Fire Joe Barry -- Updated -- he's gone

[gopkrs]

You nailed it Packer. We're kinda used to thinking these guys are mainly in it for the cash and to avoid ruining their lives via injury. But football is in their blood, and some have just played on teams where team really did come first, and that is largely a reflection of the coaching staff. Leaders know how to motivate their players.

I'm still in a wait and see mode. I think MLF probably deserves at least 2, maybe 3 years to prove he can succeed without without #12. I think it's fair to say we all want him to succeed. And Gluten is involved here as well. His future will depend on how well his drafts perform and any FA moves he makes.

Three negatives or uncertainties about MLF are: 1. Play calls 2. In game adjustments and 3. that Barry line/db/linebacker calls are not changed. imho

 

[Heyjoe4]

On Barry:

It's still very early in the season. With the youth on defense (esp. Wyatt, Walker, Slaton, LVN) and the guys returning or ramping up from injury (Gary, Stokes), there's a scenario where the defense makes a lot of progress over the course of the season.

I think he is getting blamed for a lot that isn't really his fault. For instance, Detroit's first TD drive, LaPorta snags a ball in tight coverage and Rasul just falls off him instead of making the tackle. Then Douglas bites on a pump fake, can't recover, falls down, and St. Brown is wide open for 6. I guarantee you that after that play, there were Packer fans the world over texting each other "fire Barry." But that's not on the coach; it's on the player. But fans, psychologically, really struggle to blame players for anything.

That's not to say it's all good on Barry's end. It isn't. On the second Detroit TD, the alignment basically invited the touchdown. You had Wyatt lined up as a 3T and Smith was a super wide 9. The C gap was a massive canyon even before the ball was snapped. The way the defense was deployed didn't even give them a chance.

My gut is still that they would move on from him after this season. And I think that's for the best. Barry strikes me as a guy who, at his best, can give you back exactly what you put in. He is never going to elevate his players and make them more than the sum of their parts. But it's not a huge deal, given that this is a developmental/assessment season anyways.

Good perspective. My biggest complaint with Barry is how he deploys the secondary. They rarely, if ever, play ,man at the LOS. They usually play a very soft zone and QBs complete short, underneath passes all game long. Even on 3rd and long, the corners will back up to the first down marker and usually allow completions beyond or just short of a first down. Most teams are going for it on fourth and short, and for good reason.

I have nom idea why he continues to play soft zone. I suppose one reason is to not give up big plays, but that's not working so well either.

 

[Dantés]

Good perspective. My biggest complaint with Barry is how he deploys the secondary. They rarely, if ever, play ,man at the LOS. They usually play a very soft zone and QBs complete short, underneath passes all game long. Even on 3rd and long, the corners will back up to the first down marker and usually allow completions beyond or just short of a first down. Most teams are going for it on fourth and short, and for good reason.

I have nom idea why he continues to play soft zone. I suppose one reason is to not give up big plays, but that's not working so well either.

You can’t play man at the LOS against condensed sets and bunches. It don’t work.

 

[Poppa San]

Good perspective. My biggest complaint with Barry is how he deploys the secondary. They rarely, if ever, play ,man at the LOS. They usually play a very soft zone and QBs complete short, underneath passes all game long. Even on 3rd and long, the corners will back up to the first down marker and usually allow completions beyond or just short of a first down. Most teams are going for it on fourth and short, and for good reason.

I have nom idea why he continues to play soft zone. I suppose one reason is to not give up big plays, but that's not working so well either.

It's usually the middle of the field open. That is the safety / LB responsibility.

 

[longtimefan]

On Barry:

It's still very early in the season. With the youth on defense (esp. Wyatt, Walker, Slaton, LVN) and the guys returning or ramping up from injury (Gary, Stokes), there's a scenario where the defense makes a lot of progress over the course of the season.

I think he is getting blamed for a lot that isn't really his fault. For instance, Detroit's first TD drive, LaPorta snags a ball in tight coverage and Rasul just falls off him instead of making the tackle. Then Douglas bites on a pump fake, can't recover, falls down, and St. Brown is wide open for 6. I guarantee you that after that play, there were Packer fans the world over texting each other "fire Barry." But that's not on the coach; it's on the player. But fans, psychologically, really struggle to blame players for anything.

That's not to say it's all good on Barry's end. It isn't. On the second Detroit TD, the alignment basically invited the touchdown. You had Wyatt lined up as a 3T and Smith was a super wide 9. The C gap was a massive canyon even before the ball was snapped. The way the defense was deployed didn't even give them a chance.

My gut is still that they would move on from him after this season. And I think that's for the best. Barry strikes me as a guy who, at his best, can give you back exactly what you put in. He is never going to elevate his players and make them more than the sum of their parts. But it's not a huge deal, given that this is a developmental/assessment season anyways.

Then why did MLF basiclly it's insane to do same thing over and over again and not change

 

[milani]

Three negatives or uncertainties about MLF are: 1. Play calls 2. In game adjustments and 3. that Barry line/db/linebacker calls are not changed. imho

My biggest one not on the list is week to week game preparation. A plan is one thing but getting players mentally and physically ready is a different story. When he had the veteran talent it was not too difficult. Now...

 

[Heyjoe4]

You can’t play man at the LOS against condensed sets and bunches. It don’t work.

Thanks Dantes. Can you explain "condensed sets and bunches"? I'm guessing it's when WRs, TEs, and/or a RB line up 3 or more together on one side of the LOS, but I'm not sure.

I understand that playing the LOS would not work in those formations. But even where it's one WR lined up, Barry is dropping the CBs on almost every play in zone.

 

[Heyjoe4]

My biggest one not on the list is week to week game preparation. A plan is one thing but getting players mentally and physically ready is a different story. When he had the veteran talent it was not too difficult. Now...

I agree with all you and gopkrs have written. Game prep seems like an intangible skill - the ability of the HC and all the coaches really to get their guys fired up to execute the game plan.

To a man, the Lions seemed to have that fire against the Packers. I just don't know what to suggest to fix it. It doesn't happen every game, but a home opener against a top division rival shouldn't take much. And the players have to find it in themselves too.

gopkrs also raises the issue of in-game adjustments, or rather the lack of them. Why did MLF have to wait until halftime against the Lions? It was a different team in the 2H, allowing only 7 points that should have been 3. I understand at halftime wholesale changes can be made, but it must be possible to change play calling during a game to adjust.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Then why did MLF basiclly it's insane to do same thing over and over again and not change

And what's really "insane" about that MLF comment is that MLF is the one with the power to make changes.

 

[Heyjoe4]

It's usually the middle of the field open. That is the safety / LB responsibility.

Good point. It seems that on too many plays the open flat extends from where the LBs are all the way back to the safeties. That allows for shorter but high percentage passes underneath to 20 plus yard completions to a TE in the seam, or a WR on a crossing route.

Walker has shown some ability to cover the flat. The safety play, as expected, has been terrible. That's made worse by the CBs playing short to intermediate zones off the LOS and letting receivers run right past them with no coverage on the back - again, the responsibility of the safeties to properly stay in their zones.

 

[Dantés]

Thanks Dantes. Can you explain "condensed sets and bunches"? I'm guessing it's when WRs, TEs, and/or a RB line up 3 or more together on one side of the LOS, but I'm not sure.

I understand that playing the LOS would not work in those formations. But even where it's one WR lined up, Barry is dropping the CBs on almost every play in zone.

You bet.

Look at this image and the bunch of WR's in a trips formation at the bottom:

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

So imagine if three DB's lined up at the LOS in man coverage. What would happen? They would be incredibly easy pickings for a rub route or a pick play. Rub routes and pick plays are offensive designs in which a WR purposefully gets in the way of another receiver's defender, but in a way that makes it look like they're just running a route. On rare occasions, they get called for Offensive Pass Interference, but the vast majority of the time, there's no call and a receiver ends up wide open. I'm sure you can envision three defenders all trying to follow their man out of that trips bunch and the chaos that would ensue.

All of that to say, I do think Barry has been guilty of playing coverage that's too soft at times. But often the offense is dictating it with formation, and he gets blamed for it anyways.

 

[Heyjoe4]

You bet.

Look at this image and the bunch of WR's in a trips formation at the bottom:

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

So imagine if three DB's lined up at the LOS in man coverage. What would happen? They would be incredibly easy pickings for a rub route or a pick play. Rub routes and pick plays are offensive designs in which a WR purposefully gets in the way of another receiver's defender, but in a way that makes it look like they're just running a route. On rare occasions, they get called for Offensive Pass Interference, but the vast majority of the time, there's no call and a receiver ends up wide open. I'm sure you can envision three defenders all trying to follow their man out of that trips bunch and the chaos that would ensue.

All of that to say, I do think Barry has been guilty of playing coverage that's too soft at times. But often the offense is dictating it with formation, and he gets blamed for it anyways.

Thanks for the explanation, much appreciated. I'm a little surprised the Packers don't run more of these. I can see where they would be a real challenge to defend. At the same time, it's pretty safe to assume it's a passing down - or a decoy to a RPO I suppose.

 

[GB psyco]

We should have gone after Steve Wilkes, I understand the 9ers have the players, but they almost look better with Wilkes this year than they did with Ryans before he left for Houston. When I get to watch GB out here, 2 things I can count on. 1- whoever the opposing RB is will have a great game, 2- the middle of the field will be wide open for opposing WR/TE. On offense, Love will be under duress and Dillon's runs will be measured in feet, not yards.

 

[Heyjoe4]

We should have gone after Steve Wilkes, I understand the 9ers have the players, but they almost look better with Wilkes this year than they did with Ryans before he left for Houston. When I get to watch GB out here, 2 things I can count on. 1- whoever the opposing RB is will have a great game, 2- the middle of the field will be wide open for opposing WR/TE. On offense, Love will be under duress and Dillon's runs will be measured in feet, not yards.

Sad to say that's pretty accurate. And how can Love be evaluated when he routinely has 3 seconds or less to pass - not even enough time to get through more than his first read?

 

[ClutchLove]

Could you imagine having a D like the NY Jets??? I mean they kind of laid an egg and got shellacked by the Cowboys in Week 2, but besides that....

WOW! Talk about a team carried by their Defense lol

Wish we had somehting like that

 

[milani]

Could you imagine having a D like the NY Jets??? I mean they kind of laid an egg and got shellacked by the Cowboys in Week 2, but besides that....

WOW! Talk about a team carried by their Defense lol

Wish we had somehting like that

The D beat the Eagles for certain.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Could you imagine having a D like the NY Jets??? I mean they kind of laid an egg and got shellacked by the Cowboys in Week 2, but besides that....

WOW! Talk about a team carried by their Defense lol

Wish we had somehting like that

That's why I'm surprised the Jets didn't just get a journeyman QB, probably all they need with that D and the impact players on O. It's the OL that's questionable.

And speaking of D, watch out for the Lions. Talk about two overdue teams.

 

[ClutchLove]

That's why I'm surprised the Jets didn't just get a journeyman QB, probably all they need with that D and the impact players on O. It's the OL that's questionable.

And speaking of D, watch out for the Lions. Talk about two overdue teams.

Yeah I know...

I mean I think they have a TRUE stud runninback in Breece Hall. Bad line and all, he is still shredding Defenses - I believe he's averaging over 6 yards a carry... this guy's good. Garrett Wilson is also the real deal.

That D is VERY EASILY Top 10, arguably Top 3 - 5... they got whooped in the Cowboys game, but other than that, I mean they should be 5 - 1 right now with a halfway decent/passable QB lol

I honestly still don't know how Zach Wilson has a job if not for the guaranteed money they owe him.

 

[milani]

That's why I'm surprised the Jets didn't just get a journeyman QB, probably all they need with that D and the impact players on O. It's the OL that's questionable.

And speaking of D, watch out for the Lions. Talk about two overdue teams.

I gave up trying to have a D like the Jets a long time ago.

 

[rmontro]

I gave up trying to have a D like the Jets a long time ago.

Well that's not the right attitude. We should demand a D better than the Jets.

 

[milani]

Well that's not the right attitude. We should demand a D better than the Jets.

You are correct, Joe!

 

[Heyjoe4]

You are correct, Joe!

Gotta give credit to rmontro for the positive expectation for the Packers, D and otherwise!

 

[rmontro]

Gotta give credit to rmontro for the positive expectation for the Packers, D and otherwise!

I said we should demand a better D, I didn't say we would get it

 

[Heyjoe4]

I said we should demand a better D, I didn't say we would get it

A fine point there my friend. We should expect better from Packer's management, namely Gluten and MLF, to give us great personnel and great coaches on D, O, and STs.

And sometimes it comes down to being great AND lucky. Look at the Lions. They got a windfall in the trade for Stafford, lotsa high draft picks, and then the Rams win a SB and collapse, turning all those picks into gold. The Lions GM and co. follow that up with some brilliant drafting, and now you have a top 5, maybe a top 3 team. With Jared Goff at QB (ok, he has improved since the trade).

But did anyone think the Rams would go from worst to first and make those draft picks so high? That's the lucky part.

 

[AKCheese]

D-looked pretty darn good today