Fire MM!

[GleefulGary]

Probably the biggest fault of MM is that he isn’t elite at scheming players open. He’s not elite at using unique weapons. You have to be a certain “type”. Thus, the iso routes. Boooo. But it does work for Rodgers.

Rodgers certainly isn’t without fault though. He holds onto the ball too long. He wants to win the game with every pass. He won’t throw to open WR’s that he doesn’t “trust”. Which is BS btw.

Rodgers seems to hate to throw the ball away quickly, but you want him in McVay’s offense?! Lol. When Rodgers went ham on the Bears throwing short and fast, do you think that was just quick installed at halftime? Are you stupid? They were the same plays, the same routes, Rodgers just chose to get the ball out quickly because he HAD to. I wish he would choose to do it because it is better. Just doesn’t make him look as good.

 

[Packer Brother]

That would put the Packers at 13-2-1, which would all but certainly give the Packers a 1st round bye.

Depending on how that divisional game would shake out (circumstances), I'd say it's possible he would get let go.

Let's say it's a repeat of the Giants playoff game in 2011.

 

[PackAttack12]

Let's say it's a repeat of the Giants playoff game in 2011.

In that scenario, he's gone. I think Gute would go out and get his "own" guy.

 

[PikeBadger]

I’m in the camp that all of them share the blame. Coach, QB, Receivers and Line. Consistent execution makes everyone look better.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I’m in the camp that all of them share the blame. Coach, QB, Receivers and Line. Consistent execution makes everyone look better.

I would add, if one or more of those breaks down, you don't perform well. The team that can get all of those firing on all cylinders consistently, are the great offenses.

Sundays game with the Bills saw breakdowns by all 4 of those, although the line played much better.

 

[pacmaniac]

I think this is very simple.

Sean McVay is an offensive genius. He’s not normal. Of course I wish MM was more like him, but it’s undetstandable he isn’t.

Andy Reid is an offensive genius.

MM is a good offensive coach. He’s not a genius, he’s not perfect, but he is good. I wish he used players more creatively, I wish he wouldn’t rely on ISO routes so much. But the idea that he’s some moron is ridiculous. He’s not McVay, nobody is. But I see people in here wishing we used two QB’s on a play. Idiots. Teams with good QB’s don’t do that. Just because it’s cool, and it worked once, doesn’t mean it’s smart.

I listened to MM's Monday press conference, and he said they pay attention to the new things the Rams and everyone else is doing. He said there is not really any difference in schemes between what they are doing and what the Packers are doing. He said it's just variations on the same scheme, and that it's a matter of execution - the Rams are just great at executing those schemes.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Lol, I'm pretty sure that's the last reason anyone wants him fired, unless of course Pettine doesn't hack it, but I don't tie anyone's stock as a former HC to their DC or OC roles (case in point being Josh McDaniels, Jim Schwartz, Rod Marinelli, Todd Haley etc.)

I'd say it's probably more because he kept Pettine's predecessor around a little too long - This I'll say is true

Second, a lot of posters here peddle around fiction that he's too conservative and unimagitive in his play calling - This I'll definitely say is definitely a total fabrication made by Madden enthusiasts

Third is that he has his favorites on our roster and gets stubborn with playing awful players - This I'll say is true as evidenced by the god awful play of Hundley, Trevor Davis, and in previous years James Starks and Datone Jones.

Now ... I'm not at the point of calling his shortcomings fireable offenses right now, and I really don't like any potential coaching candidates available to replace MM right now. But I'll still call out bad when I see it.

I think the third point you make is the biggest problem with MM, IMO. He sticks with players way, way too long. Your list is one of the best I’ve seen. This season, with a healthy and productive Aaron Jones ready, he starts Jamaal Williams for the first three series. I’ll argue his play calling gets too conservative when they’re playing with a lead, but haven’t noticed that so far this year.

 

[Heyjoe4]

The Packers can score points and win with this offense because Rodgers is a freak show and he has a strong supporting cast. But the system is stale. The intriguing thing about it is that McCarthy isn’t going to get fired unless he fails with a functional Rodgers. And it’s hard to fail with a functional Rodgers. Plus I do think McCarthy is good at other aspects of the job. The team doesn’t quit on him. A gimpy Rodgers brings another interesting layer to the season.

Well you’ve noticed the Catch-22 in this situation. A healthy Rodgers pretty much guarantees a 10 win or more season and a playoff position. Hard to fire a HC after that. To me, that’s not good enough with a first-ballot HOF QB. So unless they come home with the Lombardi trophy next February, this will be MM’s last season in GB. Who will replace him? I don’t know, but anyone other than MM will do. I know everyone is talking about the unstoppable Rams right now, but November and December are true tests for SB-bound teams. That said, GB is not prepared to beat a team like the Rams right now. Here’s hoping some things change and the Packers stay in the hunt until real football starts in November.

 

[Heyjoe4]

He is in over his head.

He does seem to be in over his head, and that’s been noticeable for a number of years. I mean, if Rodgers isn’t a Packer, MM is a QB coach somewhere, probably in college, or at a really good high school....

 

[Heyjoe4]

Just out of curiosity, what did Allison do wrong to be mentioned as a dud???

I don’t think Allison has had a bad game this year. If anything, he’s improved as a route runner. He has the drops, but that seems to have infected all of their WRs so far this year.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Just out of curiosity, what did Allison do wrong to be mentioned as a dud???

Oh and Cobb didn’t play.......

 

[Heyjoe4]

I'm done with McDouble McCarthy. He works hard but just is not a bright person. Spare me on the Rodgers can't change offenses at this point in his career, cut our losses with the last 11 years and find a new young guy.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/09/24/kentrell-brice-to-remain-packers-starter-at-safety/

I’m with ya. Brice has played poorly this year, but apparently not bad enough for MM. MM isn’t that bright, and he stays with guys far too long, as someone else pointed out.

 

[Mondio]

I think the third point you make is the biggest problem with MM, IMO. He sticks with players way, way too long. Your list is one of the best I’ve seen. This season, with a healthy and productive Aaron Jones ready, he starts Jamaal Williams for the first three series. I’ll argue his play calling gets too conservative when they’re playing with a lead, but haven’t noticed that so far this year.

He didn’t start Williams the first 3 series. He rotated all 3.

And for the 14th time. Jones has historically NOT been a durable back in his short career. He had problems staying on the field last year. And this year he missed a month with a hamstring injury and then was away from the team for 2 weeks serving a suspension.

You think it would have been smart to make him a workhorse 2 weeks into his return in game we never were in danger of losing?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Yes, not every situation is identical. The excuses for MM are myriad. Packers don't have a speedster to blow the top off a defense. Packers don't have an All-Pro RB like Kamara. Packers don't have a dominant TE like Kelce/Gronk. Well, that's what a great offensive mind is supposed to compensate for. The Packers DO have a great QB. The Packers DO have a good oline. The Packers DO have a great WR in Adams. The Packers DO have a good RB in Jones.

There aren't any excuses necessary for McCarthy and his play calling as the Packers have featured one of the best offenses in the league during his tenure. Unfortunately you don't understand that.

Well, when you don't read the context in which a comment is made I can understand why it might be confusing, so I'll summarize. One poster pointed out that the Packers WRs were getting open against the Bills while the Vikings WRs were not as succesful, and then used that as evidence that MM must be a great offensive coach. I pointed out that the Vikings main issue was that they couldn't block the Bills' dline while the Packers oline did a good job against the Bills. That's the context of why I pointed out that receivers getting open was due to the oline blocking long enough to throw the ball, not due to some great offensive scheme that got guys open. Hope that clears it up.

Once again, what's your point??? Are you criticizing McCarthy for not having a terrible offensive line???

Here's a scenario: Packers go 11-1 to finish the season. They then proceed to lay an egg in the first home division playoff game. Does MM return? In otherwords, is regular season success enough to save his job if we flame out in the postseason again?

I believe that the Packers will retain McCarthy if the team ends up making the playoffs.

In that scenario, he's gone. I think Gute would go out and get his "own" guy.

Gutekunst doesn't have the authority to fire McCarthy.

I don’t know, but anyone other than MM will do.

That's truly a ridiculous statement.

I don’t think Allison has had a bad game this year. If anything, he’s improved as a route runner. He has the drops, but that seems to have infected all of their WRs so far this year.

While I agree that overall Allison has performed at a high level this season it's not acceptable having three drops in a game like he had vs. the Bills on Sunday.

 

[PackAttack12]

Gutekunst doesn't have the authority to fire McCarthy.

Absolutely true, however I think ideally in the long term scope, if Gute is going to build this team the way that he wants to build it, he and Murphy will have consistent dialogue about all aspects of the football team.

Murphy is the guy that will ultimately pull the trigger, but I think Gute will have some influence in the decision. Of course assuming that the Packers underachieve. Which I certainly hope isn't the case.

 

[Dantés]

There aren't any excuses necessary for McCarthy and his play calling as the Packers have featured one of the best offenses in the league during his tenure. Unfortunately you don't understand that.



Once again, what's your point??? Are you criticizing McCarthy for not having a terrible offensive line???



I believe that the Packers will retain McCarthy if the team ends up making the playoffs.



Gutekunst doesn't have the authority to fire McCarthy.



That's truly a ridiculous statement.



While I agree that overall Allison has performed at a high level this season it's not acceptable having three drops in a game like he had vs. the Bills on Sunday.

As someone who has said (and still believes) that MM's offense has grown stale in recent seasons, I think it's important to note that execution has been the problem so far this year. I think there have actually been signs of innovation, it just hasn't clicked yet. If and when Rodgers gets healthy, I think we could see the GB offense blow up. I wouldn't be surprised to see a late season surge. People should be careful what they wish for when it comes to replacing McCarthy.

 

[PackAttack12]

People should be careful what they wish for when it comes to replacing McCarthy.

Yep.

It's going to be interesting to see how the narrative shifts if (when) Pettine has this defense on track to, at the very least, become a competent unit. The offense hasn't had that luxury in quite a long time. It's easy to look at current results and start pointing fingers, but we're only 4 games in and based on what I've seen, I like the foundation of this team.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

There aren't any excuses necessary for McCarthy and his play calling as the Packers have featured one of the best offenses in the league during his tenure. Unfortunately you don't understand that.



Once again, what's your point??? Are you criticizing McCarthy for not having a terrible offensive line???

When have I said the offense hasn't been elite? I've said that the offense has been elite because Rodgers is AMAZING at extending plays and throwing AMAZING passes into tight windows. I, unlike you, believe that a great offensive playcaller doesn't scheme up a gameplan that requires their QB to buy time with their legs and then throw balls into tight windows constantly. Yes, even the best playcaller is going to need their QB to make great throws, the Packers just rely on those tight throws more than the great offensive playcallers do.

Once again, please look at the context of the discussion. Once again, I was pointing out that the oline for the Packers is good and the oline for the Vikes is bad. The fact that Rodgers wasn't being pressured on almost half his snaps was the biggest difference in the Packers offense being effective against the Bills vs the Vikings offense; not MM's amazing offensive scheme to get WRs open. I hope that summary gives you the needed context.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

As someone who has said (and still believes) that MM's offense has grown stale in recent seasons, I think it's important to note that execution has been the problem so far this year. I think there have actually been signs of innovation, it just hasn't clicked yet. If and when Rodgers gets healthy, I think we could see the GB offense blow up. I wouldn't be surprised to see a late season surge. People should be careful what they wish for when it comes to replacing McCarthy.

Through a quarter of the season the Packers are 18th in scoring and 16th in yards. The freaking Ravens are ahead of the Packers in both categories (the Ravens put up 47 points against the Bills). Execution is also part of the coach's job and what, five more more dropped passes?, shouldn't be the difference between the Packers and the Ravens.

Being scared of who replaces MM isn't something that I'm particularly worried about, that Gute's job, he gets paid REALLY well for it. I'm not personally going to let fear of the unknown convince me to be satisfied with year-after-year of disappointment.

 

[PackAttack12]

When have I said the offense hasn't been elite? I've said that the offense has been elite because Rodgers is AMAZING at extending plays and throwing AMAZING passes into tight windows. I, unlike you, believe that a great offensive playcaller doesn't scheme up a gameplan that requires their QB to buy time with their legs and then throw balls into tight windows constantly. Yes, even the best playcaller is going to need their QB to make great throws, the Packers just rely on those tight throws more than the great offensive playcallers do.

Once again, please look at the context of the discussion. Once again, I was pointing out that the oline for the Packers is good and the oline for the Vikes is bad. The fact that Rodgers wasn't being pressured on almost half his snaps was the biggest difference in the Packers offense being effective against the Bills vs the Vikings offense; not MM's amazing offensive scheme to get WRs open. I hope that summary gives you the needed context.

Well lets be a little fair here...

At times, yes. Guys aren't getting open. But there are also many times where Rodgers has the easy check down, or the shorter route to go to, yet he opts to escape the pocket to look for the big play down the field.

It isn't always a breakdown or indictment of the scheme.

Through a quarter of the season the Packers are 18th in scoring and 16th in yards. The freaking Ravens are ahead of the Packers in both categories (the Ravens put up 47 points against the Bills). Execution is also part of the coach's job and what, five more more dropped passes?, shouldn't be the difference between the Packers and the Ravens.

Being scared of who replaces MM isn't something that I'm particularly worried about, that Gute's job, he gets paid REALLY well for it. I'm not personally going to let fear of the unknown convince me to be satisfied with year-after-year of disappointment.

The offense got fixed in 2016 after a slow start to the season because McCarthy changed the philosophy on offense. And yes, Rodgers starting playing at a higher level. The two go hand in hand. Early on, we were insistent on being a down the field, big play offense. When McCarthy starting incorporating shorter timing routes, the offense exploded.

 

[Dantés]

Through a quarter of the season the Packers are 18th in scoring and 16th in yards. The freaking Ravens are ahead of the Packers in both categories (the Ravens put up 47 points against the Bills). Execution is also part of the coach's job and what, five more more dropped passes?, shouldn't be the difference between the Packers and the Ravens.

Being scared of who replaces MM isn't something that I'm particularly worried about, that Gute's job, he gets paid REALLY well for it. I'm not personally going to let fear of the unknown convince me to be satisfied with year-after-year of disappointment.

There's an obvious response to this-- Rodgers has been playing on a bad knee. He appears to be getting a little better each week.

The bolded isn't a good argument to me. All GM's get paid really well to find winning coaches. Most coaches fail.

This is not to say that the Packers should be scared and thus never move on from MM. It's just to say that he's a good head coach, and that the offensive struggles so far this year aren't on him.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

When have I said the offense hasn't been elite? I've said that the offense has been elite because Rodgers is AMAZING at extending plays and throwing AMAZING passes into tight windows. I, unlike you, believe that a great offensive playcaller doesn't scheme up a gameplan that requires their QB to buy time with their legs and then throw balls into tight windows constantly. Yes, even the best playcaller is going to need their QB to make great throws, the Packers just rely on those tight throws more than the great offensive playcallers do.

Once again, please look at the context of the discussion. Once again, I was pointing out that the oline for the Packers is good and the oline for the Vikes is bad. The fact that Rodgers wasn't being pressured on almost half his snaps was the biggest difference in the Packers offense being effective against the Bills vs the Vikings offense; not MM's amazing offensive scheme to get WRs open. I hope that summary gives you the needed context.

Let's take a closer look at your claim that Rodgers has to make perfect throws into tight windows while McVay is able to scheme the Rams receivers wide open on every play.

Here's the average separation per target of both team's top three receivers from the defender covering them after four games (numbers from NFL's next gen stats):

Woods 3.5
Kupp 3.4
Cooks 2.8

Allison 3.4
Adams 3.1
Cobb 2.7

While the numbers are slightly better for the Rams it's far from being as lopsided as you want to make us think.

It should be obvious to everyone that it's essential to protect the quarterback to successfully throw the ball in the NFL. McCarthy and the coaching staff deserve credit for coming up with a scheme to give Rodgers enough time in the pocket vs. the Bills.

 

[Poppa San]

Woods 3.5
...
Woods 2.8

While twins would be awesome for them, I don't see two Woods on the roster. One be Cooks perchance?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

While twins would be awesome for them, I don't see two Woods on the roster. One be Cooks perchance?

My bad, Cooks is the one with an average separation of 2.8 yards. I edited my previous post to correct the mistake.

 

[Dantés]

I am not advocating for a mid-season firing, but yesterday confirmed to me what I've been thinking for a while-- Mike McCarthy and his offense have run their courses in Green Bay. This team is healthy, they have great personnel on offense, and they have the best of the best at the most important position, and scoring points often feels like pulling teeth. Mike Pettine's defense forced a top two NFL offense to punt five straight times to open that game and the offense came up with 10 points. That is totally unacceptable. It's pretty easy to look around the league and find offenses that are doing more than the Packers with less talent.

And this is not to say that our offensive struggles are 100% on McCarthy. Execution has also been a major issue at times this season. But the entire approach/system also isn't nearly as effective as it once was. The league has caught up to what MM/AR have been doing for years. That doesn't make McCarthy a bad coach-- that eventually happens to almost everyone. But he's run his course and I'm totally ready for them to move on.