Fire Joe Barry -- Updated -- he's gone

[Heyjoe4]

Good memory, although it was Dan Aykroyd as the injured player for the Vikings:

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Thx for finding that clip! I forgot it was Akroyd. Damn those guys look sooooo young!

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I would ask how many times this has been called across the league so far this season.

It hasn't been a very common call. However, with teams now crowding the LOS for the "new way" of executing the "**** Push"/"Brotherly Love" QB sneaks, the league has decided that the neutral zone is something that now needs to be enforced better.

I think if you watch some game footage from earlier this season and previous seasons, you will see many WR's lining up with their toe right on the LOS, which is technically offsides, since you can't be lined up ahead of any part of the ball.

So it will be interesting to see if refs start flagging guys on plays besides this new style of QB sneak.

The Cowboys got called for it last year, on an ordinary play, against the Packers.

Cowboys get flagged for highly rare offensive offsides penalty in overtime

Dallas Cowboys get flagged for highly rare offensive offsides penalty in overtime.

www.nfl.com

 

[Heyjoe4]

It hasn't been a very common call. However, with teams now crowding the LOS for the "new way" of executing the "**** Push"/"Brotherly Love" QB sneaks, the league has decided that the neutral zone is something that now needs to be enforced better.

I think if you watch some game footage from earlier this season and previous seasons, you will see many WR's lining up with their toe right on the LOS, which is technically offsides, since you can't be lined up ahead of any part of the ball.

So it will be interesting to see if refs start flagging guys on plays besides this new style of QB sneak.

The Cowboys got called for it last year, on an ordinary play, against the Packers.

Cowboys get flagged for highly rare offensive offsides penalty in overtime

Dallas Cowboys get flagged for highly rare offensive offsides penalty in overtime.

www.nfl.com

Thanks Poker. What constitutes the "neutral zone"? In the pic you posted yesterday, it seems that it's the length of the football. Both offense and defense can line up in the neutral zone and get a flag. Is it simply the length of the football? That's a narrow zone and it would be impossible for all but the line judge to spot, I think.....

 

[milani]

Thanks Poker. What constitutes the "neutral zone"? In the pic you posted yesterday, it seems that it's the length of the football. Both offense and defense can line up in the neutral zone and get a flag. Is it simply the length of the football? That's a narrow zone and it would be impossible for all but the line judge to spot, I think.....

They opened a can of worms. Maybe they should. Maybe they should not. Recall the Steelers getting called when blocking a Crosby FG a few seasons ago. We are not accustomed to it on the offensive side of the ball. When it has been called it was obvious.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Thanks Poker. What constitutes the "neutral zone"? In the pic you posted yesterday, it seems that it's the length of the football. Both offense and defense can line up in the neutral zone and get a flag. Is it simply the length of the football? That's a narrow zone and it would be impossible for all but the line judge to spot, I think.....

Well, a football is about 11" long, so besides the center, every other player is supposed to stay out of that area, before the ball is snapped. That includes any body part.

Maybe they should use lasers that are attached to the line of scrimmage marker to clearly define that area on each snap.

Is THAT getting "too technical"? Probably, but if they are going to consistently make the call now, it might be helpful to players.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

They opened a can of worms. Maybe they should. Maybe they should not. Recall the Steelers getting called when blocking a Crosby FG a few seasons ago. We are not accustomed to it on the offensive side of the ball. When it has been called it was obvious.

Yup. Like I stated in a previous post, go back and look at old film. WR's and TE's are often lined up in the "neutral zone".

Even on kickoffs, I believe players line up right on the 35, which technically, would have them standing in the "Neutral Zone".

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[Heyjoe4]

Well, a football is about 11" long, so besides the center, every other player is supposed to stay out of that area, before the ball is snapped. That includes any body part.

Maybe they should use lasers that are attached to the line of scrimmage marker to clearly define that area on each snap.

Is THAT getting "too technical"? Probably, but if they are going to consistently make the call now, it might be helpful to players.

Thanks Poker. Funny cause the term "neutral zone" has been used for so long and I just realized I had no idea what it meant. As far as using lasers to mark it, yeah that's probably making too fine a point. It would have to be constantly repotted after every down. The grief outweighs the benefit.

And if a player has his foot or the crest of his helmet a few inches into the neutral zone, does it really impact the play? Probably not. I think it's fine to call it when it's obvious (seems to happen more on the DL than the OL). The calls against Runyan were too much. If he was in the NZ, it was barely noticeable from the angles I saw.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Thanks Poker. Funny cause the term "neutral zone" has been used for so long and I just realized I had no idea what it meant. As far as using lasers to mark it, yeah that's probably making too fine a point. It would have to be constantly repotted after every down. The grief outweighs the benefit.

And if a player has his foot or the crest of his helmet a few inches into the neutral zone, does it really impact the play? Probably not. I think it's fine to call it when it's obvious (seems to happen more on the DL than the OL). The calls against Runyan were too much. If he was in the NZ, it was barely noticeable from the angles I saw.

Actually, it would be a very easy technology to have lasers identify the neutral zone. There is a person who holds a "Down marker", which is always placed at the spot of the ball. That marker could easily be equipped with the 11" wide beam. Whether it only shows on TV/booth monitor and/or on the field, would be up to the league.

All I am saying, is if they are now going to call it, they need to be consistent. Only enforcing it on the "Brotherly shove" plays, isn't consistent IMO.

I'm a stickler for spotting the ball correctly. I can't tell you how many times I have seen poor spots, in critical situations. Put location tags in each end of the football and a computer can spot the forward progress spot, much better than the human eyes that are running around on the field.

One other pet peeve while I am at it. "Forward progress" seems to be a one way street. When a runner is held up and pushed back, yes, the ball should be marked where his forward progress ended. However, if that runner is still trying to get away from a tackler and even slightly escapes, then where ever he is tackled, that is where the ball should be spotted. Afterall, if he escapes and continues to run, gaining more yards, the refs give him that new spot.

I guess one more pet peeve on spotting the ball. If a QB runs with the ball and slides (not feet first), the ball should be placed at the spot (of the ball) that he is first touched (in the NFL) by a defender, since technically, he can get back up and run again, until he is. I have seen refs spot it where he started the slide, which as long as he isn't going feet first, isn't "giving himself up."

 

[Poppa San]

Actually, it would be a very easy technology to have lasers identify the neutral zone.

The intensity of a laser needed to outshine the sun on a grassy field would be very dangerous to the vision of the people in line with it on the sideline or in the stands. Lasers outdoors in the daylight are not as obvious as the movies pretend them to be.

I guess one more pet peeve on spotting the ball. If a QB runs with the ball and slides (not feet first), the ball should be placed at the spot (of the ball) that he is first touched (in the NFL) by a defender, since technically, he can get back up and run again, until he is. I have seen refs spot it where he started the slide, which as long as he isn't going feet first, isn't "giving himself up."

The slide offers the QB protection. He gives up yardage to "pay" for that protection. I've seen first downs lost when the QB was obviously diving for the line to gain and not sliding but he was marked at the start of the dive. Imagine the frustration when a QB dives for protection and slides 5 yards in the mud or snow. He wasn't hit earlier because the defender pulled up because of the slide rule.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The intensity of a laser needed to outshine the sun on a grassy field would be very dangerous to the vision of the people in line with it on the sideline or in the stands. Lasers outdoors in the daylight are not as obvious as the movies pretend them to be.

Well the "beam" would be at ground level. If they chose to not have it on the field at all, they can still mount a device that would reproduce the beams on a TV monitor for the ref in the box and/or viewers at home.

The slide offers the QB protection. He gives up yardage to "pay" for that protection. I've seen first downs lost when the QB was obviously diving for the line to gain and not sliding but he was marked at the start of the dive. Imagine the frustration when a QB dives for protection and slides 5 yards in the mud or snow. He wasn't hit earlier because the defender pulled up because of the slide rule.

Well yes, "the slide" is suppose to offer the QB protection, but only if he slides feet first. At which point the ball is marked where it was positioned, when he began the slide. Otherwise, he should be treated like any ball carrier , not down until touched or tackled.

I can't remember what game, team or player, but I remember seeing a QB sliding head first and not touched until 1-2 yards past the first down, the ball was marked where he began the slide. Not sure why it wasn't challenged or even mentioned, but by NFL rules, he wasn't down until touched by a defender.

As far as your protection concern, I do think if any player gives themself up by sliding, a ref should call a personal foul if a defender comes in hard, instead of a simple touch.

 

[Schultz]

Well, a football is about 11" long, so besides the center, every other player is supposed to stay out of that area, before the ball is snapped. That includes any body part.

Maybe they should use lasers that are attached to the line of scrimmage marker to clearly define that area on each snap.

Is THAT getting "too technical"? Probably, but if they are going to consistently make the call now, it might be helpful to players.

As long as they are not Jewish space lasers. I heard those things can get hot enough to start a forest fire.

 

[Schultz]

Well the "beam" would be at ground level. If they chose to not have it on the field at all, they can still mount a device that would reproduce the beams on a TV monitor for the ref in the box and/or viewers at home.

Well yes, "the slide" is suppose to offer the QB protection, but only if he slides feet first. At which point the ball is marked where it was positioned, when he began the slide. Otherwise, he should be treated like any ball carrier , not down until touched or tackled.

I can't remember what game, team or player, but I remember seeing a QB sliding head first and not touched until 1-2 yards past the first down, the ball was marked where he began the slide. Not sure why it wasn't challenged or even mentioned, but by NFL rules, he wasn't down until touched by a defender.

As far as your protection concern, I do think if any player gives themself up by sliding, a ref should call a personal foul if a defender comes in hard, instead of a simple touch.

I am pretty sure any time a QB becomes a runner and goes to the ground whether it be feet first or not that he is deemed "giving himself up" and is both marked where the slide or dive began and given the protection of not being hit. Now I am basing this on what I have seen numerous times called in NFL games not on actually reading a rule for whatever that is worth.

 

[Poppa San]

Now I am basing this on what I have seen numerous times called in NFL games not on actually reading a rule for whatever that is worth.

Here, knock yourself out.

RULE 7 SECTION 2 DEAD BALL ARTICLE 1. DEAD BALL DECLARED. An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended: ...
(d) when a runner declares himself down by
(1) falling to the ground or kneeling, and clearly making no immediate effort to advance;
or
(2) sliding. When a runner slides feet or head first or simulates sliding, the ball is dead the instant he touches the ground with anything other than his hands or his feet, or begins to simulate touching the ground;
Notes:
(1) Defenders are required to treat a sliding runner as they would a runner who is down by contact. (2) A defender must pull up when a runner begins a slide. This does not mean that all contact by a defender is illegal. If a defender has already committed himself, and the contact is unavoidable, it is not a foul unless the defender makes forcible contact into the head or neck area of the runner with the helmet, shoulder, or forearm, or commits some other act that is unnecessary roughness.
(3) A runner who desires to take advantage of this protection is responsible for starting his slide before contact by a defensive player is imminent; if he does not, and waits until the last moment to begin his slide, he puts himself in jeopardy of being contacted.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Actually, it would be a very easy technology to have lasers identify the neutral zone. There is a person who holds a "Down marker", which is always placed at the spot of the ball. That marker could easily be equipped with the 11" wide beam. Whether it only shows on TV/booth monitor and/or on the field, would be up to the league.

All I am saying, is if they are now going to call it, they need to be consistent. Only enforcing it on the "Brotherly shove" plays, isn't consistent IMO.

I'm a stickler for spotting the ball correctly. I can't tell you how many times I have seen poor spots, in critical situations. Put location tags in each end of the football and a computer can spot the forward progress spot, much better than the human eyes that are running around on the field.
and yeah
One other pet peeve while I am at it. "Forward progress" seems to be a one way street. When a runner is held up and pushed back, yes, the ball should be marked where his forward progress ended. However, if that runner is still trying to get away from a tackler and even slightly escapes, then where ever he is tackled, that is where the ball should be spotted. Afterall, if he escapes and continues to run, gaining more yards, the refs give him that new spot.

I guess one more pet peeve on spotting the ball. If a QB runs with the ball and slides (not feet first), the ball should be placed at the spot (of the ball) that he is first touched (in the NFL) by a defender, since technically, he can get back up and run again, until he is. I have seen refs spot it where he started the slide, which as long as he isn't going feet first, isn't "giving himself up."

All good points and yeah, putting a laser in the ball marker on the sideline would be more accurate. I'm still not quite sure how it would be implemented, but conceptually it works.

And yeah, spotting the ball is a very inexact process. How can a ref spot the forward progress of a ball when there is a pile of bodies? That's even more complicated because a runner isn't down until forward progress is "stopped" - or his knee or elbow hit the ground. Basically, it's a guess, and the cameras don't help much.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I am pretty sure any time a QB becomes a runner and goes to the ground whether it be feet first or not that he is deemed "giving himself up" and is both marked where the slide or dive began and given the protection of not being hit. Now I am basing this on what I have seen numerous times called in NFL games not on actually reading a rule for whatever that is worth.

I think that a QB only gives himself up with a feet-forward slide. If he just falls down, leaning forward, and isn't touched, Poker is right - he can get back up and run. I see your point though. No matter how the QB goes to the ground of his own volition, the refs seem blow the whistle all the time, play over.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Here, knock yourself out.

Thanks for finding. Not sure why they always say "The QB slid feet first, so nobody can hit him". Might as well dive with the ball outstretched, to maximize the gain and still be protected.

 

[Schultz]

Here, knock yourself out.

Thank you very much.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

As long as they are not Jewish space lasers. I heard those things can get hot enough to start a forest fire.

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[milani]

Thanks Poker. Funny cause the term "neutral zone" has been used for so long and I just realized I had no idea what it meant. As far as using lasers to mark it, yeah that's probably making too fine a point. It would have to be constantly repotted after every down. The grief outweighs the benefit.

And if a player has his foot or the crest of his helmet a few inches into the neutral zone, does it really impact the play? Probably not. I think it's fine to call it when it's obvious (seems to happen more on the DL than the OL). The calls against Runyan were too much. If he was in the NZ, it was barely noticeable from the angles I saw.

Like most every part of daily life people are accustomed to consistency and past practices. A change in a statute or law is something everyone hastens to adjust. Suddenly enforcing a rule to the letter of the law that was flagrantly neglected forever does not sit very well. And I believe that is the discomfort. The NFL has had to do this numerous times and it is their fault. The change in the offense holding rule in the 70s was a classic example. There was no more holding in the 70s than there was in the 30s. But pressure from DCs to call it forced officials to react for fear of being exposed on replay. And the result was a slow, boring, low scoring game that took a long time. So they change the rule and allow the OL to open up and use their hands. Maybe this rule will be changed.

 

[BrokenArrow]

One other pet peeve while I am at it. "Forward progress" seems to be a one way street. When a runner is held up and pushed back, yes, the ball should be marked where his forward progress ended. However, if that runner is still trying to get away from a tackler and even slightly escapes, then where ever he is tackled, that is where the ball should be spotted. Afterall, if he escapes and continues to run, gaining more yards, the refs give him that new spot.

If the runner retreats from his forward progress by his own power then he forfeits that forward progress. That's how it has always been.

I guess one more pet peeve on spotting the ball. If a QB runs with the ball and slides (not feet first), the ball should be placed at the spot (of the ball) that he is first touched (in the NFL) by a defender, since technically, he can get back up and run again, until he is. I have seen refs spot it where he started the slide, which as long as he isn't going feet first, isn't "giving himself up."

If a QB slides (or any player, actually), he immediately gets protection and no, he cannot get up and continue running. Let's say it's wet and muddy, should a QB get the extra 4 yards by sliding in the mud?

 

[BrokenArrow]

All good points and yeah, putting a laser in the ball marker on the sideline would be more accurate. I'm still not quite sure how it would be implemented, but conceptually it works.

And yeah, spotting the ball is a very inexact process. How can a ref spot the forward progress of a ball when there is a pile of bodies? That's even more complicated because a runner isn't down until forward progress is "stopped" - or his knee or elbow hit the ground. Basically, it's a guess, and the cameras don't help much.

Knee or elbow doesn't have to hit the ground. It could be hip, head, butt. The rule is if any part of the body touches the ground other than the feet or hands, the runner is down.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Like most every part of daily life people are accustomed to consistency and past practices. A change in a statute or law is something everyone hastens to adjust. Suddenly enforcing a rule to the letter of the law that was flagrantly neglected forever does not sit very well.

Plus if they were going to start getting nit-picky on that crap they needed to start with the damn Eagles.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Knee or elbow doesn't have to hit the ground. It could be hip, head, butt. The rule is if any part of the body touches the ground other than the feet or hands, the runner is down.

Correct. Thanks for the update BA.

 

[Heyjoe4]

If the runner retreats from his forward progress by his own power then he forfeits that forward progress. That's how it has always been.


If a QB slides (or any player, actually), he immediately gets protection and no, he cannot get up and continue running. Let's say it's wet and muddy, should a QB get the extra 4 yards by sliding in the mud?

I think Poker was talking about the times a QB doesn't go to the ground feet first (where he's automatically down, doesn't have to be touched) and the times where he falls or leaps forward with his feet behind him. I think in that case, if he's not touched, he could get back up. It happens rarely (that he doesn't get touched, or hit) and QBs do it when they're trying to get a few more yards than they would sliding.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Like most every part of daily life people are accustomed to consistency and past practices. A change in a statute or law is something everyone hastens to adjust. Suddenly enforcing a rule to the letter of the law that was flagrantly neglected forever does not sit very well. And I believe that is the discomfort. The NFL has had to do this numerous times and it is their fault. The change in the offense holding rule in the 70s was a classic example. There was no more holding in the 70s than there was in the 30s. But pressure from DCs to call it forced officials to react for fear of being exposed on replay. And the result was a slow, boring, low scoring game that took a long time. So they change the rule and allow the OL to open up and use their hands. Maybe this rule will be changed.

Yeah there was a time when they couldn't use their hands. They had to ball up their fists I think and keep their hands and arms inside the defenders shoulder pads. They can use their hands now to push back, but can't grab the jersey or pads, and still have to keep their hands inside the pads, I think.