Training Camp Position Battles

Sunshinepacker

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Yeah 19th doesn't scream ultra conservative. Its low end middle.

Also I'm curious on the context of the attempts. The Packers have one of the better winning percentages in that league over that time frame so they aren't "padding" the 4th down attempts going for it on 4th down late in the game while trailing as much as other teams

Nice write up on where MM ranks. And comparing one conservative guy to a bunch of other conservative guys doesn't make one guy NOT conservative. I will give MM credit, he's improved in going for it on 4th down. Now if he could only improve in offensive play design and QB development/evaluation.

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/mike-mccarthy-was-one-of-nfls-most-aggressive-coaches-in-2017-345
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Nice write up on where MM ranks. And comparing one conservative guy to a bunch of other conservative guys doesn't make one guy NOT conservative. I will give MM credit, he's improved in going for it on 4th down. Now if he could only improve in offensive play design and QB development/evaluation.

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/mike-mccarthy-was-one-of-nfls-most-aggressive-coaches-in-2017-345

Might also show you what a coach is willing to do when his team is losing games with Brett Hundley at QB.
 

Divot

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I want MAJOR competition at RT and RG.

Of course....us GM wannabes find the bottom of the roster interesting and exciting to follow. It is time to get better starters...and if you get hurt...the #2 behind you WILL take you place.

After last year, I would have paid ARod our entire salary cap this year and cut everyone else. Horrible. This has to stop. McCarthy has to be on a short leash and hopefully this spills over to STARTER COMPETITION.
 
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lol thanks for the stat... I'd offer two ideas around it....
1. 19th, while not in the top half, does not fall into what I would term ultra conservative.
2. Since the Packers have traditionally had a pretty good offense... I think we also need to know how the Packers compare to the other teams with regards to total conversions on drives. ie how many drives are converted on 1st, 2nd and 3rd down. In other words... since you you gave an aggregate number... how many 4th down decisions has McCarthy had to make compared to the other 31 teams?

I should say .. when you state that they are tied for 19th...is that, as I suspect simply a total number of attempts? or is it a percentage of tries based on how many each individual team had had to make?

The Packers are tied for 19th in the total number of fourth down attempts since 2006. It might be worth mentioning that the team faced the sixth fewest fourth downs over that period.

I will give MM credit, he's improved in going for it on 4th down. Now if he could only improve in offensive play design and QB development/evaluation.

McCarthy did a pretty decent job developing Rodgers.

I want MAJOR competition at RT and RG.

There will definitely be some competition for the starting jobs at right guard and tackle but I wouldn't expect it to be major ones.
 

GleefulGary

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The Packers are tied for 19th in the total number of fourth down attempts since 2006. It might be worth mentioning that the team faced the sixth fewest fourth downs over that period.

It might be worth mentioning?!

It's a critical part of the conversation! Saying they're middle of the road in aggressiveness based on the total number of attempts without mentioning the total number of opportunities is missing half of the information.
 

swhitset

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It might be worth mentioning?!

It's a critical part of the conversation! Saying they're middle of the road in aggressiveness based on the total number of attempts without mentioning the total number of opportunities is missing half of the information.
That was the point I was clumsily trying to make lol.
 
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It's a critical part of the conversation! Saying they're middle of the road in aggressiveness based on the total number of attempts without mentioning the total number of opportunities is missing half of the information.

The most telling number is that the Packers rank eighth in percentage going on fourth down in the league since 2006.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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The most telling number is that the Packers rank eighth in percentage going on fourth down in the league since 2006.
I could be wrong here, but that percentage might even be higher if the Packers winning % was lower during that time. Teams finding themselves behind towards the end of the game, are probably more likely to attempt at least one 4th down conversion.
 

Mondio

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How long does he get to rest on that and at what point does Rodgers become the exception? I tend to think that Rodgers would have been great with any coach not on the Browns.
Forever. He will always be the coach the brought up one of the greatest QBs in the NFL. Their names will always be associated with one another. And before that he took another previously great qb that was heading in the wrong direction, reigned him back in and had him playing like he did when he was the league MVP almost 10 years prior.
 
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I've also said before, some think our RB position is set but it's not. Our rbs have yet to played a full season without getting hurt. I have a feeling Bouagnon will be the surprise at RB in camp. Competition brewing up!
 

Mondio

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hardly anybody has RB's that finish a season anymore. I like the 3 we have when healthy. If we have to rely on more than 3 in a season we're in trouble. I don't expect most teams have 4-5 really good RB's. There just aren't that many
 

Sunshinepacker

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Forever. He will always be the coach the brought up one of the greatest QBs in the NFL. Their names will always be associated with one another. And before that he took another previously great qb that was heading in the wrong direction, reigned him back in and had him playing like he did when he was the league MVP almost 10 years prior.

So MM gets credit for coaching two of the best QBs ever while failing to develop any backups for the past how many years? Again, are we saying that MM developed Rodgers and that Rodgers wouldn't have been this good with another coach? Then why can't MM find and develop decent backups for Rodgers (Flynn, as we can see in hindsight, was a product of having great players around him)?

At some point we have to admit that evidence is beginning to show that Rodgers is the main cause of Rodgers being great. And MM gets no credit for "developing" Favre. Yes, he reigned him in. Kudos for that but that's not developing.
 

Sunshinepacker

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The most telling number is that the Packers rank eighth in percentage going on fourth down in the league since 2006.

Not sure where to find this but I would love to see what percent of the time the Packers go for it when the math says they should go for it. Comparing the Packers to the rest of the league doesn't amount to a whole lot when it's been shown that the league as a whole is REALLY bad at making good choices on going for it. Ranking 8th means he's less terrible than most. The comparisons matter on this one.
 

PackerDNA

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So MM gets credit for coaching two of the best QBs ever while failing to develop any backups for the past how many years? Again, are we saying that MM developed Rodgers and that Rodgers wouldn't have been this good with another coach? Then why can't MM find and develop decent backups for Rodgers (Flynn, as we can see in hindsight, was a product of having great players around him)?

At some point we have to admit that evidence is beginning to show that Rodgers is the main cause of Rodgers being great. And MM gets no credit for "developing" Favre. Yes, he reigned him in. Kudos for that but that's not developing.


All fair points, and at the end of the day it's hard to know what's what. I'd add that in fairness to MM, maybe the QB's he had at backup weren't developed because they were fringe players and JAGS, with little or nothing to develop.
 

GleefulGary

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hardly anybody has RB's that finish a season anymore. I like the 3 we have when healthy. If we have to rely on more than 3 in a season we're in trouble. I don't expect most teams have 4-5 really good RB's. There just aren't that many

Eh. I think RB is the easiest position to find somebody decent at.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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So MM gets credit for coaching two of the best QBs ever while failing to develop any backups for the past how many years? Again, are we saying that MM developed Rodgers and that Rodgers wouldn't have been this good with another coach? Then why can't MM find and develop decent backups for Rodgers (Flynn, as we can see in hindsight, was a product of having great players around him)?

At some point we have to admit that evidence is beginning to show that Rodgers is the main cause of Rodgers being great. And MM gets no credit for "developing" Favre. Yes, he reigned him in. Kudos for that but that's not developing.

DNA pretty much hit on it, how much talent has MM had to try and develop into a solid QB? Besides AR, Brian Brohm was the only QB drafted before the 5th rd on MM's watch and like so many QB's out of college, Brohm just didn't have it. Just because the Packers draft a QB or sign an UDFA, doesn't mean MM is going to turn him into a FHOF QB. Maybe that is the mindset that the Packers and fans need to get themselves out of, just because you draft a QB, doesn't mean you will be able to develop him into a successful NFL QB.
 

GleefulGary

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So MM gets credit for coaching two of the best QBs ever while failing to develop any backups for the past how many years? Again, are we saying that MM developed Rodgers and that Rodgers wouldn't have been this good with another coach? Then why can't MM find and develop decent backups for Rodgers (Flynn, as we can see in hindsight, was a product of having great players around him)?

At some point we have to admit that evidence is beginning to show that Rodgers is the main cause of Rodgers being great. And MM gets no credit for "developing" Favre. Yes, he reigned him in. Kudos for that but that's not developing.

I think McCarthy was good at developing QB's under the old CBA rules. These new rules have hampered him, and he can't do his QB school like he used to.

Hundley is tricky because he obviously has talent. Good arm, good legs, even startling good accuracy in occasion...but he could not handle pressure at all. It's hard to know that until he gets under pressure, and as long as Rodgers was healthy, Hundley was never going to get that chance. It's one of those things you can't coach out of a guy either.

I guess what I'm saying is some guys look really good in practice, and then suck in the game. Some are the opposite. You never know until they're in that situation, so it's hard for me to fault McCarthy too much for that. I think it's obvious now he knows Hundley can't do it, and he found a replacement for him in Kizer. So it's not like McCarthy is completely blind.
 
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PackFan2

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If we have to rely on more than 3 in a season we're in trouble.
That's the thing. We had to rely more than 3, we had to pull into reserves and lean on Cobb (correct me if I am wrong) and Devante Mays (who fumbled). Bears have a nice one two punch in Cohen and Howard, one takes reps to fresh legs and jeremy Langford was on bench. Vikings have Mckinnion (who left)and Murray with Emerging rb in Cook coming in next season with injury.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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That's the thing. We had to rely more than 3, we had to pull into reserves and lean on Cobb (correct me if I am wrong) and Devante Mays (who fumbled). Bears have a nice one two punch in Cohen and Howard, one takes reps to fresh legs and jeremy Langford was on bench. Vikings have Mckinnion (who left)and Murray with Emerging rb in Cook coming in next season with injury.
We have Jones, Williams and Monty, can't ask for much more depth than that. Try to find a guy with some potential, stash him on the PS. I like our RB depth more now than I did 2-4 years ago, when we were mainly relying on Eddie Lacy and Starks to stay healthy and carry the load.
 
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PackFan2

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We have Jones, Williams and Monty, can't ask for much more depth than that. Try to find a guy with some potential, stash him on the PS. I like our RB depth more now than I did 2-4 years ago, when we were mainly relying on Eddie Lacy and Starks to stay healthy and carry the load.
Yeah we have those three but the thing is those three can all go down in ONE game. And we've seen it happen last season. Monty gets injuried, William's takes over for like a week, gets injuried. Jones takes over does well, gets injuried. Monty attempts to play. We were living on the edge o felt like. Didnt have that feeling with Lacy and injury/fumble prone Starks. I'd like to see at least one more season of those three if they can stay healthy. I'd stash Bouagnon amd May's on the PSquad.
 
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