Blake Martinez

[tynimiller]

My beef with bringing Martinez back for depth is more there are much better players out there for arguably less or same cost he would most likely take that is of greater need.

At Safety we have two guys, and then arguably our third most capable is a CB named Rasul.
At Edge same thing, we have two guys that are awesome (top tier almost in the league duo wise)....then.....nothing proven.

I'd rather us resign Kevin King for cheap as our 4th CB and allow the flexibility of Rasul to be depth at Safety if needed over burying Martinez on the roster 4 or 5 deep.

 

[Voyageur]

My beef with bringing Martinez back for depth is more there are much better players out there for arguably less or same cost he would most likely take that is of greater need.

At Safety we have two guys, and then arguably our third most capable is a CB named Rasul.
At Edge same thing, we have two guys that are awesome (top tier almost in the league duo wise)....then.....nothing proven.

I'd rather us resign Kevin King for cheap as our 4th CB and allow the flexibility of Rasul to be depth at Safety if needed over burying Martinez on the roster 4 or 5 deep.

Martinez is an ILB on 3-4 defense, not a CB or safety. He's also familiar with the terminology of the system, and wouldn't need to sit out several games to adjust. But, we'll probably never find out.

 

[jetfixer]

Blake would be fine...........if we needed an ILB......we don't.

 

[OkieCheesehead]

Not really, it's in his specific thread and not over on the gameday thread....besides anytime a viable back up veteran is cut elsewhere I think the conversation is only natural, let alone one with experience with the organization.

I still think the longer this goes the more I'm willing to call up Kevin King and say look vet minimum plus interception incentives, "let's chase a ring with you as arguably the best #4 depth CB in the league and see if the team can get a SB and you can play into another contract elsewhere?"

Big time no on Kevin King. I can’t tell you how sick I got watching him continually get turned around by WRs. Opposing QBs would always look his way on third down. Maybe if he got some reps at slot corner, but definitely not on the boundary.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Big time no on Kevin King. I can’t tell you how sick I got watching him continually get turned around by WRs. Opposing QBs would always look his way on third down. Maybe if he got some reps at slot corner, but definitely not on the boundary.

I still remember the blown coverage on the Bucs' TD just before half time of the NFCCG a few years ago. King was burned, by like 4 yards, by a #3 WR. Playing him in the slot would be best, if they really have to bring him back. There are some good points about bringing him back. I just don't see it happening. Too much bad karma.

 

[SudsMcBucky]

I still remember the blown coverage on the Bucs' TD just before half time of the NFCCG a few years ago. King was burned, by like 4 yards, by a #3 WR. Playing him in the slot would be best, if they really have to bring him back. There are some good points about bringing him back. I just don't see it happening. Too much bad karma.

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[OkieCheesehead]

I still remember the blown coverage on the Bucs' TD just before half time of the NFCCG a few years ago. King was burned, by like 4 yards, by a #3 WR. Playing him in the slot would be best, if they really have to bring him back. There are some good points about bringing him back. I just don't see it happening. Too much bad karma.

I remember hearing Joe Buck say “..and Kevin King gets turned around” I thought “Yeah what’s new?” A stop on that drive and we’d be in the Super Bowl. I’m with @SudsMcBucky…it’s too soon lol

 

[Heyjoe4]

I remember hearing Joe Buck say “..and Kevin King gets turned around” I thought “Yeah what’s new?” A stop on that drive and we’d be in the Super Bowl. I’m with @SudsMcBucky…it’s too soon lol

Yeah I think we all have memories of that play- and then Dillon or Jones talking a hard hit on the opening drive of the 2H. Fumble and another 7 for the Bucs. A total of three plays, 14 pts for the bad guys. Ugh. Things will be better this year !!!! Way better!

 

[tynimiller]

Big time no on Kevin King. I can’t tell you how sick I got watching him continually get turned around by WRs. Opposing QBs would always look his way on third down. Maybe if he got some reps at slot corner, but definitely not on the boundary.

This is just a falsehood. You are letting one big remembered play and a few others control your narrative of his latest offerings in our secondary.

There were many games King was our second best performing CB last year until Stokes hit his stride and even a few times many grading metrics and just watching the film he was our best.

Massive failure in the playoffs against Tampa Bay before half the one year yes. But stop.

 

[tynimiller]

I still remember the blown coverage on the Bucs' TD just before half time of the NFCCG a few years ago. King was burned, by like 4 yards, by a #3 WR. Playing him in the slot would be best, if they really have to bring him back. There are some good points about bringing him back. I just don't see it happening. Too much bad karma.

He has rarely played any in the slot, and last year in all of his best graded games (70+ PFF) he lined up 22 in the box, 5 in slot, 111 outside corner.

 

[Voyageur]

King made some good plays out there. He also blew a lot of coverage. His problem was being caught on an island with speed merchants. They got past him, and he was playing catch up. But, he could go after the football, and also played some good football for the Packers.

To be honest, I think King and others were more exposed before last year, because there wasn't enough pressure on the QB from the front seven. They spent way too much of their time trying to cover longer than they should have had to, on plays.

 

[OkieCheesehead]

This is just a falsehood. You are letting one big remembered play and a few others control your narrative of his latest offerings in our secondary.

There were many games King was our second best performing CB last year until Stokes hit his stride and even a few times many grading metrics and just watching the film he was our best.

Massive failure in the playoffs against Tampa Bay before half the one year yes. But stop.

It’s subjective. There’s no “falsehood” and truth when it comes to player evaluation.

 

[tynimiller]

It’s subjective. There’s no “falsehood” and truth when it comes to player evaluation.

Eh....not really let's use actual metrics from folks that study film grossly more than I or anyone here does.

PFF
Last year King was our best CB graded amongst our main four guys on 5 occasions. I compiled the list below of their coverage grades by the weeks last season, bolded the weekly top graded guy.

Week	Stokes	King	Douglas	Jaire
1	73.80	40.10		75.60
2	72.20	57.10		63.00
3	52.90			81.90
4	41.00			59.80
5	62.20	76.50
6	56.30		61.40
7	75.70		84.90
8	47.00	77.80	71.50
9		91.90	41.50
10	77.40	28.40	53.10
11	30.10		56.40
12	70.70		91.00
13
14	72.00	62.10	90.80
15	89.60	57.60	67.80
16	60.20		60.30
17	64.20	75.70	68.30
18	65.10	65.80	53.00

King led 5 times, Jaire 3 times, Douglas 6 times and Stokes 3

Overall for 2021 grade King did better than Stokes even.

Now Stokes proved to be much more durable (albeit one season of reference) and has of course a higher upside/ceiling for sure....hence why you're signing King as an excellent depth #4CB

 

[Heyjoe4]

He has rarely played any in the slot, and last year in all of his best graded games (70+ PFF) he lined up 22 in the box, 5 in slot, 111 outside corner.

You're right about not remembering a guy for one lousy play. That said, when you let a #3 Wr turn you around, get 4 yards on you, and score a critical TD in a game where the whole nation is watching - well it's gonna follow a player, fair or not. Just like Bostic always being defined buy that muffed ST play against the Hags. In both cases, the game.

And it's human nature to be more affected by negative events.

 

[tynimiller]

You're right about not remembering a guy for one lousy play. That said, when you let a #3 Wr turn you around, get 4 yards on you, and score a critical TD in a game where the whole nation is watching - well it's gonna follow a player, fair or not. Just like Bostic always being defined buy that muffed ST play against the Hags. In both cases, the game.

And it's human nature to be more affected by negative events.

That was 2020 season, his 2021 when in he rarely was bad, actually was quite good.

 

[Voyageur]

Great information. Thanks! I can see where Stokes was in a learning curve as a rookie. After mid-season, he did gain some consistency. He should do better this year.

I see Stokes was under 50.0 three times, King twice, and Douglas once. Jaire stayed above that threshold, but missed most of the season.

To be fair, King should rate better than a rookie, with his experience. But, at the same time, his rating shook out respectably compared to Douglas.

Throwing King under the bus is obviously not something anyone should do. The figures are there, and based on evaluations made by coaching breakdowns.

 

[Heyjoe4]

That was 2020 season, his 2021 when in he rarely was bad, actually was quite good.

Yeah but no one remembers. I never noticed when he played because I didn't want to. You can cite stats all day that the guy is an above average corner. All people will remember is the TB game. And that was huge.

Anyway I really doubt if King will be back. If Gluten and MLF really wanted him, he'd be on the team by now. My guess is that his days in GB are over unless a disaster happens.

 

[tynimiller]

Yeah but no one remembers. I never noticed when he played because I didn't want to. You can cite stats all day that the guy is an above average corner. All people will remember is the TB game. And that was huge.

Anyway I really doubt if King will be back. If Gluten and MLF really wanted him, he'd be on the team by now. My guess is that his days in GB are over unless a disaster happens.

Your first sentence is just false.

I don't think we sign him until an injury hits then I bet he is on the table for discussion.

I think Edge and Safety guys are the most likely signing to our 53 if we hear one announced at some point without injuries factoring in.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Your first sentence is just false.

I don't think we sign him until an injury hits then I bet he is on the table for discussion.

I think Edge and Safety guys are the most likely signing to our 53 if we hear one announced at some point without injuries factoring in.

I feel pretty safe in saying that most Packer fans have no idea of King's stat line, and I'd love to know how you can say that is false. Evidence? Surveys?

Fans remember his blown coverage in an NFCCG, and the typical fan reaction in hearing his name is "Ugh" or "We coulda had TJ Watt."

Between King, Martinez, and now Lazard you just have way too much invested in these guys emotionally. It's like you're their agents or their brothers. It's a game for winners. None of these guys could remotely be called winners.

 

[tynimiller]

I feel pretty safe in saying that most Packer fans have no idea of King's stat line, and I'd love to know how you can say that is false. Evidence? Surveys?

You said "Yeah, but no one remembers." The very fact I remembered which prompted that proves I can call that sentence false.

It doesn't matter what fans may or may not remember, majority memory doesn't dictate history last time I checked.

FTR I have zero emotional investment in any of the players being discussed to dictate discussing their performances or potential impact to the roster/team.

Martinez - I fully supported the idea of letting him walk - if I so desperately believed he was amazing I wouldn't have felt that way.
King - I actually expected us and supported us not resigning him for the 2021 campaign...he balled out when in for us in 2021 and I won't hide that fact despite my support of not resigning him.
Lazard - Just calling it like we've heard discussed from the horse's mouth - Lazard is our defacto #1 and he will have every chance to prove whether he is production wise a potential #1 this year. His stats on third downs are out there and what I said compared to Adams from a production standpoint when targeted and such is all there and I've shared at times to back up my claims.

None of that is emotionally driven. Now I'd say guys I may defend more than some due to just liking them more than most would be if discussing Aaron Jones (he is simply a good human being) and perhaps Zach Tom not because I like him as a person but because I was so high on him in the draft preparation and christened him a starter in his rookie year IMO type player.

 

[OkieCheesehead]

Eh....not really let's use actual metrics from folks that study film grossly more than I or anyone here does.

PFF
Last year King was our best CB graded amongst our main four guys on 5 occasions. I compiled the list below of their coverage grades by the weeks last season, bolded the weekly top graded guy.

Week	Stokes	King	Douglas	Jaire
1	73.80	40.10		75.60
2	72.20	57.10		63.00
3	52.90			81.90
4	41.00			59.80
5	62.20	76.50
6	56.30		61.40
7	75.70		84.90
8	47.00	77.80	71.50
9		91.90	41.50
10	77.40	28.40	53.10
11	30.10		56.40
12	70.70		91.00
13
14	72.00	62.10	90.80
15	89.60	57.60	67.80
16	60.20		60.30
17	64.20	75.70	68.30
18	65.10	65.80	53.00

King led 5 times, Jaire 3 times, Douglas 6 times and Stokes 3

Overall for 2021 grade King did better than Stokes even.

Now Stokes proved to be much more durable (albeit one season of reference) and has of course a higher upside/ceiling for sure....hence why you're signing King as an excellent depth #4CB

You’re using PFF, who again grades players subjectively (they don’t even use all-22 film top grade) to try to prove a point? I watch the same game they do. I don’t need a bunch of skewed grades to tell me who’s solid and who’s not.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It's just funny to see many avoid the statistical production in one basis (Martinez) yet cling to it in another discussion (MVS as a good example)...its why it is never as simple as statistics alone, but it is also always something which must be considered.

The total number of tackles doesn't provide any information on where those were made. Martinez didn't seem to make enough impact plays with all those tackles, therefore I don't think him being among the league leaders in that category meant a whole lot.

Martinez is an ILB on 3-4 defense, not a CB or safety.

@tynimiller is well aware of Martinez being an inside linebacker. That's why he suggesting to rather bring in a cornerback or safety.

I still remember the blown coverage on the Bucs' TD just before half time of the NFCCG a few years ago. King was burned, by like 4 yards, by a #3 WR.

Don't get me wrong, King played it awfully but it's inexcusable that Pettine didn't put any safety help over the top on the play to prevent a long completion. Actually got him fired.

You’re using PFF, who again grades players subjectively (they don’t even use all-22 film top grade) to try to prove a point? I watch the same game they do. I don’t need a bunch of skewed grades to tell me who’s solid and who’s not.

First of all, of course PFF uses All-22 coaches film to grade players. In addition they have former players, coaches and scouts grading players so it might be smart to put a bit more stock into their grades than the observation of a random posters on a message board.

PFF Player Grades | PFF

The PFF philosophy, our process and how to interpret PFF Player Grades.

www.pff.com

 

[OkieCheesehead]

The total number of tackles doesn't provide any information on where those were made. Martinez didn't seem to make enough impact plays with all those tackles, therefore I don't think him being among the league leaders in that category meant a whole lot.



@tynimiller is well aware of Martinez being an inside linebacker. That's why he suggesting to rather bring in a cornerback or safety.



Don't get me wrong, King played it awfully but it's inexcusable that Pettine didn't put any safety help over the top on the play to prevent a long completion. Actually got him fired.



First of all, of course PFF uses All-22 coaches film to grade players. In addition they have former players, coaches and scouts grading players so it might be smart to put a bit more stock into their grades than the observation of a random posters on a message board.

PFF Player Grades | PFF

The PFF philosophy, our process and how to interpret PFF Player Grades.

www.pff.com

I worked at PFF during the 2018 season. Trust me, these guys don’t really know football.

 

[tynimiller]

I worked at PFF during the 2018 season. Trust me, these guys don’t really know football.

I only laughed because you can see the expansion of PFF just in the last couple seasons in their grading and such. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they're not what they were now five seasons ago.

That is awesome though, I've always wanted to work as an NFL college scout first, and second was a statistical analysis team for something similar.

 

[OkieCheesehead]

I only laughed because you can see the expansion of PFF just in the last couple seasons in their grading and such. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they're not what they were now five seasons ago.

That is awesome though, I've always wanted to work as an NFL college scout first, and second was a statistical analysis team for something similar.

Lol I get that. I think I’m just so ******* PFF because I had a bad experience with them. Nevertheless, they really have grown. I worked in player participation which was a pain sometimes