Cuts

[GreenNGold_81]

I am going to say this - MVS shouldnt be here. Pick up Sanu and Richardson. MVS would not make another roster I dont think. I dont care about camp - I have zero confidence in MVS. If they keep him I have a gut feeling they may regret it.

"I would say the receiver I've been most impressed with, especially the last week or 10 days of camp, is Marquez," Rodgers said, via Packers News. "I think he has had some really good practices in a row and started to lay down some good practice fundamentals that he can lean on. But at the same time, I know (coach) Matt (LaFleur) said this at one point, this is the new standard for MVS. I'm proud of the way that he's gone about his business. I thought he had a fantastic Sunday and made a bunch of plays. Some heady plays and just some plays he's supposed to make. Now he's making the catches he's expected to make, and he's adding some extra plays in there where he's doing some smart things and showing the growth, so I'm really proud of MVS."

 

[McKnowledge]

LaFleur or Gute (most likely Gute) obviously thinks the group of 3 behind Adams is ready, but big gamble I'd say with not much evidence to support it. I think the problem is as @captainWIMM pointed out in another thread, MVS regressed over the course of last year and hasn't caught on to route running. ESB ... might be better at that, I don't know. He's kinda hit and miss. Lazard is the one guy I think maybe emerges, or at least will stick around for a bit if nothing else because he can make some tough catches.

Yes, I think Aaron Jones will and should have a significant role as a pass catching RB. Maybe even a little more than last year. I don't expect it to bump this offense into a major force this year though.

We just don't know. I would trust the judgment of a NFL coaching staff. As far as MVS, spending his second season in a different offensive system, could've contributed to the step back. Rodgers has recognized and publicly stated growth, so there is optimism. Outside of Adams, all the receivers are 2nd and 3rd year players, there is potential.

As far as the Packer's offense being a major force, I don't think they have to be. The defense is pretty damn good. Each season has brought more players that are a better fit for Pettine's system and I think the defense has a great shot at being Top 5.

The offense needs to get better yardage on first down, executing on third down, and getting big plays off play-action.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Is still frustrating though that this is a raddy plan by Gute who had a whole big plethora of WRs to choose from in this draft and didn't grab even one of them.

I don't even think it was technically a plan, it was more a fallout of what happens when you put too much hope in 3 late round draft picks and UDFA's, 2 years in a row and let career veterans walk away in the process. When Gute took over, he obviously saw the impending need at the position to restock WR's in GB, so he took a cheap approach of using a 4th (Moore), 5th (MVS) and 6th (ESB) in his first draft (2018). At the time he had just released Jordy, but still had Cobb and Adams and had just signed Jimmy G. No real instant pressure for a rookie WR. Year one, Moore was in trouble right away, but both MVS and ESB showed some promise. After that first season Gute let Cobb walk away in Free agency (2019), probably thinking MVS and ESB were on their way and maybe Moore just needed more time. Moore ends up being a total washout, ESB gets hurt and MVS has a pretty pathetic year #2. Thus leaving the Packers for a second straight year with Adams and a bunch of "hopes to develop" players.

In 2020, Gute could have potentially redeemed himself and addressed a very weak position through Free Agency and/or a very deep WR draft, he did neither. Instead, after the smoke of Free Agency had cleared as well as the draft , he signed Funchess. If the receiving group once again struggles in 2020, this will be a ********* mark on Gute's resume.

 

[McKnowledge]

I don't even think it was technically a plan, it was more a fallout of what happens when you put too much hope in 3 late round draft picks and UDFA's, 2 years in a row and let career veterans walk away in the process. When Gute took over, he obviously saw the impending need at the position to restock WR's in GB, so he took a cheap approach of using a 4th (Moore), 5th (MVS) and 6th (ESB) in his first draft (2018). At the time he had just released Jordy, but still had Cobb and Adams and had just signed Jimmy G. No real instant pressure for a rookie WR. Year one, Moore was in trouble right away, but both MVS and ESB showed some promise. After that first season Gute let Cobb walk away in Free agency (2019), probably thinking MVS and ESB were on their way and maybe Moore just needed more time. Moore ends up being a total washout, ESB gets hurt and MVS has a pretty pathetic year #2. Thus leaving the Packers for a second straight year with Adams and a bunch of "hopes to develop" players.

In 2020, Gute could have potentially redeemed himself and addressed a very weak position through Free Agency and/or a very deep WR draft, he did neither. Instead, after the smoke of Free Agency had cleared as well as the draft , he signed Funchess. If the receiving group once again struggles in 2020, this will be a ********* mark on Gute's resume.

Gute has tried to sign marquee free agents in the past but it didn't always work out. Allen Robinson received an offer from Green Bay comparable or better than Chicago's, but ultimately chose the Bears over the Packers.

Chicago as a team is inferior in nearly every aspect as an organization to Green Bay, but it doesn't prevent free agents from choosing the Bears (and spurning the Packers) over and over again.

I think what a lot of fans try to avoid discussing, is that many free agents don't want to come and play in Green Bay. There are many reasons (excuses), but facts don't lie.

https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/...wr-allen-robinson-before-he-landed-in-chicago

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/20...t-wr-allen-robinson-chose-bears-over-packers/

 

[gopkrs]

I think what a lot of fans try to avoid discussing, is that many free agents don't want to come and play in Green Bay. There are many reasons (excuses), but facts don't lie.

Well, I would not call signing The Jones Brothers as missing out. Nor did we overpay imo. But that and Amos and Turner did not leave us with a lot more room to do much else. And a lot of Green Bay Packers say they would love to stay and play. And I don't think that is some kind of weak negotiating ploy. It used to be that way a long time ago and maybe some players still see it that way, but I don't consider it a big problem anymore. Some of that, like in the 80s, we were so bad. Doesn't help to be really bad.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Gute has tried to sign marquee free agents in the past but it didn't always work out. Allen Robinson received an offer from Green Bay comparable or better than Chicago's, but ultimately chose the Bears over the Packers.

Chicago as a team is inferior in nearly every aspect as an organization to Green Bay, but it doesn't prevent free agents from choosing the Bears (and spurning the Packers) over and over again.

I think what a lot of fans try to avoid discussing, is that many free agents don't want to come and play in Green Bay. There are many reasons (excuses), but facts don't lie.

https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/...wr-allen-robinson-before-he-landed-in-chicago

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/20...t-wr-allen-robinson-chose-bears-over-packers/

Ummm I don't think the FA thing has much to do with it considering we've gotten them here for the defense. The Smith brothers, Adrian Amos and now Kirksey.

I don't know what or if Gute had much interest in Robinson or what the story was there.

Maybe we don't want to spend big money for free agent WRs to get here, and I'd say normally we don't need to. Thompson and before him even Sherman and Wolf drafted theirs and found some damn good ones at that. Gute, on the other hand has not gotten it done. Sure, we can make a point that his guys are in development mode right now and just need X amount of years to hit their bearings, but then again they may just be third or fourth tier guys period who'd never make it to #1 or #2 on another team period. And there've been many receivers who've been impact guys on a team well before year 3, so I'm really not too willing to give Gute that excuse.

 

[HardRightEdge]

The Packers need to trade for a legitimate talent at wr or more likely select one in the first or second round in 2021.

That's premature. We need to see how these guys work out this season, what next year's cap looks like, who is not retained in free agency, who does not get signed from the outside, and how this year's draft class works out and whether some other guys make that 2nd. or 3rd. year jump. What the needs will be by next March is a big fat TBD.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Big question is which TE will emerge?

It's probably a committee affair, but I'd lay odds on Tonyan being highest snap count guy in the group. He came in as an oversized WR conversion without much in the way of blocking skills. We saw him progress last year into a pretty respectable blocker. We know he has good speed (sub-4.6) and decent hands from the few balls thrown his way. The remaining question is route running and QB chemistry when the bright lights come on.

Deguara might turn into something approximating his draft status, but I think his snaps are going to be primarily as a blocker in a rookie year in a short camp and with no preseason. Sternberger, another 3rd. rounder, is still to this point an oversized WR; his blocking has not been up to snuff in the little action we've seen. I don't think there was high confidence in Sternberger's development when they went and drafted Deguara.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

That's premature. We need to see how these guys work out this season, what next year's cap looks like, who is not retained in free agency, who does not get signed from the outside, and how this year's draft class works out and whether some other guys make that 2nd. or 3rd. year jump. What the needs will be by next March is a big fat TBD.

While I agree with you that it is way too early to start predicting/inking in 2021 needs, its never to early to start looking ahead. If Nostradamus was alive today, I think even he would agree that there is a good chance that WR will need to be addressed and penciling it in as a likely high need, wouldn't be a waste of paper. Even looking one year beyond this year, Davante's contract is up at the end of the 2021 season, if that doesn't give Packer fans something to think about, I don't know what would.

 

[thisisnate]

While I agree with you that it is way too early to start predicting/inking in 2021 needs, its never to early to start looking ahead. If Nostradamus was alive today, I think even he would agree that there is a good chance that WR will need to be addressed and penciling it in as a likely high need, wouldn't be a waste of paper. Even looking one year beyond this year, Davante's contract is up at the end of the 2021 season, if that doesn't give Packer fans something to think about, I don't know what would.

especially considering that thequick's comment could have easily been made a year ago as well
there's only so much "wait and see" you can do before you have "seen"

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

I get the optimism, and I'd consider myself one. We're here now just one week out from the action and get to see what this year holds.

It's just that I and several others just don't see a collective group of struggling WRs behind Adams suddenly switch the light on in year 3. Mostly because that's not the way it works in this league, nor is it the way most other teams build their WR core.

Going to be interesting. Could be with the covid-19 impact on the league and coming in a bit rust that this offense struggles a bit early on. But maybe they do turn it on late in the year like 2016. Hopefully so. We'll all be happy if our group of WRs has internal improvement.

But you can be sure if it doesn't that there will be no more patience for that and the fan ire will rain down even hotter on Gutes head for doing nothing.

 

[HardRightEdge]

While I agree with you that it is way too early to start predicting/inking in 2021 needs, its never to early to start looking ahead. If Nostradamus was alive today, I think even he would agree that there is a good chance that WR will need to be addressed and penciling it in as a likely high need, wouldn't be a waste of paper. Even looking one year beyond this year, Davante's contract is up at the end of the 2021 season, if that doesn't give Packer fans something to think about, I don't know what would.

Well, if they don't re-up King and nobody else shows any jump, CB could jump to the top. If they do not re-up Bakhtiari, there's that, along with the questions to be answered from C to RG to RT. If they don't re-up Jones and Williams and Dillion turns out to be a battering ram and not an actual NFL RB, you've got that to consider as well. There's possibly ILB redux for seemingly the umpteeth season. If working Z. and/or Gary into 3-tech on all those nickel/dime snaps doesn't show improvement in stopping the run in all those tweener run-pass downs we'll be talking about a DL in the draft...again.

H*ll, for all we know this defense could sh*t the bed again in the playoffs, Pettine is shown the door, and they hire a 4-3 guy who will have to retool.

Pencils are fine. You could be scribbling down to the nub.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but I believe that not one UDFA made the Packer's 53 man roster this year. Is that a sign that the Packers had a good draft and a decent carry over roster or just a result of the shortened, no preseason games year that only gave UDFA's the limited chance to shine on the Practice field?

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

Well, if they don't re-up King and nobody else shows any jump, CB could jump to the top. If they do not re-up Bakhtiari, there's that, along with the questions to be answered from C to RG to RT. If they don't re-up Jones and Williams and Dillion turns out to be a battering ram and not an actual NFL RB, you've got that to consider as well. There's possibly ILB redux for seemingly the umpteeth season. If working Z. and/or Gary into 3-tech on all those nickel/dime snaps doesn't show improvement in stopping the run in all those tweener run-pass downs we'll be talking about a DL in the draft...again.

H*ll, for all we know this defense could sh*t the bed again in the playoffs, Pettine is shown the door, and they hire a 4-3 guy who will have to retool.

Pencils are fine. You could be scribbling down to the nub.

I don't think I've ever recalled an offseason where there was ever just one key decision to make, or just one need on the team. There will always be something.

But there is no doubt WR is the most glaring need and has been for a while. Us fans expect greatness at that position and don't tolerate any more half-baked results.

 

[HardRightEdge]

But there is no doubt WR is the most glaring need and has been for a while. Us fans expect greatness at that position and don't tolerate any more half-baked results.

Well, I'm a fan too so you can't speak for all of us. "Greatness" at the position might score fantasy points but if it is at expense of other position groups the outcome might not be very satisfying. It wouldn't do a lot of good if you're looking at an O-line minus Bulaga, Bakhtiari and Linsley over a 12 month period without suitable replacments.

Now if you want to make the argument that the top 3 picks should have gone elsewhere, a WR among them, you'll get no argument from me. I didn't like that draft when it happened and I've heard nothing to change my mind. Ordinarily I might have "seen" something to change my mind but we'll have to wait for Sunday and beyond.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I don't think I've ever recalled an offseason where there was ever just one key decision to make, or just one need on the team.

There was more than one in both categories.

Key decisions: not signing Bulaga, not signing Martinez, signing Kirksey, extending Clark, the guys in those top three picks and where they were picked, and by some lights not cutting Linsley.

Key needs: replacing Bulaga, replacing Martinez, finding a second ILB, adding a DL, CB depth and that WR you speak of.

 

[gopkrs]

Well, I'm a fan too so you can't speak for all of us. "Greatness" at the position might score fantasy points but if it is at expense of other position groups the outcome might not be very satisfying. It wouldn't do a lot of good if you're looking at an O-line minus Bulaga, Bakhtiari and Linsley over a 12 month period without suitable replacments.

Now if you want to make the argument that the top 3 picks should have gone elsewhere, a WR among them, you'll get no argument from me. I didn't like that draft when it happened and I've heard nothing to change my mind. Ordinarily I might have "seen" something to change my mind but we'll have to wait for Sunday and beyond.

You had to add Linsley LOL

 

[HardRightEdge]

You had to add Linsley LOL

Why not? I've been saying all along there were good reasons to believe the Packers would be hanging on to Linsley and Taylor while many disagreed. That might be two opening day starters right there. Scratch 'em and where are you then?

Linsley's a decent starting player. Any decent starter is often not easy to replace. A guy or two around here were pretty sure Jake Hanson could step in. Hanson didn't make the roster and he is not among the first 10 of 16 signed to the PS.

 

[PikeBadger]

Ummm I don't think the FA thing has much to do with it considering we've gotten them here for the defense. The Smith brothers, Adrian Amos and now Kirksey.

I don't know what or if Gute had much interest in Robinson or what the story was there.

Maybe we don't want to spend big money for free agent WRs to get here, and I'd say normally we don't need to. Thompson and before him even Sherman and Wolf drafted theirs and found some damn good ones at that. Gute, on the other hand has not gotten it done. Sure, we can make a point that his guys are in development mode right now and just need X amount of years to hit their bearings, but then again they may just be third or fourth tier guys period who'd never make it to #1 or #2 on another team period. And there've been many receivers who've been impact guys on a team well before year 3, so I'm really not too willing to give Gute that excuse.

But their QB wasn’t Aaron Rodgers.

 

[PikeBadger]

While I agree with you that it is way too early to start predicting/inking in 2021 needs, its never to early to start looking ahead. If Nostradamus was alive today, I think even he would agree that there is a good chance that WR will need to be addressed and penciling it in as a likely high need, wouldn't be a waste of paper. Even looking one year beyond this year, Davante's contract is up at the end of the 2021 season, if that doesn't give Packer fans something to think about, I don't know what would.

Finally. There is a good reason to draft a WR in the 1st or 2nd round. Insurance for Adams signing with a different team. Although honestly, I think Gutekunst will try to extend Adams before he hits the open market.

 

[Poppa San]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but I believe that not one UDFA made the Packer's 53 man roster this year. Is that a sign that the Packers had a good draft and a decent carry over roster or just a result of the shortened, no preseason games year that only gave UDFA's the limited chance to shine on the Practice field?

UDFA's make the roster on their game play in the preseason games. A good 2nd and 3rd game gets them more practice time with the 1s & 2s. As this year shows, a good camp may not be enough.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Finally. There is a good reason to draft a WR in the 1st or 2nd round. Insurance for Adams signing with a different team. Although honestly, I think Gutekunst will try to extend Adams before he hits the open market.

It is extremely hard to predict where a player or a team will be two full seasons hence. We can't reliably predict who the QB will be. If this team were to miss the playoffs in 2020 and 2021 you might be looking at new coaches, a new GM.

 

[PackerfaninCarolina]

But their QB wasn’t Aaron Rodgers.

Well, I mean yes the QB does have an impact, but a receiver will get it and develop on their own, or not.

They could be a Donald Driver who took a few years to turn into the big star that he was. One might even argue Jordy needed a little time to as well. Or you might have a Greg Jennings or James Jones who became impact players very quickly. But you also got your Jeff Janis's who just don't ever become the guy.

All those guys played with either Favre or Rodgers and all had different results. I'd be willing to bet that probably one of the 3 of MVS, ESB and Laz probably falls into the Donald Driver category. I'd probably put the other 2 in the Janis category.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Well, I mean yes the QB does have an impact, but a receiver will get it and develop on their own, or not.

They could be a Donald Driver who took a few years to turn into the big star that he was. One might even argue Jordy needed a little time to as well. Or you might have a Greg Jennings or James Jones who became impact players very quickly. But you also got your Jeff Janis's who just don't ever become the guy.

All those guys played with either Favre or Rodgers and all had different results. I'd be willing to bet that probably one of the 3 of MVS, ESB and Laz probably falls into the Donald Driver category. I'd probably put the other 2 in the Janis category.

The other difference between Driver and the current Packer WR's not named Adams, is that Driver was not counted on to be the #2 or #3 WR for many years. I think it was his 4th year (2002) that he actually became a full time starter. Lazard, MVS and ESB are all being asked to step up early in their careers and fill those important roles. I would imagine that most defenses that prepare for the Packer have the same Motto "Stop Adams and let the other guys just get their minimal catches and yards".

 

[lambeaulambo]

Don't forget Rodgers and his recent past here. His glaring lack of trust for WRs not named Adams is an issue and makes me hesitant to claim that it is a issue of talent. No one knows for sure because 12 did not give them a chance to shine. That could be a contributing factor for a proven WR to say no to coming here.