[DEBATE] Staff

[pyledriver80]

Re: Ted Thompson

Um...pyedriver...hate to point out the obvious...but YOUR assertion that with these castaways we would be a contender is also an OPINION. Everything on here is basically an opinion.

FACT: We lost some players we wuld have liked to keep.

OPINION: IF we kept them we would be on a winning track.


Don't put words in my mouth about Big Ben, Fast Willie and Hines Ward.

Funny...your OPINION is gospel...any one else's is hogwash.

Are you here to tell me that Diggs has something left? Because if you are...it is merely an opinion.

Are you here to tell me that if we had just kept the players lost we would be in any better shape? Again, an opinion.

Are you here to tell me that we did not turn JW into 5 players? Um, fact.

Your OPINION of yourself is awefully high, isn't it!!

You know, pyledriver...enjoy the debate. I have no idea why you feel so compelled to have the best, loudest and final word on every issue. There are a lot of OPINIONS on this board...many from very astute and observant football fans who...GASP....are different from yours.

The only difference in our opinions is that you somehow believe yours to be dogma on all things Packers. Be open to others positions and enjoy a bit....there is no reason to get all up in people's faces with your big CAPS statements and pitbull attitude.

No it is YOU that misses the FACT/OPINION debate.

These guys were on the team that SHERMAN took to the playoffs year after year - FACT FACT FACT FACT FACT FACT FACT

TT took over, let these guys go, and we went 4-12 and started 0-1 in 2006 - FACT FACT FACT FACT FACT FACT FACT FACT

 

[digsthepack]

Re: Ted Thompson

FACT - Sherman left the cupboards bare. Um...hate to inform you...the state of a football team is not a linear constant...more like an economy...ups and downs. We are currently down, due in big part to the fact that our roster has been in decline for the last 5 years.

Now, big fella....jump up and down, stomp your feet, write something really in my face in CAPS, then fall on the ground to put the cherry on top of your little "mine is the only opinion that matters" tantrum.

 

[pyledriver80]

Re: Ted Thompson

FACT - Sherman left the cupboards bare. Um...hate to inform you...the state of a football team is not a linear constant...more like an economy...ups and downs. We are currently down, due in big part to the fact that our roster has been in decline for the last 5 years.

Oh, sooooooo how much CAP SPACE you have is whats important? In that case we are a GREAT FRANCHISE!


Winning/Losing doesn't matter. I can't wait til Sunday when all my buddies are like 'The Packers Suck Balls" I can be like "Yeah, but we have lots of Cap Space"

 

[warhawk]

Re: Ted Thompson

How many Oakland's and Washington's do you have to watch before you see the futility in chasing FA's and making all kind of moves at the expense of the draft doesn't work?

How many Super Bowls need to be won by teams with the patience to build thru the draft while being financially capable of holding onto their core players that defines those teams before admitting that does work?

the alternative to using the draft to build is to use the draft as a tool to obtain FA's. This just defined the Washington Redskins. What's in store for the 'Skins?

They may, just may get into the playoffs this year.

Then the bleeding starts. Players they want to keep will have to be let go because the can't afford to keep 'em all with those big FA contracts and there will be no young talent moving up to replace them. Does that part not sound familiar?

They will drop off the map. It will take YEARS before they can come back. I don't know why they do this.

How many times does it have to be tried before these teams realize that teams out there that have been building their team and holding onto valuable players will BEAT THEM EVERY TIME.

 

[majikman]

Re: Ted Thompson

None of these teams (New England, Pittsburgh, etc) have done it through the draft alone. It seems they also also know how to draft free agents as well.

(Look at what Hutchinson did last night, or Stallworth did in Phila. this weekend).

Alot of posters here seem to be happy that TT sinks the Packer money in war bonds or something, and doesn't spend a nickel on free agency. Well, it just doesn't work like that. Look at the teams that Ron Wolf built in Green Bay. Tons of free agents combined with good drafting.

If we wait to build a team just through the draft it will take at least 5 years to become any good. That's if your draft picks pan out and you can re-sign them once their contracts are up.

 

[pyledriver80]

Re: Ted Thompson

How many Oakland's and Washington's do you have to watch before you see the futility in chasing FA's and making all kind of moves at the expense of the draft doesn't work?

Are you serious? Signing a DECENT WR or O-Lineman does not break the bank, sorry.

How many Super Bowls need to be won by teams with the patience to build thru the draft while being financially capable of holding onto their core players that defines those teams before admitting that does work?

Every team bulids through the draft. Washington has a draft every year. It's a combination of good FA's and draft picks, sorry. I believe Cedric Wilson, Jerome Bettis, James Farrior,Tyrone Carter,Hasselbeck,Jurevicius,Engram,Wistrom,etc were all FA brought in by the 2 Super Bowl teams in the years leading up to the SB.

New England brought in lots of them as well. Guys like Dillon and Harrison. Go back through the years and check it out.

the alternative to using the draft to build is to use the draft as a tool to obtain FA's. This just defined the Washington Redskins. What's in store for the 'Skins?

Or defined by the Lions, Browns, Saints......How conveniently you point to the Patriots as a "Draft Team" but forget about the other 30+ teams.

Then the bleeding starts. Players they want to keep will have to be let go because the can't afford to keep 'em all with those big FA contracts and there will be no young talent moving up to replace them. Does that part not sound familiar?

So, you have to start rookies and go 4-12? You have to makes mistake after mistake?


Your theory is bogus. Every NFL team builds through the Combination of Draft and FA. For every Patriot team there are 5 Cleveland Brown teams. The way you build has little to do with it. It has to do with HOW EFFECTIVE you are. The bottom line is TT's constant failures don't look very good for the futureof this franchise

 

[DePack]

Re: Ted Thompson

FACT - Sherman left the cupboards bare. Um...hate to inform you...the state of a football team is not a linear constant...more like an economy...ups and downs. We are currently down, due in big part to the fact that our roster has been in decline for the last 5 years.

Now, big fella....jump up and down, stomp your feet, write something really in my face in CAPS, then fall on the ground to put the cherry on top of your little "mine is the only opinion that matters" tantrum.

Apparently you didn't accept my offer yesterday.

Why do I feel like everytime somebody has something bad to say about TT we will continue to get the reply "Oh yea.....but what about Sherman..."

Kind of deflects the attention doesn't it?

 

[Gopackgo82]

Re: Ted Thompson

Why do I feel like everytime somebody has something bad to say about TT we will continue to get the reply "Oh yea.....but what about Sherman..."

Kind of deflects the attention doesn't it?

I kind of started this, so let me make this clear. Mike Sherman is not used to deflect attention from TT. He is a reason that the Packers have been in a decline over the past few years. (And a winning record doesn't mean you can't be in a decline, you have to look past the record and look at the team.)

Mike Sherman is a good coach. Mike Sherman is NOT a good GM. 9 of the 27 players he drafted are in the NFL right now. I didn't think it was that bad, but I guess it is. :shock: Many of those picks were players he traded up to get. For example, it took 2 picks to draft BJ Sander, a punter, in the 3rd round. His draft record is absolutely atrocious. The only result you get from multiple years of horrible drafts is a team with a lack of quality depth and declining talent.

Whether Sherman is still here or not, those drafts still hurt this team. Think about it this way. If Sherman had drafted Chris Chambers instead of Robert Ferguson, then the injury to Walker wouldn't have hurt so much last year. Walker goes down, Chambers steps in, and we're fine. That didn't happen. Whose fault is that? It's Sherman's fault.

Sherman's mistakes are not used to deflect attention from TT. It is not an excuse. It is a reason.

 

[tromadz]

Re: Ted Thompson

:sucks:

 

[DePack]

Re: Ted Thompson

Why do I feel like everytime somebody has something bad to say about TT we will continue to get the reply "Oh yea.....but what about Sherman..."

Kind of deflects the attention doesn't it?

I kind of started this, so let me make this clear. Mike Sherman is not used to deflect attention from TT. He is a reason that the Packers have been in a decline over the past few years. (And a winning record doesn't mean you can't be in a decline, you have to look past the record and look at the team.)

Mike Sherman is a good coach. Mike Sherman is NOT a good GM. 9 of the 27 players he drafted are in the NFL right now. I didn't think it was that bad, but I guess it is. :shock: Many of those picks were players he traded up to get. For example, it took 2 picks to draft BJ Sander, a punter, in the 3rd round. His draft record is absolutely atrocious. The only result you get from multiple years of horrible drafts is a team with a lack of quality depth and declining talent.

Whether Sherman is still here or not, those drafts still hurt this team. Think about it this way. If Sherman had drafted Chris Chambers instead of Robert Ferguson, then the injury to Walker wouldn't have hurt so much last year. Walker goes down, Chambers steps in, and we're fine. That didn't happen. Whose fault is that? It's Sherman's fault.

Sherman's mistakes are not used to deflect attention from TT. It is not an excuse. It is a reason.

OK I'll say it again.....we all agree Sherman sucked :roll: Now, when we discuss TT can you just defend him on his record, his drafts, his signings etc. Otherwise it really is deflecting :-?

 

[DePack]

Re: Ted Thompson

By the way it is not uncommon for a new GM to get rid of the previous guys picks. The key is whether or not he replaces them with better talent.



12-4 4-12


So far it ain't looking too good.

 

[Gopackgo82]

Re: Ted Thompson

By the way it is not uncommon for a new GM to get rid of the previous guys picks. The key is whether or not he replaces them with better talent.



12-4 4-12


So far it ain't looking too good.

Agreed. I think we should wait until we can actually tell if Thompson's talent is better or not before we rip him to shreds though. Wait until these guys develop for a couple of years and then we'll see how good or bad Thompson is.

 

[pyledriver80]

Re: Ted Thompson

By the way it is not uncommon for a new GM to get rid of the previous guys picks. The key is whether or not he replaces them with better talent.



12-4 4-12


So far it ain't looking too good.

Indeed DePack, and by the way AHAUG stated "A team with declining talent can still post a winning record" which is true but isn't the record what you use when evaluating someone?

Isn't the record what gets you to the playoffs? Don't you get a good record winning games? Isn't it fair to say that if you have a good record you are CLOSE to building a Super Bowl team? Seems to me thats what what we were before TT took over. I guess records don't mean anything to some...........it's all about the CAP SPACE baby!

 

[DePack]

Re: Ted Thompson

By the way it is not uncommon for a new GM to get rid of the previous guys picks. The key is whether or not he replaces them with better talent.



12-4 4-12


So far it ain't looking too good.

Agreed. I think we should wait until we can actually tell if Thompson's talent is better or not before we rip him to shreds though. Wait until these guys develop for a couple of years and then we'll see how good or bad Thompson is.

I agree...and I'll give him til the end of thsi season two years. I'm not ripping him to shreads. I'm just tired of the "TT lovers" ripping Sherman everytime someone questions TT's moves.

 

[Gopackgo82]

Re: Ted Thompson

Indeed DePack, and by the way AHAUG stated "A team with declining talent can still post a winning record" which is true but isn't the record what you use when evaluating someone?

Isn't the record what gets you to the playoffs? Don't you get a good record winning games? Isn't it fair to say that if you have a good record you are CLOSE to building a Super Bowl team? Seems to me thats what what we were before TT took over. I guess records don't mean anything to some...........it's all about the CAP SPACE baby!

Yes, but a team with declining talent is a team with declining talent. The ship's going down.

I know TT has made mistakes. I think TT should have kept Wahle, for example. But he had to lose Rivera and Sharper because there was no cap space available to get the guys needed to make the team a Super Bowl team. Now he has to rebuild. Under Sherman, the Packers were just a playoff team. Thompson is trying to build a Super Bowl team. Whether or not he can do that remains to be seen, but he's doing it the right way and you can't really argue with the results he made in Seattle.

 

[DePack]

Re: Ted Thompson

Indeed DePack, and by the way AHAUG stated "A team with declining talent can still post a winning record" which is true but isn't the record what you use when evaluating someone?

Isn't the record what gets you to the playoffs? Don't you get a good record winning games? Isn't it fair to say that if you have a good record you are CLOSE to building a Super Bowl team? Seems to me thats what what we were before TT took over. I guess records don't mean anything to some...........it's all about the CAP SPACE baby!

Yes, but a team with declining talent is a team with declining talent. The ship's going down.

I know TT has made mistakes. I think TT should have kept Wahle, for example. But he had to lose Rivera and Sharper because there was no cap space available to get the guys needed to make the team a Super Bowl team. Now he has to rebuild. Under Sherman, the Packers were just a playoff team. Thompson is trying to build a Super Bowl team. Whether or not he can do that remains to be seen, but he's doing it the right way and you can't really argue with the results he made in Seattle.

He has no results in Seattle as a GM. Holmgren made the final decisions. I think we are seeing the difference between the two. TT is hanging on to to the ones he obviously recommended, Manual and Robinson while Holmgren let them go. He is falling in love with his mistakes.

 

[Gopackgo82]

Re: Ted Thompson

He has no results in Seattle as a GM. Holmgren made the final decisions. I think we are seeing the difference between the two. TT is hanging on to to the ones he obviously recommended, Manual and Robinson while Holmgren let them go. He is falling in love with his mistakes.

Lemme rephrase that then. "You can't argue with the results in Seattle."

That is a tricky subject. He had a lot of input on the drafts, but he wasn't the GM. Even though I know that, I always make it seem like I don't when I talk about it.

Seattle doesn't matter anymore anyway. It's about what he does in Green Bay and we don't even know what he's done yet. I just use Seattle as an example of what he's capable of doing if he does a good job.

 

[Gopackgo82]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs. ...

Whoa, whoa. WHOA. Yeah, we were talking about Mike Sherman, but it relates to TT and the current situation. We were having a discussion. I don't see why the thread needed to be modded and thrown into a thread with old posts. :roll:

And we weren't talking about Sherman vs. Thompson. We were talking about how Sherman's moves have affected the team that Thompson has to rebuild. Seems like an acceptable topic to me. :-?

 

[Zero2Cool]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs. ...

Sherman the GM destroyed the future of the team he was GIVEN which he coached into the playoffs.

 

[longtimefan]

Re: Ted Thompson

26-0 at home is one hellava drop "from last year". That score is still in-excusable, no matter what the justification !!! We had injuries all around us last year and the team did better than this !!

Sort of like losing at home in the playoffs eh??

but Sherman stayed around after those didnt he, and was STILL the GM..

 

[pyledriver80]

Re: Ted Thompson

26-0 at home is one hellava drop "from last year". That score is still in-excusable, no matter what the justification !!! We had injuries all around us last year and the team did better than this !!

Sort of like losing at home in the playoffs eh??

but Sherman stayed around after those didnt he, and was STILL the GM..

I love it, comparing a 4-12 season and a 26-0 debacle to losing in the Playoffs is like comparing Brett Favre to Ryan Leaf.


At least we made the damn playoffs!

 

[WinnipegPackFan]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs. ...

"AT LEAST WE MADE THE DAMN PLAYOFFS"

I like that pyledriver80, don't try and defend this type of loss longtime, please !!!

 

[longtimefan]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs. ...

Sherman had a team primed for a SB...

Rb that had the most yards in a span of 4 years, a QB that could will a team to win more often then not...An oline that put fear in to the hearts of other teams...

And how far did they go? one and done most of the time..

To me something was broke and needed to be fixed...Sherman had 5 years or more to fix it and it never happened..

It was Shermans GM moves that helped bring this team down..

Maybe something could have been salvaged from last year, but TT could not have replaced or added eveything that was truly needed..

You keep saying they made the playoffs, that is awesome and NO ONE will ever say they hated that!!!

but answer me this...

Do you think that they won those division crowns because they were far superior then the other 3 teams??? maybe one time yes...

Or did the other 3 teams really suck and the Pack were just a little better then average??? look back on the records of the other teams before answering this...

Or did one team ( vikings) really blow up at end of some season to allow the Packers to take it? IMO they were slightly better than avg, and needed Vikings to blow up...

That is why when they played the top tier teams in the playoffs they got SMOKED..Cuz they could not compete with the big boys..And what or who is to blame for that?? Sherman the GM...

ike it it or not, the team was going downhill after that Falcon playoff loss..


Pyle I can see EXACTLY what you are saying and it does make some sense..But I think you are not even trying to understand anyone elses view points..

Just cuz you hire an extermionator does not mean your roaches go away that 1st treatment, it takes time for it to fully work..

 

[longtimefan]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs. ...

"AT LEAST WE MADE THE DAMN PLAYOFFS"

I like that pyledriver80, don't try and defend this type of loss longtime, please !!!

You misunderstod my point..

I do not like all the moves TT has done in fact I do not really like him, but I am willing to give the guy a chance...

People want TT gone cuz of the teams play, but same people wanted to give Sherman another chance.

 

[pyledriver80]

Re: [DEBATE] Thompson Vs. ...

Sherman had a team primed for a SB...

Rb that had the most yards in a span of 4 years, a QB that could will a team to win more often then not...An oline that put fear in to the hearts of other teams...

And how far did they go? one and done most of the time..

To me something was broke and needed to be fixed...Sherman had 5 years or more to fix it and it never happened..

It was Shermans GM moves that helped bring this team down..

Maybe something could have been salvaged from last year, but TT could not have replaced or added eveything that was truly needed..

You keep saying they made the playoffs, that is awesome and NO ONE will ever say they hated that!!!

but answer me this...

Do you think that they won those division crowns because they were far superior then the other 3 teams??? maybe one time yes...

Or did the other 3 teams really suck and the Pack were just a little better then average??? look back on the records of the other teams before answering this...

Or did one team ( vikings) really blow up at end of some season to allow the Packers to take it? IMO they were slightly better than avg, and needed Vikings to blow up...

That is why when they played the top tier teams in the playoffs they got SMOKED..Cuz they could not compete with the big boys..And what or who is to blame for that?? Sherman the GM...

ike it it or not, the team was going downhill after that Falcon playoff loss..


Pyle I can see EXACTLY what you are saying and it does make some sense..But I think you are not even trying to understand anyone elses view points..

Just cuz you hire an extermionator does not mean your roaches go away that 1st treatment, it takes time for it to fully work..

Longtime I respect your post and your opinion but this is simply opinion.

The same thing you said about the Packers can be applied to other teams. Everyone likes to Compare what TT is trying to do to the Steelers, so lets look at this debate a little closer. They played in a relatively WEAK division with the Browns and Bengals. They made the playoffs and choked TIME after TIME. Instead of uprooting the whole plan, they added key guys to push for a Super Bowl. Are you saying they should have stopped after thier 6-10 season and just unloaded Bettis,Faneca,Randle El,Ward,etc?


This could be said about the Seahawks as well as a ton of other teams. Trying to put an asterik besides a Coaches or GM's record is ludacris. They beat who was on the schedule, who's to say if those teams were better we still wouldn't had won? They went to the playoffs and loss to better teams as did 10 other teams every year.

The problem lies in the fact that you want to constantly talk about how poor MS's draft picks, FA's etc were but if they were really that poor how do you explain making the playoffs every year. Sure we picked up a few easy Division wins but so did the Steelers, the Patriots, The Rams and every other playoff team. We must have beaten some pretty good teams outside the division as well.


It's not rocket science, Ted Thompson inherited a Playoff team from Mike Sherman. Ted IMMEDIATELY began to implant his gameplan on this team. He let Wahle walk when HE HAD THE MONEY to resign him. He let Sharper go, he blew money on David Martin, Earl Little,Matt O'Dwyer, Arturo Freeman, etc.

So what are you left with? TT inherited a team at least capable of 10-6 and because of HIS moves left us at 4-12. How can this be pinned on Sherman? Those same guys minus TT's moves were 10-6 the year before. Then he gives MS the boot, and hires a rookie head coach, let's go even more of the players that were part of 10-6, and sits on Millions of dollars after he told Brett he wasn't rebuilding. He then throws the bank at Woodson who is old and injury prone. Are you REBUILDING or not Ted?


The team is uninspired, flat and devoid of talent. Brett has to spend half of the game scrambling or getting put on his backside while Ted sits up there fiddling with the 8 million dollars of left over cap space. Then we hear CLOWNS talk about why Brett is so inaccurate and how he has lost his skill. Brett takes the blame for TT's failures. This is the same thing that happened to MS. TT is a damn snake, plain and simple. He can't admit that it's his doing.


You want to rebuild Teddy? Maybe you should have let Brett know when he was deciding to come back. Instead he says "we are not rebuilding" and scours the waiver wire for the cheapest trash around while he slides the leftover millions around in his hand. He lets the GB faithful walk in and out of Lambeau paying there inflated tickets prices and buying up 10.00 beers and 5.00 hot dogs only to watch his bargain basement, untalented team get smashed at home by thier hated rivals.


It's unacceptable to me and to others. If you are happy with it and just want to give it time, so be it. You will see where that gets us. It's time for TT to be held ACCOUNTABLE for his errors. Don't deflect his shortcomings on MS and let the Weasel that is Ted Thompson slip back into his hole!