbert: Quick and powerful. Stacking success.
Josh Jackson: using long arms to engage and take on WR. That pick six though! Happy to see him improving.
starting offense: looking amazing out there.
Rizer: looked great out there. great pocket/pressure presence.
Tonyan: Who? Well dang. Had a great game out there. Looked athletic in jump ball.

Duds:
Run defense: James Conner (who I was very high on during draft) just ran over everyone. Burks weakness really showed in run defense. Ez picking once they ran to his side and a lineman got their hands on him. To his defense Martinez and DL didnt do so hot either. HAHA + Brice's tackling and coverage was horrible.. The safeties really need to step it up.
Backup OL (especially Tackles): We already know... Sigh..
McCray: Didn't look so hot out there. I can see Lucas Patrick taking over his 'spot.'
EQ + Moore: Both didnt stand out. Drops.

Other discussions:
Longsnapper battle? I saw Triner the whole game. Heard the other kid has been inconsistent? Bret Goode still available?
Boyle hype train over yet?
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Run defense: James Conner (who I was very high on during draft) just ran over everyone.
I really liked Conner as well last year and was hoping we could draft him. That was the first time I saw him play in the NFL, but he looks as great as he did at Pitt. Steelers have quite the 2 headed running combo with him and Bell.
 

PikeBadger

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Jordy ran the 40 at the combine 0.01 seconds faster than Kumerow did. He's probably faster now than Jordy is now. Jake's speed looked fine to me last night on that TD.
Some guys actually run faster than their times when they are being chased. Jerry Rice was like that. Afraid of being caught.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Some guys actually run faster than their times when they are being chased. Jerry Rice was like that. Afraid of being caught.
So did the guy who stole my wallet!

My friend and I were walking down an alley, a mugger jumped out with a gun and demanded our wallets. Before I handed mine over, I took the $200 out that I had in it, handed it to my friend and said "Here is that 200 bucks I owe ya".
 
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HardRightEdge

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I don’t think it’s an overreaction to say that they might try to move Moore to the practice squad if he can’t get past these drops. It’s a crowded position. They practice squadded a 5th rounder last year. It’s been a consistent issue for him for almost a month now. If he can’t demonstrate the ability to catch, the chances he gets claimed are low.

Now I don’t think that will happen. I think he will figure things out well enough to get on the roster. But I don’t think it’s too strong to say that he might lose his spot if he doesn’t.
Let's recap a few things and break down Moore's performace so far, in detail.

Against the Titans, Moore had 3 catches on 9 targets for 27 yards according to the ESPN box score. He missed on a tough diving ball early and then there was the wide open deep ball drop, the latter an especially bad look. James Jones had the same problem, dropping several of those balls over a couple of years and they stuck with him. In Jones' case, it was so bad I thought he needed to get his eyes checked. You don't throw away a guy who gets that kind of separation, which Moore also showed on his play deep ball drop. Moore and the young Jones have a positive similarity I've perceived. While they don't have/had that 5th. gear/long speed of a pre-ACL Nelson, they have/had that 3rd./4th. gear burst that CBs have/had trouble reacting to. It's why Moore got that separation on the deep ball and it's why PIT corners were trailing and grabbing.

So, lets consider a some details taken taken from the espn.com play-by-play from the Titans game that do not show up in the box score, in case anybody forgot about these plays:

1st & 10 at GB 36
(8:08 - 2nd) B.Hundley pass incomplete deep left to J.Moore. PENALTY on TEN-K.Reed, Defensive Pass Interference, 28 yards, enforced at GB 36 - No Play.

4th & 2 at TEN 3
(8:02 - 3rd) (Shotgun) D.Kizer pass incomplete short left to J.Moore. PENALTY on TEN-R.Gafford, Defensive Pass Interference, 2 yards, enforced at TEN 3 - No Play.

Against the Steelers, Moore had zero catches on 2 targets according to the ESPN box score . I believe that was supposed to be 3 targets, with another play where Boyle threw way behind Moore running the same route as the one noted below. We don't know who made the mistake there. Let's call it 0 for 3. The first 2 were these so-called "drops". The first was clearly a pass interference no-call. It's kinda tough to catch a ball if one of your arms is hooked. The second was borderline. He was hooked again, but in my opinion he was hand checking too late into the catch. But we also have to consider the following which was a terrific route with separation.

3rd & 9 at PIT 39
(5:56 - 3rd) (Shotgun) T.Boyle pass short middle to J.Moore to PIT 21 for 18 yards (M.Thomas, N.Berhe). Penalty on GB-A.Judd, Offensive Pass Interference, declined. PENALTY on GB-J.Spriggs, Illegal Use of Hands, 10 yards, enforced at PIT 39 - No Play.

He's been watching Adams. He had that Adams chop step against press coming off the line then sudden burst inside, leaving that guy in his exhaust, then showing good confidence at the ball in the danger zone. Thanks, Judd. Thanks, Spriggs. Yeah, lets hold on a quick slant. Entirely unnecessary. From a Moore evaluation standpoint, I give him 1 catch on 4 targets for 18 yards.

So, lets rolli it altogether for these two games using my Pittsburgh adjustments and see what we've got:

- 4 catches on 13 targets for 45 yards. Yeah, he's not making anybody's fantasy team on those numbers, if anybody should care about that. They should not.
- Including the two actual defensive interferance calls, his targets come up to 15.
- Of 15 throws coming his way, he's drawn 2 INT flags against the Titans, drew another clear interferance with no flag against Pittsburgh, drew a second borderline interference which I grade as a Davminus for arm jousting too late into the route. Nonetheless, that corner was trailing and felt compelled to hook him. And he smoked a corner on that deep ball that he dropped.
- It's probably escaped the notice of most posters, but Moore has been out there blocking on kickoffs. That makes sense. We saw an enthusiastic run blocker in his college tape. However, in that role, he drew a holding flag in the Titans game and a block-in-the-back flag in the Pittsburgh game, things I did not notice until going through the ESPN play-by-plays.

Here are my takeawys so far:

- The first question you have to ask yourself is why, on 15 throws, did corners interfere 4 times, one kind of mutual? And how was it he smoked that corner on the deep ball? In terms of route running and separation, this is no Deangelo Yancey. For my money, Moore's signature college highlight play is at 2:55 in the following link: [
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] Yancy can't run that route in that way except in his dreams. That's another Davante Adams suddeness point of comparison.
- There's only one way Moore gets cut with the intent to put him on the practice squad. He'd have to be told he has a bright future and they pay him more than the PS $130,000 minimum or whatever the exact figure is. I'm pretty sure one the other 31 will make at least a strong PS pitch where he may see an earlier path to the field in that organization.
- He needs to clean up that special teams play if he wants to get on the game day roster.
- I'm more concered with his emotional maturity at this point than the drops. A pre-draft interview had a large dose of false bravado. During OTA's he said he hoped to contribute "some day". C'mon man. And then there was the excuse-making over the scout team flash cards after Rodgers' criticism. C'mon man, don't you know that was a test? They want to see focus and processing speed. And when you make a mistake, don't hang your head. Forget about it. A short memory is required. Study Alexander's and Jackson's way of doing business. Few words, no excuses, shut up and play, and get a short memory.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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J'Mon's upside will keep him on the 53. I would be shocked if the Packers try getting him to the PS and even more shocked if he made it there before another team scooped him up. What rookie WR looks great right out of the gate? I do like Kumerow more and more, but remember, this is Jakes 4th year in the league.

<insert Collective breath> J'Mon is going to be just fine.
 
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AmishMafia

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Foolish to give up on JMon so soon, but he hasn't made the plays when he has the opportunities. I am greatly encouraged by his route running, he just needs to work on making the catch.
 

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@HardRightEdge That's a nice breakdown and please understand that I don't think Moore will be cut (and of course I hope he isn't). I'm merely saying that he is placing himself in danger of it with this issue, which has pervaded most of his camp and not just the two preseason games (from what I've read). In a worst case scenario, if the problem persisted or got worse, I don't think cutting him would necessarily be throwing him away and I think the chances are good that he would land on the practice squad (In this hypothetical where he hasn't been able to catch for 6 weeks, I'm not sure who is adding him to their active roster). What concerns me is that this issue has dogged him. He was benched in 2016 for focus drops. He responded well. I hope he can recover in this case as well, because he is exceptionally talented and, like you say, a terrific athlete despite lacking that long speed gear.

On the whole, I think he makes the team and I'm guessing it's in large part to him getting this issue turned around. But it's gone on long enough as this point to be notable.
 

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I don't know what's going to happen to Moore. Right now 2 guys are playing their way into a roster spot. MSV and Kumerow. There's a spot or 2 left for someone else to grab.
 

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STUDS:
AR12...duh
Jimmy G: He is going to score 15 times this year I bet...IMPOSSIBLE matchup in the RZ
Reggie G: I have been on his hype train since last year and sure as heck ain't jumping off now! I know he was doing some of his work against lesser opponents but he makes the plays when they present themselves. I was watching closely to see if he just went with the speed rush around the edge and to my excitement, he didn't. One of his sacks came on a step out, stutter, back to the middle and was on Rudolph before he could do anything about it. We have ourselves a hungry, motivated edge rusher folks!
Kuuuuudrow: If this kid doesn't make the cut I give up. Size, speed, hands, smarts, AR12's trust and the respect of the vets...Nuff said
Tonyan: Intriguing prospect to say the least. Impressive TD grab and did a nice job drawing the PI in the EZ as well. Plays with a little swag as well which I dig.
Josh Jackson: Sticky coverage and showed off his ball skills on the P6
T-Will38: The old man still has it baby!
Old Man Crosby: New year, same MC

DUDS:
Pretty much the entire backup OL crew...we better get that buttoned up and quick BC you know BBulaga is going down at some point. Honestly.
CCHD: It appears he is still taking the "tackling is optional" approach this yr...GGRRRRRRRR
The 3 Drafted WR's: Mostly non-existent last night. It happens but Moore is becoming a real concern with his hands or lack thereof.
Run D: We've beaten this dead horse enough I think.
The Punter: Clean it up, kid.

All together, I was happy. We should be a really good team this year with a chance at winning it all! G P G !
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Again, I haven't watched the second half of the game last night, but Rollins looked halfway decent fielding and returning punts in the first half. It sounds like Jackson did the same in the second half? In any case, I think Trevor Davis has to be wondering if his job is very secure at this point. If Kumerow and MVS keep progressing, they lock down the 4 and 5 spots, that leaves probably one spot and I don't see the Packers wanting to try and sneak both Moore and EQ onto the PS, one or both would get scooped up IMO.

I know some have mentioned keeping 7 WR's and I don't see that happening with Jimmy G being a hybrid TE/WR. Unless that 7th spot is for Davis.
 

SUGAMAN44

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Hey everyone: My thoughts. I agree with a lot of the comments.

Studs:
Kumerow- kind of reminds me of Jordy, not sure about speed, but the way he plays.
Gilbert: he looked like he was making a impact every single play.
Starting Pass defense: It held agianst the pass pretty well. Had the first pick right off the bat. contested almost every throw.
Willaims: good to have that experience.
TE Tunyan- he was making plays with his opportunities.
Jackson- gonna be a stud, always makes it difficult.
Offense- would love to see offense come out and score all the time.
Jimmy G- this guy is gonna be hard to defend.

Duds:
first String Run defense: Line Backers and D-line- Did they get any pressure at all on the quarterback? No pass rush whatsoever.
Missed Tackles: 1st string defense missing way toooo many tackles.
Offensive Line 1st string: didn't look good in my opinion, may have not given up many sacks, but qb's looked pressured almost every play. I don't feel good about the line or the depth.
Rush offense: looked weak, i think we only had one run over 10 yards, rest was barely any pick-up.
Josh Jones- was rooting for him, i like him, but didn't seem to attack or know where to be.
Matthews: gilber would have shown him up. didn't see much from him.


Only good free agent pick up so far seems to be Jimmy Graham.

My prediction from what im seeing so far is on the lines of 9 and 6. I think Minnesota defense will make it way to difficult for our offensive line. But i have high hopes that it is better.

I get to go to my first Lambeu Game on season opener. Looking forward to it big time. I'm from the silicon valley. and never even been to Wisconsin. gonna be a blast.
 
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HardRightEdge

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@HardRightEdge That's a nice breakdown and please understand that I don't think Moore will be cut (and of course I hope he isn't). I'm merely saying that he is placing himself in danger of it with this issue, which has pervaded most of his camp and not just the two preseason games (from what I've read). In a worst case scenario, if the problem persisted or got worse, I don't think cutting him would necessarily be throwing him away and I think the chances are good that he would land on the practice squad (In this hypothetical where he hasn't been able to catch for 6 weeks, I'm not sure who is adding him to their active roster). What concerns me is that this issue has dogged him. He was benched in 2016 for focus drops. He responded well. I hope he can recover in this case as well, because he is exceptionally talented and, like you say, a terrific athlete despite lacking that long speed gear.

On the whole, I think he makes the team and I'm guessing it's in large part to him getting this issue turned around. But it's gone on long enough as this point to be notable.
I mentioned before that St. Brown had 2 drops in the Steeler game which nobody seems to want to acknowledge. And to my eye he plays soft.

So, regardless of my previous analysis which is admittedly a bit hard to digest, my Cliffs Notes early call is as follows subject to minor adjustment with 2 more outings to go:

1) Adams
2) Cobb
3) and 4) Allison and Kumerow, not necessarily in that order. Probably Allison to start week #1 in deference to experience. Kumerow might steal that job eventually if he gets enough chances in 4-wide or as an injury replecement. Allison's become a pro, but he's simply not all that productive.
5) and 6) Valdez-Scantling and Moore, not necessarily in that order. Which gets on the game day roster will depend on special teams value. Maybe both, but I kind of doubt. There are too many bases to cover with 46 guys. Moore is starting to show slot utility, with a couple of nice inside routes. That could also be a difference maker on game day as Cobb's injury backup.
7) St. Brown or Davis depending on whether the coaches are satisfied with other returner options replacing Davis, which at this point I think is quite plausible. They're looking hard at finding one, and Rollins or Jackson look at least adequate. I'm thinking Jackson got a look because Rollins is on the bubble in a crowded game day CB group. Punt-returner-only does not look like a path for either Davis or Rollins. Davis might save himself if he's seen as the best option on kickoff returns; nobody is standing out in that role.

One thing I alluded to in my Moore breakdown, but forgot to elaborate on, is an adjustment he needs to make in the NFL game. In the college tape, when in contact with defenders for contested balls, we see a lot of back shoulder and jump ball lobs. With a couple of the so-call drops in these two games where he has position but the defender in contact (the diving miss in week 1, the second almost-pass-interference in week 2), the balls are lower trajectory / higher velocity than those college softballs. This is the NFL where what counts for separation is a smaller window with a faster ball. There seems to be a simple technique/timing issue...he needs to be looking for the ball sooner. I think he's working off the defender past the sell-by moment, with the ball coming up on him faster than he expects, ergo the tough catch is not made. He's a quick-twitch guy with a lot of quickness in his processing so I think he can make that adjustment in time.

It is my opinion there is too much raw material in Moore and enough good technique to go with the bad to at least earn him a roster spot even if he doesn't make the game day roster.

The only difference between a practice squad player and a 53 man roster guy who doesn't suit up on game day is you're paying him more and protecting him from being signed away because of his upside. From what I've seen so far, drops and psudo-drops notwithstanding, Moore qualifies in this group.
 
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AmishMafia

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I get to go to my first Lambeu Game on season opener. Looking forward to it big time. I'm from the silicon valley. and never even been to Wisconsin. gonna be a blast.
Enjoy the pilgrimage! Try the brats and the beer. Not sure if word has gotten out of Wisconsin about that.

You know, you can compare Kumrow to WRs who aren't just white.

"Jimmy G", is that a thing? If not, it should be. He looks to be a big thing this season. Hopefully Wilkerson will do better as he plays some more. Not sure he has had a lot of snaps.
 

SUGAMAN44

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Enjoy the pilgrimage! Try the brats and the beer. Not sure if word has gotten out of Wisconsin about that.

You know, you can compare Kumrow to WRs who aren't just white.

"Jimmy G", is that a thing? If not, it should be. He looks to be a big thing this season. Hopefully Wilkerson will do better as he plays some more. Not sure he has had a lot of snaps.


Yeah i could compare to other guys, just reminds me of Nelson. And the Beer and Brats will be flowing for sure. Dad is a bears fan. so that will be interesting.
 
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