Improving the Defense for 2017....How and Who?

[Dantés]

Well you can do what you want but I can still think the moves don't make sense. We have 3 young ilb who showed either a good amount of improvement (Ryan and thomas) or moments where they definitely belonged (Martinez). Why spend a lot on Hightower or a decent amount on a somewhat declining player like Kendricks when that money could be much better used at two other positions. Ryan Thomas and Martinez all performed better than our three returning cbs. And at Olb right now all we have is an aging, Oft-injured and overpriced Matthews and Fakrell.

1. It's a long offseason. There's plenty of time to talk about all the various positions and avenues of improvement.


2. While we might identify the most pressing needs, the league doesn't always accomodate those needs with stellar options. I'd rather they spend on a near elite ILB like Hightower if he was available over a mediocre OLB just to say that they addressed the bigger need. At the end of the day, blue chip talent will have a bigger impact than anything else.

 

[bigbubbatd]

1. It's a long offseason. There's plenty of time to talk about all the various positions and avenues of improvement.


2. While we might identify the most pressing needs, the league doesn't always accomodate those needs with stellar options. I'd rather they spend on a near elite ILB like Hightower if he was available over a mediocre OLB just to say that they addressed the bigger need. At the end of the day, blue chip talent will have a bigger impact than anything else.

I understand number 2 but if the pass rush and cbs don't get better Hightower even as good as he is is wasted on this team. I would much rather spend Hightower money on a young corner like bouye.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Given the needs at CB and OLB, I wouldn't be a fan of spending a lot of money on a FA ILB. However, I think the position could use some depth and competition. I am not fully sold on Thomas, although he is a Exclusive Rights Free Agent, I imagine he will be back to compete. Martinez and Ryan might be the future at ILB, but a mid tier vet or a mid to late round pick at the position for depth, would be wise.

 

[Dantés]

I understand number 2 but if the pass rush and cbs don't get better Hightower even as good as he is is wasted on this team. I would much rather spend Hightower money on a young corner like bouye.

I would rather spend on a good corner or pass rusher than a good ILB. But I think it's extreme to say that a talent of Hightower's caliber would be of no effect.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I would rather spend on a good corner or pass rusher than a good ILB. But I think it's extreme to say that a talent of Hightower's caliber would be of no effect.

I totally agree with you, but with the salary cap restraints, I don't think it would be prudent to spend big money on the position. If the defense was rock solid at CB and OLB, Hightower might be someone you look at to improve the defense even more.

When you don't have any windows on your house, you better buy those, before you start shopping for drapes.

 

[Dantés]

I totally agree with you, but with the salary cap restraints, I don't think it would be prudent to spend big money on the position. If the defense was rock solid at CB and OLB, Hightower might be someone you look at to improve the defense even more.

When you don't have any windows on your house, you better buy those, before you start shopping for drapes.

I think we look at it differently. The defense, more than any one position, lacks playmakers. Now of course you would ideally want to sign those guys at the most pressing positions which is why Gilmore and Johnson are at the top of my list. But sometimes the market doesn't accommodate plan A. In that situation, a guy like Hightower would be a great consolation. And he wouldn't be superfluous either. It isn't as though our ILB's are so solid that there wouldn't be a huge difference.

 

[Mondio]

I can't imagine Hightower is set free anyway. Though he and White probably had more to do with the patriots Victory coupled with Atlanta just collapsing, more than any other player or coach on that team.

 

[Packer96]

TT won't pick the right players to draft, then we turn them over to Dom and MM so it probably doesn't matter who we pick.

 

[Dantés]

I can't imagine Hightower is set free anyway. Though he and White probably had more to do with the patriots Victory coupled with Atlanta just collapsing, more than any other player or coach on that team.

This is true. I'm more arguing on principle. I'd rather they spend big on a top shelf player even if it isn't the #1 need than spend on a mediocre player just to say they addressed the perceived top need. Though of course the ideal would be to bring in a great player at the most critical spot.

 

[Dantés]

TT won't pick the right players to draft, then we turn them over to Dom and MM so it probably doesn't matter who we pick.

Why so sure of that? He's one of the best draft GM's in the game over his time in GB.

 

[yooperpackfan]

Why so sure of that? He's one of the best draft GM's in the game over his time in GB.

I certainly disagree.
Take Aaron Rodgers out of the equation and Thompson's drafting has built an 8-8 team at best.

 

[Dantés]

I certainly disagree.
Take Aaron Rodgers out of the equation and Thompson's drafting has built an 8-8 team at best.

I think comparing his draft record to what's typical around the league speaks for itself. I totally get frustration with him over not using free agency. I share it. But criticisms of his draft ability over the course of his tenure is misguided.

By the way, you take almost any of these teams in the NFL with high priced franchise quarterbacks and "take those quarterbacks" out of the equation and the teams are significantly worse. That's not really much of an indictment.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I think we look at it differently. The defense, more than any one position, lacks playmakers. Now of course you would ideally want to sign those guys at the most pressing positions which is why Gilmore and Johnson are at the top of my list. But sometimes the market doesn't accommodate plan A. In that situation, a guy like Hightower would be a great consolation. And he wouldn't be superfluous either. It isn't as though our ILB's are so solid that there wouldn't be a huge difference.

I don't think we are looking at it that much differently. I agree, you need playmakers on defense, however you need a solid 11 starters as well as some depth. We don't currently have that at CB and most likely won't at OLB either. While neither Ryan and Martinez are pro bowl caliber at this point, who is to say they may not become one? They both have shown talent and their youth gives them the potential to keep getting better. I think you have to let their skills play out and see what happens. Bring Hightower in and one of them sits and meanwhile, you have spent a good portion of your cap on a position that probably didn't need it and in the process, left yourself 2 positions you are trying to fill with current players, draft choices or mid grade FA's.

 

[Dantés]

I don't think we are looking at it that much differently. I agree, you need playmakers on defense, however you need a solid 11 starters as well as some depth. We don't currently have that at CB and most likely won't at OLB either. While neither Ryan and Martinez are pro bowl caliber at this point, who is to say they may not become one? They both have shown talent and their youth gives them the potential to keep getting better. I think you have to let their skills play out and see what happens. Bring Hightower in and one of them sits and meanwhile, you have spent a good portion of your cap on a position that probably didn't need it and in the process, left yourself 2 positions you are trying to fill with current players, draft choices or mid grade FA's.

Yeah we aren't that far apart.

 

[bigbubbatd]

I would rather spend on a good corner or pass rusher than a good ILB. But I think it's extreme to say that a talent of Hightower's caliber would be of no effect.

I said he would be wasted not that he would have no effect. May not seem different to you but it is to me

 

[Dantés]

I said he would be wasted not that he would have no effect. May not seem different to you but it is to me

Yeah I don't see how that's different.

 

[bigbubbatd]

Yeah I don't see how that's different.

On a team that is getting picked apart through the air a really good ILB is not going to be a huge help. Hightower won't help cover cbs or get to the qb frequently. That means to me his talents will be wasted to an extent on this team. Just like an elite rb could be wasted on a team that never chooses to run

Again I think Hightower is very good just don't think we get anywhere near his value unless we upgrade the other two positions as well. Nfl teams find your weak spots and exploit them.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Yeah I don't see how that's different.

D'Qwell Jackson was released by the Colts. Mid range ILB FA that probably has some tread left on his tires. How would you feel about him instead of Hightower? His PED suspension would concern me, but if you are looking for a mid range veteran to add experience and depth at ILB, there you go.

 

[PackerDNA]

You continue to ignore the league's salary cap. Because of it the Packers aren't able to sign countless high price free agents but have to fill out the bottom of the roster with players like you mentioned.



Kendricks never performed up to his draft status and in my opinion wouldn't present a major upgrade over the inside linebackers currently on the roster.

The Packers should have drafted his brother last season instead of Randall though.

And once again, someone takes a post of mine, makes it their own , and decides for me what I really meant to say..
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm doing math, within the parameters of how much we have, and how much more we can create using the tools available.
No ****ing where did I say or advocate signing countless high priced free agents. And even on the bottom part of the roster, you can do better than many of the turds and wastes of cap and roster space we have; some of whom we bring back for 3 and 4 years.

 

[Packer96]

Why so sure of that? He's one of the best draft GM's in the game over his time in GB.

Arod fell to us, he didn't go get him. How long since we have had a stud ILBer? Lombardi? We go into next year with an OLine a year older, mid pack edge pass rushers, our best receiver will be 31 and a rebuilt knee. ILB that can barely keep up with OLinemen let alone TE's. We beat up the NFC Central year after year and think we are a SB contender year after year, we aren't, with Aaron freaking Rodgers. Without Arod this staff are position coaches at best.

 

[Dantés]

D'Qwell Jackson was released by the Colts. Mid range ILB FA that probably has some tread left on his tires. How would you feel about him instead of Hightower? His PED suspension would concern me, but if you are looking for a mid range veteran to add experience and depth at ILB, there you go.

I'm not interested in Jackson. I think he's done. He wasn't good in Indy, and his PED suspension tells me that he's trying to stave off what he knows to be the end. Mid level FA depth would be fine, but that wouldn't be my guy.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm not interested in Jackson. I think he's done. He wasn't good in Indy, and his PED suspension tells me that he's trying to stave off what he knows to be the end. Mid level FA depth would be fine, but that wouldn't be my guy.

Indy seems to feel the same as you do, at least at his contract price. But I am hoping TT is keeping his eye out, which he probably is, for guys like Jackson who may not be big names at big prices, but are free agents due to big contracts being purged. These are the vet players you need to round out your team for depth and experience. I would take someone like him, at the right price, over an UDFA or late round pick that ends up contributing nothing and was only kept around because they were "cheap".

 

[yooperpackfan]

I think comparing his draft record to what's typical around the league speaks for itself. I totally get frustration with him over not using free agency. I share it. But criticisms of his draft ability over the course of his tenure is misguided.

By the way, you take almost any of these teams in the NFL with high priced franchise quarterbacks and "take those quarterbacks" out of the equation and the teams are significantly worse. That's not really much of an indictment.

There are certainly a number of teams with high priced quarterbacks who just aren't very good, but there are only 1 or 2 other teams with quarterbacks comparable to Aaron Rodgers.
New England is one of those teams and they did fine without Brady over the 1st four games.
The Packers were 4-6 with Rodgers, imagine what we would have been without Rodgers.
That's a clear indictment of Thompson's poor personnel decisions.

 

[Packer Brother]

Arod fell to us, he didn't go get him. How long since we have had a stud ILBer? Lombardi? We go into next year with an OLine a year older, mid pack edge pass rushers, our best receiver will be 31 and a rebuilt knee. ILB that can barely keep up with OLinemen let alone TE's. We beat up the NFC Central year after year and think we are a SB contender year after year, we aren't, with Aaron freaking Rodgers. Without Arod this staff are position coaches at best.

Patriots have Gronk. Panthers have Kuchley. Seahawks have Sherman, Thomas, Chancellor. Falcons have Julio. Cowboys have Zek & Lee. Giants have Collins who will be a stud & OBJ. Steelers have Brown & Bell. Chiefs have Kelce. Broncos have Miller. Raiders have Mack.

These are all contending/ Playoff teams who have at least one great player besides the QB ( Some of those teams don't even have a " great" QB.). Other than A.R, the Packers don't have an" elite" player. Nelson was the closest. I fear he's on the downswing. Finley could've been that player without injuries.

This is a 2-4 win team minus AR.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The 2016 version of Kendricks isn't an upgrade over what we have, but at his best as a 3-4 ILB under Billy Davis he was way better than anything we currently have (assuming Ryan doesn't take a huge leap forward). He has elite speed for the position to play sideline to sideline. And he's a missile when it comes to shooting gaps and blitzing the QB. The guy created negative plays. He was one of the most effective blitzers in the league before he was converted to 4-3 WILL. His cover skills also used to be pretty serviceable.

In trading for him, you'd be rolling the dice that he returns to form in a defense that's a better fit for him. But that risk and the contract could mean that the trade compensation is pretty cheap. I'm not married to the idea, but I think it has potential. People often lament that the Packers don't take advantage of the trade market like the Patriots. This feels like that kind of move-- pick up a young, underperforming player who you know you can put back into position to succeed. The risk is that you'd be financially obligated to keep him for at least two years if he doesn't work out. But once 2019 rolls around, he can be released without much dead money.

Once again I'm relying on PFF to provide those numbers as I don't have the time to closely watch 32 teams play but according to them Kendricks only had one good season in 2014 and was below average for the rest of his NFL career. Therefore I'm not interested in trading for him at all.

Why so sure of that? He's one of the best draft GM's in the game over his time in GB.

While that's true for offensive player it's absolutely incorrect on the other side of the ball.

D'Qwell Jackson was released by the Colts. Mid range ILB FA that probably has some tread left on his tires. How would you feel about him instead of Hightower? His PED suspension would concern me, but if you are looking for a mid range veteran to add experience and depth at ILB, there you go.

I'm absolutely not interested in the Packers signing Jackson. Perry Riley or Zach Brown may be decent players to pick up if the team decides to improve the position via free agency.

And once again, someone takes a post of mine, makes it their own , and decides for me what I really meant to say..
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm doing math, within the parameters of how much we have, and how much more we can create using the tools available.
No ******* where did I say or advocate signing countless high priced free agents. And even on the bottom part of the roster, you can do better than many of the turds and wastes of cap and roster space we have; some of whom we bring back for 3 and 4 years.

Over the past week you have been advocating for the Packers to sign Chandler Jones, Dont'a Hightower and one of the top cornerbacks available in free agency. Unfortunately the Packers don't have enough cap space to pull off all of that moves.