Another lost season in Rodgers prime

[Mondio]

Since I don't want to debate about Favre (and never did as you were the one that brought it up which by the way is the very definition of a straw man argument). Did you actually want to discuss the information you asked for and I gave you or are you going to ignore that? Which for the record is a straw man argument, the very thing you accuse me of doing.

Yes McCarthy did not say he was perfect. He did however put every last bit of the blame on the players. You don't even have to read between the lines. He does not believe that himself nor the coaching staff are the problem at all. There is nothing wrong with scheme or play calling, it is all about the players execution.

So again, that is pretty arrogant even if he did not say he was perfect.

Could you explain to me how blaming everyone but yourself is not by definition, arrogant? I mean that is what you disagree with yes?

I don't care if he is arrogant, he's not wrong at all in what he's said. If players make the plays that were right there in their hands I think we have at minimum 1 fewer loss, probably 2 fewer at this point. Just catch the ball in your hands. That's it and this season is looking completely different.

 

[Delsin Rowe]

You guys are crazy if you think sitting Rodgers is the answer to anything. If he's well enough to play, you play him.

 

[Ogsponge]

What exactly is wrong with the scheme and play calling? Or what was wrong vs. the Bears that MM should have taken blame for?

I swear some of you folks have blinders on.

1. Not continuing to use the running game more which was the only thing that was working.
2. Continuing to call plays designed for Adams who apparently can't catch a pass to save his life.
3. Continuing to use isolation route after isolation route even though they are not working
4. Continuing to not utilize Janis even though when he is on the field, good things happen.
5. Not benching Adams
6. Not benching R. Rodgers
7. Not using Perillo more
8. Not even attempting a single run when they had 1st and goal from the 8.
9. Continuing to have blind faith in the passing game that is not working
10. Continuing to play zone defense when the Bears where utilizing quick hitting sideline passes all night
11. And to sum it all up without typing 10 more lines, continuing to never, ever, adjust their game plan when what the Packers are doing is not working.

I am not some whiner and complainer. I will always back stuff up with facts. There is not a single thing above that can be denied unless you are homer with blinders on. I am not saying you specifically Carl I am saying any fan in general.

Everything above falls directly under the scheme and play calling. Yes, execution has been poor, it is the coaches job to fix that and at the very least give other people the opportunity to perform better when the incumbents are not getting the job done.

I seriously do not understand how some people can be so blind as to not understand it is a two way street, both player execution and coaching execution is horribly **** poor at this point in the season. It is the coaches job to fix that or find players that will do it right.

 

[Ogsponge]

Ignoring something is not a straw man argument; not commenting on something is no argument at all. (Perhaps you could post the definition of “straw man” in bolded large font? Of course that’d only be helpful to you.) I brought up your Favre-fandom because it shows your bias. So you admit you exaggerated. Just like your “Holy Trinity” comment. And do you know which word’s definition those two things fit into? Yep, “exaggerating” (perfect) and “exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner” (Holy Trinity) are parts of the definition of arrogant you posted. You look more arrogant to me than Thompson, McCarthy, or Rodgers.

Mondio detailed mistakes made by players, which reinforces what McCarthy said and you quote his post and write, “For the record I don't completely disagree with it either…” So you accuse McCarthy for being arrogant in saying something you don’t “completely disagree with”. You go on to say he shouldn’t trot out the same players that aren’t getting it done but that a “great coach does not throw his players under the bus in anyway, shape or form in public”. If he demotes Adams (as I wish he would) that is the most public rebuke of a player a coach can make, so again you seem confused IMO. And BTW, Mondio wrote a very reasoned response to that post of yours and you haven’t answered each and every point he made. Why not?! If you insist every point you make is worthy of being answered, why doesn’t that standard apply to others?

After the Bears game McCarthy said, "We're not getting it done in the classroom, we have to demand more as coaches, we have to make changes". After the 49ers game, regarding Barclay’s struggles in pass protection he said, “That’s something as a staff we can do a better job of.” If you watch his show or listen to his press conferences without an agenda you would know he frequently says the coaching staff has to do a better job. And, for example, if he thought the play calling was perfect, why would he and his staff do a self-scout?

See my reply to Carl, you erroneously believe I think it is all on the coaches. Are you unable to understand that poor execution by the players and arrogance on the part of those 3 can exist in the same space? They don't live within in a vacuum of each other. Actually don't bother to read my reply to Carl, here it is, just a small list of what this coaching staff did wrong in the last game:

1. Not continuing to use the running game more which was the only thing that was working.
2. Continuing to call plays designed for Adams who apparently can't catch a pass to save his life.
3. Continuing to use isolation route after isolation route even though they are not working
4. Continuing to not utilize Janis even though when he is on the field, good things happen.
5. Not benching Adams
6. Not benching R. Rodgers
7. Not using Perillo more
8. Not even attempting a single run when they had 1st and goal from the 8.
9. Continuing to have blind faith in the passing game that is not working
10. Continuing to play zone defense when the Bears where utilizing quick hitting sideline passes all night
11. And to sum it all up without typing 10 more lines, continuing to never, ever, adjust their game plan when what the Packers are doing is not working.

Again, it is the coaches job to fix this, the coaches do nothing to fix it, they keep doing and giving the same failing players chances over and over and over again.

Should I at this point just realize that you are the classic forum board bully who will ignore everything a person says simply because you erroneously believe something about me and you have a what ever number of posts/like that you have? Again, how about discussing some facts with me, it is still the one thing you have yet to do. Frankly it is the one thing you never do with anyone. It is always about them being Favre lover when anyone criticizes TT, MM or AR.

Please let me know if any of the points about the coaching staff are incorrect?

 

[Ogsponge]

I don't care if he is arrogant, he's not wrong at all in what he's said. If players make the plays that were right there in their hands I think we have at minimum 1 fewer loss, probably 2 fewer at this point. Just catch the ball in your hands. That's it and this season is looking completely different.

And again, I will make the point that all if you seem to keep wanting to ignore. Who's job is it to make sure the players execute properly or find people that will?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I'm still hopeful because like another poster said, "once you make the playoffs, all bet are off." This was certainly true of the 2010 team. A few things do need to change though. I agree that we don't seem to be playing with a fire lit under us. I don't know what it's all about, but it's noticeable.

Second, and I'm going to get flamed for this, but when a team is a draft and develop team, we need to draft better. We've had some pretty decent drafts and if you look at the defense, some of those that we thought were bust are now coming along. Datone and Perry are finally coming along. That being said, we can't have drafts like 2014. I know it's still early, but Bradford, Thorton, Goodson, and Richard Rodgers were bad picks. Granted it's early for **** Rod, but he's unbelievably slow. What's with the tight end screens to this guy anyway? Anyway, when most of your team is built through the draft you can't have a draft like 2014.

I know people are tired of me saying it and I know it's early in Davante's career, but this team would be in a completely different position if we selected Allen Robinson over him. Maybe it'll even out in the long run. I get that even professional scouts and the front office can't be perfect when drafting, but we need to do better.

The 2011 and 2012 drafts overall were bad ones as well and because of Thompson's draft and develop philosophy it has really hurt the Packers.

 

[Gonepackin]

Rodgers was the top reason why the Packers lost on Thursday.

 

[Carl]

I swear some of you folks have blinders on.

1. Not continuing to use the running game more which was the only thing that was working.
2. Continuing to call plays designed for Adams who apparently can't catch a pass to save his life.
3. Continuing to use isolation route after isolation route even though they are not working
4. Continuing to not utilize Janis even though when he is on the field, good things happen.
5. Not benching Adams
6. Not benching R. Rodgers
7. Not using Perillo more
8. Not even attempting a single run when they had 1st and goal from the 8.
9. Continuing to have blind faith in the passing game that is not working
10. Continuing to play zone defense when the Bears where utilizing quick hitting sideline passes all night
11. And to sum it all up without typing 10 more lines, continuing to never, ever, adjust their game plan when what the Packers are doing is not working.

I am not some whiner and complainer. I will always back stuff up with facts. There is not a single thing above that can be denied unless you are homer with blinders on. I am not saying you specifically Carl I am saying any fan in general.

Everything above falls directly under the scheme and play calling. Yes, execution has been poor, it is the coaches job to fix that and at the very least give other people the opportunity to perform better when the incumbents are not getting the job done.

I seriously do not understand how some people can be so blind as to not understand it is a two way street, both player execution and coaching execution is horribly **** poor at this point in the season. It is the coaches job to fix that or find players that will do it right.

Actually, there can be some things that can be denied considering it's not all accurate.

1/9. Running game wasn't stopped being used until they had their final two drives with short time.
3. What do you mean by isolation route?
6/7. Perillo has been taking snaps from Rodgers.
8. We can agree to disagree on this one. I wouldn't run with 51 seconds and the clock running.
10. I thought this was an offensive scheme discussion, but either way the defense played well overall.
11. Really hard for us to judge considering we don't know the game plans.

I do appreciate someone for once actually backing up well a statement about poor scheme and play calling.

 

[I asked LT to delete my acct]

You guys are crazy if you think sitting Rodgers is the answer to anything. If he's well enough to play, you play him.

Welcome to the forum. Way to make an introduction....lol

 

[Mondio]

And again, I will make the point that all if you seem to keep wanting to ignore. Who's job is it to make sure the players execute properly or find people that will?

Oh, I get it now. Thank you for pointing it out one more time. Silly me, McCarthy and his staff, the same staff responsible for years of consistently putting one of the best offenses on the field in the nfl has suddenly forgotten how to coach and how to use talent. A GM , highly regarded and respected by every one of his peers, can't find good players. Silly me. Despite having one of the best winning percentages in his time as GM and a team overwhelmingly built from the draft, he is obviously a horrible judge of talent.

These guys aren't playing well, all of them, at one point or another are not doing their respective jobs, unless of course you think this level of play has gotten Rodgers all those accolades in the past?


Go ahead and blame everyone that isn't on the field. You're absolutely correct. It's all on the coaches missed blocks, dropped passes, errant throws, and fumbles be damned LOL

 

[Half Empty]

Oh, I get it now. Thank you for pointing it out one more time. Silly me, McCarthy and his staff, the same staff responsible for years of consistently putting one of the best offenses on the field in the nfl has suddenly forgotten how to coach and how to use talent. A GM , highly regarded and respected by every one of his peers, can't find good players. Silly me. Despite having one of the best winning percentages in his time as GM and a team overwhelmingly built from the draft, he is obviously a horrible judge of talent.

These guys aren't playing well, all of them, at one point or another are not doing their respective jobs, unless of course you think this level of play has gotten Rodgers all those accolades in the past?


Go ahead and blame everyone that isn't on the field. You're absolutely correct. It's all on the coaches missed blocks, dropped passes, errant throws, and fumbles be damned LOL

Finally, somebody gets it.

 

[Delsin Rowe]

Welcome to the forum. Way to make an introduction....lol

lol Thank you

 

[TJV]

See my reply to Carl, you erroneously believe I think it is all on the coaches. Are you unable to understand that poor execution by the players and arrogance on the part of those 3 can exist in the same space? They don't live within in a vacuum of each other. Actually don't bother to read my reply to Carl, here it is, just a small list of what this coaching staff did wrong in the last game:

And yet if the receivers catch catchable balls and Lacy doesn’t fumble, they beat the Bears. No doubt in your mind that’s all on the coaches too since you post you don’t think it’s all on the coaches and then list only the mistakes the coaching staff made (in your opinion).

Should I at this point just realize that you are the classic forum board bully who will ignore everything a person says simply because you erroneously believe something about me and you have a what ever number of posts/like that you have?

I’m a bully because I responded to your crying about my not responding to your post? That’s hilarious. The only reason I mentioned the number of posts I have is because you claimed I’m ‘so fond of using the little red x so much’. I'm not and I was trying to give you some perspective because you typically only post when the Packers aren’t playing well.

Again, how about discussing some facts with me, it is still the one thing you have yet to do. Frankly it is the one thing you never do with anyone. It is always about them being Favre lover when anyone criticizes TT, MM or AR.

I’ve presented more evidence that you’re arrogant than you have of that charge being applied to the “holy trinity”. I pointed out a couple of obvious contradictions in your post and I quoted what McCarthy has said which indicates he doesn’t think the coaching staff is blameless. You haven’t dealt with any of that. And I have criticized Thompson, McCarthy and Rodgers so of course I don’t call all those who do 'Favre lovers'. Only posters like you who I don’t respect because they bring an obvious bias to their posting and only show up when they can bash Thompson and McCarthy. Which thankfully has been relatively infrequent on both counts.

 

[ThePerfectBeard]

The 2011 and 2012 drafts overall were bad ones as well and because of Thompson's draft and develop philosophy it has really hurt the Packers.

2011 was terrible, but 2012 gave us Daniels, Perry, and Hayward. That's not that bad, but overall I agree.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

2011 was terrible, but 2012 gave us Daniels, Perry, and Hayward. That's not that bad, but overall I agree.

True, but five of the eight players picked in the 2012 draft weren't even good enough to stay with the Packers for more than two years.

 

[Bagadeez04]

you can kiss this season goodbye. Sure, the Packers will make the playoffs but have no chance against the Panthers, Cardinals and maybe even the Giants. They have no passion right now. Until they get a legitimate TE who Aaron can use as a safety net, a possession receiver similar to the Patriots Edelman, they will not compete for a championship. Why are they not considering bringing back Joe Philbin. He was the offensive coordinator when they won the super bowl. Clements is awful and needs to go back to a position coach.
Devante Adams has regressed in his 2nd year and needs to be demoted behind Janis. This kid Janis is electric and could become a no. 3 receiver next year.
As far as the play calling goes, they need to establish a rhythm early with short high percentage plays such as screens and short passes. Also running on 2nd and 10 is a recipe for disaster.
Now to Rodgers....he is clearly not happy right now with his teammates and the play calling. He needs to step up and lead this team, which means telling MM what he wants and what he thinks will work.

I know people will say this is typical message board over reaction, but i think there is some merit in what he says.

It's true that you can essentially count down the years from here on out, until Rodgers retires or is rendered ineffective with age. It could be five years, or with some luck it could be eight or nine. The Green Bay Packers organization and fans have had a nearly unprecedented run of elite quarterback play. It is the kind of thing that hides roster/coaching errors and deficiencies; it makes our team playoff contenders year after year. In a few seasons this will no longer be the case...all bets will be off.

Though the season is far from over it is hard for me to imagine the team making the playoffs, let alone progressing through the divisional round. As usual the defense will look good against mediocre and bad offenses but completely implode against good and elite ones. We now have an offense that seems to lack talent, passion and chemistry. I recognize things can change drastically within a season...but its hard to imagine that happening this year because i don't think the coaches truly knows what the problem is. Blaming it all on "the little things" and "getting back to the fundamentals" only flies for a couple weeks. At some point you realize there are more systemic problems... I think we have reached that point.

Much can be fixed in an off season, i hope management generates just a little bit of a sense of urgency in the one coming up. With Rodgers at quarterback it shouldn't take much.

 

[Shawnsta3]

It's true that you can essentially count down the years from here on out, until Rodgers retires or is rendered ineffective with age. It could be five years, or with some luck it could be eight or nine. The Green Bay Packers organization and fans have had a nearly unprecedented run of elite quarterback play. It is the kind of thing that hides roster/coaching errors and deficiencies; it makes our team playoff contenders year after year. In a few seasons this will no longer be the case...all bets will be off.


Much can be fixed in an off season, i hope management generates just a little bit of a sense of urgency in the one coming up. With Rodgers at quarterback it shouldn't take much.

This is the worst year for this thread because I think it's obvious to almost all of us Rodgers himself is contributing to this "lost" season more than any other.

 

[Half Empty]

2011 was terrible, but 2012 gave us Daniels, Perry, and Hayward. That's not that bad, but overall I agree.

Not sure either of those guys help the rebuttal.

 

[easyk83]

You mean he kicked one over 30 yards and not out of bounds? I need to pull the tape on that game!!

I overheard MM saying in the locker room one day, "That Masthay can hold the hell out of the ball on kicks"

Hard to believe now but he was sensational that game, I dont know how many times he pinned the Bears deep in their own territory. Seemed like every punt landed inside the corned inside of the 10 yard line.

 

[easyk83]

The 2011 and 2012 drafts overall were bad ones as well and because of Thompson's draft and develop philosophy it has really hurt the Packers.

Overall those two years were not the drafts in which super bowl teams are built. Thankfully it looks like 14 was a good draft and that 13 and 15 were stellar.

 

[TJV]

Hard to believe now but he was sensational that game, I dont know how many times he pinned the Bears deep in their own territory. Seemed like every punt landed inside the corned inside of the 10 yard line.

Actually two of his five punts (one fair catch and one out of bounds) were inside the Bears' 20 yard line, one to the 10 and the other to the 14. He only had one bad punt - a 27 yarder out of bounds from the Packers 38. I don't think he was sensational (except perhaps by his standards) but it was a good game for him. I still think he needs to be replaced next season but that's an issue for another day.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Actually two of his five punts (one fair catch and one out of bounds) were inside the Bears' 20 yard line, one to the 10 and the other to the 14. He only had one bad punt - a 27 yarder out of bounds from the Packers 38. I don't think he was sensational (except perhaps by his standards) but it was a good game for him. I still think he needs to be replaced next season but that's an issue for another day.

They're talking about the 2010 game in week 17, TJV.

 

[TJV]

They're talking about the 2010 game in week 17, TJV.

Well then, as Roseanne Roseannadanna famously said, never mind.

 

[Half Empty]

Overall those two years were not the drafts in which super bowl teams are built. Thankfully it looks like 14 was a good draft and that 13 and 15 were stellar.

Tried to be fair (actually, based mostly on what I read), and I'd have to question 'stellar', maybe even 'good'

2013 DE Datone Jones D1 - Starting to make some noise, may turn out to be a #1
RB Eddie Lacy D2 - Had some ??? games, but obviously what the ground game needed
T David Bakhtiari D4a - Filled in adequately "for a 4th round rookie", not what's needed as a starter
C/G JC Tretter D4b - Came in nicely for a game, let's give him some time
CB Micah Hyde D5a - Would we miss him if he wasn't here?
LB Nate Palmer D6 - Would we miss him if he wasn't here?

2014 S Ha Ha Clinton-Dix D1 - Has problems occasionally, but still probably a good #1 pick
WR Davante Adams D2 - Really, really seems to suck
TE Richard Rodgers D3b - Really, really seems to suck
C Corey Linsley D5a - Looked like the answer last year, now see comments on Bak, above
WR Jared Abbrederis D5b - If he ever plays, we'll see
CB Demetri Goodson D6 - Yes, I guess he still is on the team
WR Jeff Janis D7 - His fault, or the coaching staff?

2015 DB Damarious Randall D1 - Doing well as a rookie at a very tough position, and one of need
CB Quinten Rollins D2 - Haven't heard as much about him, but no glaring weakness
WR Ty Montgomery D3 - See Abbrederis, above
LB Jake Ryan D4 - We want to see him, but we don't
QB Brett Hundley D5 - Great training camp, but we've seen that before. Hopefully will never be the starter.
FB Aaron Ripkowski D6a - Maybe special teamer, but a guy in a 'who cares?' position
TE Kennard Backman D6c - Well, this ought to fix our TE problems

 

[TJV]

Tried to be fair (actually, based mostly on what I read), and I'd have to question 'stellar', maybe even 'good'

Not bad from a 'half empty' perspective but if you consider his draft position, I think you have to give the pick of Hyde in the 5th round a positive grade. If you watched his entire rookie season and consider he had a couple of rough games this season, I think the Linsley pick deserves a very positive grade. IMO he's exactly what's needed in a starter (Tretter may be too). Since both Adams and R Rodgers have regressed from their rookie seasons, I think it’s too early to dismiss them completely - we've seen both play better and both are young. Just based on his STs contributions Janis deserves a very positive grade.

It’s too early to evaluate both the 2014 and 2015 drafts but since you are, I think the first three picks of the ’15 draft look very good. Randall has had a very good rookie season IMO and Rollins certainly looks like he belongs. He’s only handled the ball 18 times from scrimmage in six games but I’ve seen enough of Montgomery to be excited about him. He’s also 6th in the league in KOR average on 6 tries (Janis is first). Again way too early but I’d like to see Ripkowski on the field more, lead blocking for Lacy.