Training Camp Position Battles

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PackFan2

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Also Aaron Jones was arrested last season for an undisclosed legal issue ( update: marijuana, devils lettuce). Not sure how that will go forth in 2018 season.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Yeah we have those three but the thing is those three can all go down in ONE game. And we've seen it happen last season. Monty gets injuried, William's takes over for like a week, gets injuried. Jones takes over does well, gets injuried. Monty attempts to play. We were living on the edge o felt like. Didnt have that feeling with Lacy and injury/fumble prone Starks. I'd like to see at least one more season of those three if they can stay healthy. I'd stash Bouagnon amd May's on the PSquad.
Lacy's health should have made everyone a bit nervous. Like Mondio has rammed into my brain many times, a team really can't be deep at every position. 3 deep at RB with 1-2 possibles on your PS should do it. Given the Packers don't rely heavily on the running game anyway, if injuries start taking guys down, its part of the game and you do the best you can with PS or street guys.
 

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Lacy's health should have made everyone a bit nervous. Like Mondio has rammed into my brain many times, a team really can't be deep at every position. 3 deep at RB with 1-2 possibles on your PS should do it. Given the Packers don't rely heavily on the running game anyway, if injuries start taking guys down, its part of the game and you do the best you can with PS or street guys.
Sure, you cant be deep in every position but to say RB isn't something we should worry bout could come and haunt us. My point still stands we have three RBs who couldnt stay healthly last season. Entering this incoming season hopefully the three can but monty has shown a pattern of propensity to not be able to take punishment.
Sounds like he lost his license for 6 months, as well as a fine. Not sure if the NFL has weighed in yet. If you want to watch the actual arrest, go to this article.

http://www.tmz.com/2018/02/28/packers-aaron-jones-weed-arrest-license-revoked/
Yeah lol I saw that. If anything like G-Mo last season, he gets a one or two game ban.
 

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Lacy's health should have made everyone a bit nervous. Like Mondio has rammed into my brain many times, a team really can't be deep at every position. 3 deep at RB with 1-2 possibles on your PS should do it. Given the Packers don't rely heavily on the running game anyway, if injuries start taking guys down, its part of the game and you do the best you can with PS or street guys.
The Beatings will continue until morale improves... :)
 

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So MM gets credit for coaching two of the best QBs ever while failing to develop any backups for the past how many years? Again, are we saying that MM developed Rodgers and that Rodgers wouldn't have been this good with another coach? Then why can't MM find and develop decent backups for Rodgers (Flynn, as we can see in hindsight, was a product of having great players around him)?

At some point we have to admit that evidence is beginning to show that Rodgers is the main cause of Rodgers being great. And MM gets no credit for "developing" Favre. Yes, he reigned him in. Kudos for that but that's not developing.
Rich Gannon, Aaron Brooks had his best seasons with MM as his QB coach in NO. He coached up matt flynn to the point he got a fairly decent FA contract from another team. Came back here and won some games with us too. He's done more than you give him credit for. Favre may have been gone from GB a lot sooner had MM not come to town. The difference in his level of play was obvious. And Rodgers wasn't what he is when he entered the league. Don't discount what NOT being able to have a QB school because of the CBA does to the ability to build up a QB that needs a lot of work either. It's very limited these days.
 

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I think McCarthy was good at developing QB's under the old CBA rules. These new rules have hampered him, and he can't do his QB school like he used to.

Hundley is tricky because he obviously has talent. Good arm, good legs, even startling good accuracy in occasion...but he could not handle pressure at all. It's hard to know that until he gets under pressure, and as long as Rodgers was healthy, Hundley was never going to get that chance. It's one of those things you can't coach out of a guy either.

I guess what I'm saying is some guys look really good in practice, and then suck in the game. Some are the opposite. You never know until they're in that situation, so it's hard for me to fault McCarthy too much for that. I think it's obvious now he knows Hundley can't do it, and he found a replacement for him in Kizer. So it's not like McCarthy is completely blind.
I supposed reading beyond my quoted message would have helped. What he said^^^
 

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Eh. I think RB is the easiest position to find somebody decent at.
it's certainly not like finding DB's, edge rushers and QB'. It's probably the most plug and play position on the field besides punter. But i don't see many teams being 4-5 deep at RB. I wouldn't argue that it's terribly difficult to find someone to hand the ball off too and be serviceable. But doing what some of these offenses ask them to do limits the pool at least some. or it will limit the offense.
 
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Still scratching my head why Fackrell played so much when he performed poorly. I really hope Gilbert wins out. I still have doubts bout Biegel.
 

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it's certainly not like finding DB's, edge rushers and QB'. It's probably the most plug and play position on the field besides punter. But i don't see many teams being 4-5 deep at RB. I wouldn't argue that it's terribly difficult to find someone to hand the ball off too and be serviceable. But doing what some of these offenses ask them to do limits the pool at least some. or it will limit the offense.

I don't care how deep you are. If your going to the number 4 guy on the depth chart your going to be in trouble regardless of who your team is or the position that's hit by the injuries.

Is the question really that if we get so hurt at a position that we have to start PS guys we might be in trouble?

Guess what. We're pretty deep on the dline but if Clark, Daniels and Wilkerson all get hurt we're going to he in trouble there too. Still not overly worried about the position right now because well..... Nobody can account for that many injuries to a single position

Like damn
 
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Pokerbrat2000

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Still scratching my head why Fackrell played so much when he performed poorly. I really hope Gilbert wins out. I still have doubts bout Biegel.
My guess would be Fackrell played a lot of snaps (447 on defense and 354 on special teams) due to not enough healthy depth at the position as well as to see what he could do. If Biegel stays healthy, I think you will see a different player this year than you did last year. The coaches and players sound pretty high on Gilbert and his progress after 2 years, so maybe we will see less of Fackell in 2018.
 

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Sounds like he lost his license for 6 months, as well as a fine. Not sure if the NFL has weighed in yet. If you want to watch the actual arrest, go to this article.

http://www.tmz.com/2018/02/28/packers-aaron-jones-weed-arrest-license-revoked/

Wow pretty ****** of him. I don’t like people who drive under the influence, it’s one of the mostly inconsiderate, immature, selfish and dangerous things a person could do. Kinda hoping he loses out on the field now, would prefer to see jamaal and Monty take most of the snaps. Wouldn’t upset me if he were cut or traded tbh.
 

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Injuries are the X Factor; they'll have the biggest impact on your fortunes, but there's not much you can do about it or to prepare for them. And as RRyder pointed out, if there's a run on injuries at a position group, you're screwed because you're pretty much down to JAGS and street FA's. That's why I've always regarded the "next man up" line as a bunch of oversold BS.
 

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Still scratching my head why Fackrell played so much when he performed poorly. I really hope Gilbert wins out. I still have doubts bout Biegel.

I'm still pissed Fackrell was playing over Gilbert. Gilbert is better.

Why the doubts on Biegel?
 

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I'm still pissed Fackrell was playing over Gilbert. Gilbert is better.

Why the doubts on Biegel?


Gilbert hasn't done anything yet. So far the hype on him reminds me of Elliott. How'd that work out? I wasn't all that thrilled with Biegel when they drafted him either. Seems like a slightly better version of Ryan. His rookie year was a wash with injuries, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and hope for the best. But he's not a guy I'm going to get too excited about.
 

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Here are the competitions at each position as I see them:

Quarterback (2): I think you're realistically talking about two guys at this position. Hundley and Kizer are likely competing for one job. Given that Kizer was about as good as Hundley as a rookie in a worse situation, I would think he has to be the favorite. While he is not as athletically talented as Hundley, he came out of Notre Dame as a much more advanced passer with more arm talent.

My Guess: Rodgers, Kizer (2)

Running Back (4-5): Jones, Williams and Montgomery may be internally competing for primacy on the depth chart, but I don't think any of them are in danger of not making the roster. I think Jones is an easy favorite to win the lead role, with Williams being a change of pace with Montgomery capable of being a backup to either role. Joe Kerridge and Aaron Ripkowski will again be competing for the FB role and it will likely come down to who offers more on ST. The real competition here will be Devante Mays against himself-- can he make good on his talent and so force them to carry another back? I would think that the practice squad is his realistic destination.

My Guess: Jones, Williams, Montgomery, Ripkowski (4)

Tight End (2-3): It's hard for me to imagine that they would only carry two tight ends, but it's also hard to see a 3rd guy who's a shoe in for the 53 man roster. Graham and Kendricks are obvious. Unless they sign a veteran (which I would like), then Emanuel Byrd, Kevin Rader, Ryan Smith, and Robert Tonyan will be fighting for one spot. I have no idea who should have an edge in that group; frankly, I hope they sign someone. But if I was going to pick someone, Tonyan is easily the best athlete of the group as a former WR. A blocker would be nice, but I don't see any of these undrafted guys coming in and blocking NFL defensive ends, so I'll give the nod to the developmental project.

My Guess: Graham, Kendricks, Tonyan (3)

Wide Receiver (6-7): Adams and Cobb have their roles completely sewn up as the X and slot receivers respectively. The flanker position is up for grabs, but I would guess that Allison has a pretty sizable head start as his competition, while talented, is young and raw. Trevor Davis is on the roster, IMO, unless someone emerges to take his PR job. That would leave 2-3 spots up for grabs between Moore, Valdes-Scantling, St. Brown, Clark, and Yancey. I think Moore and St. Brown have the best chance due to draft status and pro system experience respectively. The team might be compelled into keeping seven guys if enough of the rookies or 2nd year players are too good to let go. One of the guys at the end of the line could make a strong case by emerging as a gunner on punt/kick coverage.

My Guess: Adams, Cobb, Allison, Davis, Moore, St. Brown, Valdes-Scantling (7)

Offensive Line (8-9): The tackles are all safe on the roster considering Bulaga's injury, with the major battle likely being between Murphy and Spriggs to see who will start to open the season. Bakhtiari, Taylor and Linsley have their spots locked down but RG may be a competition between McCray and Madison. Of the undrafted guys, Austin Davis seems like the most talented with the most potential to push for a roster spot. Patrick's replacement at Duke, Davis might challenge to become Patrick's replacement on the Packers. Kofi Amichia is a dark horse to compete for a 53 man spot if he takes a good step forward in year two.

My Guess: Bakhtiari, Bulaga, Spriggs, Murphy, Taylor, McCray, Madison, Linsley, Patrick (9)

Defensive Line (5-6): The majority of this unit seems all but decided. Clark, Daniels, Wilkerson, and Lowry are making this roster and will have roles on the defense. It would be highly unusual to cut a 3rd round pick in year two, so I think it's safe to assume that Montravius Adams is the backup at 3T. My guess is that Pettine will want depth on the DL as he has used them pretty heavily in previous tenures. James Looney, Tyler Lancaster, Filipo Mokofisi, and Conor Sheehy would be the guys competing for that spot. Looney has the edge of being a draft pick, but he projects as a 3T which is already two deep. The NT/1T/Shade role is the one without depth among the top 5, as Clark is essentially it. That would seem to open a door for Lancaster, the 6'3" 313 lb former teammate of Lowry's who many have pegged as the cream of this UDFA crop.

My Guess: Daniels, Adams, Wilkerson, Lowry, Clark, Lancaster (6)

Edge (5-6): Barring a move for a veteran (go sign Robert Ayers, please), this position will once again be counting on young guys to emerge as key rotational piece. After Mattews and Perry, Biegel, Gilbert, Odom, Donnerson, Fackrell, and Hughes will be jockeying for position. Given that they both flashed down the stretch last season, one would think Biegel and Gilbert have the inside track for significant roles, let alone to make the roster. In the 5th spot, I think you're currently going to be weighing Donnerson's talent and upside against Fackrell's ST ability. Personally, I'd rather sign Ayers, stick Donnerson on the practice squad, and cut Fackrell. However, now that Janis is gone, they will have to think carefully about punt coverage when making the final roster decisions.

My Guess: Matthews, Perry, Biegel, Gilbert, Donnerson (5)

Linebacker (3-4): This position probably won't offer much of a competition other than perhaps among the fringe roster guys trying to force the team to keep a 4th option. Martinez is clearly the MIKE, Ryan is his backup, and Burks replaces Thomas a the WILL. Parris Bennett, C.J. Johnson, Ahmad Thomas, Greer Martini, and Marcus Porter are all 1st/2nd year players who will be trying to prove they're roster worthy. I'm betting one or two make the practice squad.

My Guess: Martinez, Ryan, Burks (3)

Cornerback (5-6): The givens as far as the 53 man roster are Williams, King, Alexander, and Jackson. Among themselves, they'll be competing for the three starting roles. I would think that King and Williams will end up outside with Alexander in the slot while Jackson takes a redshirt year to be coached in the nuances of man coverage. Behind those four, the team will undoubtedly carry 1-2 more players. The options are Davon House, Lenzy Pipkins, Josh Hawkins, Donatello Brown, Herb Waters, Demetri Goodson, and Quinten Rollins. My personal hope is that one or more of the young guys show out well enough to make House expendable. Again, look for ST ability to be a big fact for the 5th or 6th spot.

My Guess: Williams, King, Alexander, Jackson, Pipkins, Waters (6)

Safety (4-5): Clinton-Dix, Jones, and Brice are all on the roster. The question is whether Jones can assert himself in camp and take Burnett's old job. The loser of that competition will be the 3rd safety. I like Jones to win out. It's mostly familiar faces behind those guys in Marwin Evans and Jordan Whitehead. Whitehead played more on defense last year, but Evans is a staple of the ST units. Raven Greene, the lone rookie safety on the roster, has gotten a little bit of play from media types and might challenge for one of the last spots on the 53.

My Guess: Clinton-Dix, Jones, Brice, Evans, Whitehead (5)

Add to those groups the three specialists, and there's you (undoubtedly wrong) 53 man roster.
 
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I'm still pissed Fackrell was playing over Gilbert. Gilbert is better.

Why the doubts on Biegel?
Injury prone throughout high school and college(edit: he was a very good player, but big cry baby). We played against him in high school (I also played against Melvin Gordon)
 

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Gilbert hasn't done anything yet. So far the hype on him reminds me of Elliott. How'd that work out? I wasn't all that thrilled with Biegel when they drafted him either. Seems like a slightly better version of Ryan. His rookie year was a wash with injuries, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and hope for the best. But he's not a guy I'm going to get too excited about.

Not sure there's a ton of hype on Gilbert? Being better than Fackrell is a low bar tbh. I just liked what I saw when he did get to play, and Bakh thought he was good. That's good enough for me.

I don't get calling Biegel a better version of Jake Ryan. They play a completely different position and aren't very similar?
 

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DNA pretty much hit on it, how much talent has MM had to try and develop into a solid QB? Besides AR, Brian Brohm was the only QB drafted before the 5th rd on MM's watch and like so many QB's out of college, Brohm just didn't have it. Just because the Packers draft a QB or sign an UDFA, doesn't mean MM is going to turn him into a FHOF QB. Maybe that is the mindset that the Packers and fans need to get themselves out of, just because you draft a QB, doesn't mean you will be able to develop him into a successful NFL QB.

Then why does MM insist that the QBs are good enough and, more importantly, why does he not modify his offenses to help those QBs. People were amazed last year at the improvement in Jared Goff's game and it came to light partway through the season that much of his improvement was because the Rams coaching staff had the offense hurry to the line and then, when the defense was lined up, Goff looked to the sideline and the coach read the defense and gave him the audible. McVay was putting his QB in the best position to win. MM on the other hand, with Hundley, ran basically the same offense; the Packers ran 1/1 offensive sets 637 snaps last year, the next closest was the 1/2 set 114 snaps. Coming into the draft Hundley's pros were his athleticism and dual-threat ability; his weaknesses were vision and accuracy. So what does our offense do with Hundley? Trot out 3 wide receivers and force Hundley to read defenses...

Look, MM won a Super Bowl with a good offense and a great defense. He's been a very good developer of talent (though not as great recently). However, he's had some really bad coaching decisions and, let's be crystal clear here, there's absolutely no reason the Packers with Aaron Rodgers should have ONE Super Bowl appearance with Rodgers at QB. We can blame the defense all we want but recent Super Bowl champs have given up a lot of points as well and still won. Plus, who's decision was it to keep Capers all those years?
 

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Wow pretty ****** of him. I don’t like people who drive under the influence, it’s one of the mostly inconsiderate, immature, selfish and dangerous things a person could do. Kinda hoping he loses out on the field now, would prefer to see jamaal and Monty take most of the snaps. Wouldn’t upset me if he were cut or traded tbh.

I agree with you, except maybe the part about him losing his job with the Packers after one offense. While I would never condone driving under the influence, I think there are better ways to handle it then it costing someone their job. For most, the loss of license, the fines and increase in insurance are a big enough sting to make them think twice about doing it again. Obviously, the fine and increase in insurance costs were probably nothing to Jones. Now the sting he will probably feel by being suspended without pay for a game or 2 might get his attention. If it doesn't and he keeps living his life that way, then I agree, pack your bags.

I actually spend time around college athletes and I have known a few of them to partake of weed, which I really could care less about, but driving under the influence is definitely a different story. At some point the US and the NFL will get it right, but out on the road, there is no place for it.
 

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Rich Gannon, Aaron Brooks had his best seasons with MM as his QB coach in NO. He coached up matt flynn to the point he got a fairly decent FA contract from another team. Came back here and won some games with us too. He's done more than you give him credit for. Favre may have been gone from GB a lot sooner had MM not come to town. The difference in his level of play was obvious. And Rodgers wasn't what he is when he entered the league. Don't discount what NOT being able to have a QB school because of the CBA does to the ability to build up a QB that needs a lot of work either. It's very limited these days.

So, if the CBA is hampering him, then the Packers should either change the CBA to unleash MM's true ability (impossible) or find a coach that can work under the current CBA. Matt Flynn played well in Green Bay, but as I said I think we can tell in hindsight that much of that was talent on the offense around Flynn. Brooks was decent but never really great (his best year was immediately followed by his second worst year). McCarthy was the QB coach in KC for Gannon for '95-'98; Gannon played a total of 27 games those years throwing 23 TDs and 11 INTs so that's not exactly great (i'm pretty sure on these numbers but I'm not a KC fan so I could be off). I'm not sure what the Favre point is. Are you saying that Favre would have gone to a different team had MM not been the coach? Again, that's irrelevant since we're talking development of QBs.

I have no problems giving credit to MM for developing offensive talent during his tenure in Green Bay and being an innovative offensive mind when he came to Green Bay. However, if his QB development ability relies on something that can't be done in the NFL, then it's pointless. Additionally, for all the offensive flair he showed early on, his offenses had become conservative until last year when he finally tried some new things.
 

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Then why does MM insist that the QBs are good enough and, more importantly, why does he not modify his offenses to help those QBs. People were amazed last year at the improvement in Jared Goff's game and it came to light partway through the season that much of his improvement was because the Rams coaching staff had the offense hurry to the line and then, when the defense was lined up, Goff looked to the sideline and the coach read the defense and gave him the audible. McVay was putting his QB in the best position to win. MM on the other hand, with Hundley, ran basically the same offense; the Packers ran 1/1 offensive sets 637 snaps last year, the next closest was the 1/2 set 114 snaps. Coming into the draft Hundley's pros were his athleticism and dual-threat ability; his weaknesses were vision and accuracy. So what does our offense do with Hundley? Trot out 3 wide receivers and force Hundley to read defenses...

Look, MM won a Super Bowl with a good offense and a great defense. He's been a very good developer of talent (though not as great recently). However, he's had some really bad coaching decisions and, let's be crystal clear here, there's absolutely no reason the Packers with Aaron Rodgers should have ONE Super Bowl appearance with Rodgers at QB. We can blame the defense all we want but recent Super Bowl champs have given up a lot of points as well and still won. Plus, who's decision was it to keep Capers all those years?
and we'll see how that works out. maybe he's hampering his young QB because he doesn't make the decisions or get to learn from his mistakes in reading defenses. Maybe defenses figure out what his coach is going to do and Goff never learns to do it for himself or change the reads and they bait him into all sorts of things. Was it better? they still haven't won anything.

anyway, i'm not here to change your mind. MM will always be linked to Rodgers and his success, whether you like it or not.
 

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So, if the CBA is hampering him, then the Packers should either change the CBA to unleash MM's true ability (impossible) or find a coach that can work under the current CBA. Matt Flynn played well in Green Bay, but as I said I think we can tell in hindsight that much of that was talent on the offense around Flynn. Brooks was decent but never really great (his best year was immediately followed by his second worst year). McCarthy was the QB coach in KC for Gannon for '95-'98; Gannon played a total of 27 games those years throwing 23 TDs and 11 INTs so that's not exactly great (i'm pretty sure on these numbers but I'm not a KC fan so I could be off). I'm not sure what the Favre point is. Are you saying that Favre would have gone to a different team had MM not been the coach? Again, that's irrelevant since we're talking development of QBs.

I have no problems giving credit to MM for developing offensive talent during his tenure in Green Bay and being an innovative offensive mind when he came to Green Bay. However, if his QB development ability relies on something that can't be done in the NFL, then it's pointless. Additionally, for all the offensive flair he showed early on, his offenses had become conservative until last year when he finally tried some new things.
How are you supposed to develop a QB when you don't have time to develop him? you can't take the time to work with him because you have to take that time to get the rest of the team ready to play that week. Unless you think it's a good idea to develop 5th round picks at the expense of the rest of the team and starting QB? you act like all these other teams are cranking out late round draft picks as good QB's??
 

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Then why does MM insist that the QBs are good enough and, more importantly, why does he not modify his offenses to help those QBs. People were amazed last year at the improvement in Jared Goff's game and it came to light partway through the season that much of his improvement was because the Rams coaching staff had the offense hurry to the line and then, when the defense was lined up, Goff looked to the sideline and the coach read the defense and gave him the audible. McVay was putting his QB in the best position to win. MM on the other hand, with Hundley, ran basically the same offense; the Packers ran 1/1 offensive sets 637 snaps last year, the next closest was the 1/2 set 114 snaps. Coming into the draft Hundley's pros were his athleticism and dual-threat ability; his weaknesses were vision and accuracy. So what does our offense do with Hundley? Trot out 3 wide receivers and force Hundley to read defenses...

Are you really comparing the development of Goff and Hundley? Goff was the first pick of the 2016 draft and Hundley was the 147th pick in the 2015 draft. There is a reason for that. Sure, it would have been great if Hundley had come in last year and played as good as Goff did, but Goff is the better player and a player with more NFL snaps than Hundley had. I would also suspect that Goff was viewed as the Rams starter and given a ton of attention. Hundley was a 5th round pick and given backup (2nd and 3rd string) attention and reps.

While I don't think Hundley will ever be very good, if he had to play again this season, I would predict he would be improved, but not as much as Goff did from his first season to his next. I wouldn't put that all on MM, your lemonade is only going to be as good as the lemons you put into it.
 
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