Training Camp Position Battles

sschind

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Rumors were that he has a dad like Lonzo Ball's and that he refused to play special teams at ND. I have no idea, just passing on what I've read. Also he's apparently really smart and NFL coaches hate players that are smarter than them (unless you're an All-Pro QB).

For a second there I was thinking we were still talking about Scott and I was like Wait...WTF...a punter not wanting to be on special teams!
 

PackerDNA

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Not sure there's a ton of hype on Gilbert? Being better than Fackrell is a low bar tbh. I just liked what I saw when he did get to play, and Bakh thought he was good. That's good enough for me.

I don't get calling Biegel a better version of Jake Ryan. They play a completely different position and aren't very similar?


Nothing yet but hype and hope. Been too much of that- it's the main reason why a team with the GOAT at the most important position hasn't even been to a SB in going on 8 years. Biegel is a LB like Ryan.. Unless the guys a total A hole, his team mates will talk him up, so, not good enough for me. Been a lot of people at 1265 running their mouths about Gilbert. For him, like the rest, do it. Fackrell was a guy I wanted and was thrilled when they got him. He's been a major dissapointment.
 

GleefulGary

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Nothing yet but hype and hope. Been too much of that- it's the main reason why a team with the GOAT at the most important position hasn't even been to a SB in going on 8 years. Biegel is a LB like Ryan.. Unless the guys a total A hole, his team mates will talk him up, so, not good enough for me. Been a lot of people at 1265 running their mouths about Gilbert. For him, like the rest, do it. Fackrell was a guy I wanted and was thrilled when they got him. He's been a major dissapointment.

Jake Ryan is an ILB and Biegel is an edge. They're not at all similar.

Teammates rarely talk bad about each other, but they also don't always go out of their way to talk somebody up either.

His play on the field has been good. I'll go by that.
 

Mondio

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If nothing else, Gilbert and Biegel look to have more energy or pop when they actually go to make a play. I'll take that energy and effort all day in anybody. They may not turn into Von Miller, but i'm going to bet on them being more than Jayrone Elliot too. Hard effort alone will make you plays in this league and I think Biegel has that. I think there must have been something with Gilbert that made them think, he needs to be held back and focus on some things for the long haul, because physically he has always looked better than Fackrell to me last year preseason and then end of season when he was called up.
 

PackerDNA

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Jake Ryan is an ILB and Biegel is an edge. They're not at all similar.

Teammates rarely talk bad about each other, but they also don't always go out of their way to talk somebody up either.

His play on the field has been good. I'll go by that.


-they're both LB's
- 2 games, looking great in shorts, and having your team mates and coaches gush about you does not a career make
- Gilbert may end up better than Elliott, but as of now, his career arc and small sample size are about the same.

I hope you guys are right and these two end up being good players. Hell, if Gilbert does nothing but be effective as a situational pass rusher this season, I'll call that a huge plus. But we've been here before. All I'm saying is do it.
 

GleefulGary

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Ryan and Biegel don’t play anywhere close to the same position. If you can’t conprehend that, then nothing else is worth discussing.
 

RRyder

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Ryan and Biegel don’t play anywhere close to the same position. If you can’t conprehend that, then nothing else is worth discussing.

Pretty sure all hes saying is they're around each other a lot going to meetings etc etc etc and as such a guy will generally talk good publicly about a guy he has to be around a lot.

Also let's wait till training camp before getting excited about whether a guys improved
 

PackerDNA

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Ryan and Biegel don’t play anywhere close to the same position. If you can’t conprehend that, then nothing else is worth discussing.


No need to get condescending and pissy. Simple statement of fact- no matter their roles, look on any team roster. They have the designation "LB"; they're both Linebackers.
 

GleefulGary

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Pretty sure all hes saying is they're around each other a lot going to meetings etc etc etc and as such a guy will generally talk good publicly about a guy he has to be around a lot.

Also let's wait till training camp before getting excited about whether a guys improved

No.

1) He said Biegel reminds him of Ryan.

2) Bakhtiari was the one who made the statement about Gilbert being good. Neither Ryan or Biegel were involved.
 

GleefulGary

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No need to get condescending and pissy. Simple statement of fact- no matter their roles, look on any team roster. They have the designation "LB"; they're both Linebackers.

Ok. Can you let me help you?

This is going to be really simplified, but bear with me. In a 3-4 system you have 2 ILB and 2 OLB. The 2 ILB, one is a mike, and the other can be a Sam or Will, but is usually a Will. You could also run 2 Mike’s in there, it really just depends on scheme and the players strength and weaknesses. The OLB’s are called OLB, but it’s not the same as a 4-3 OLB (Sam and Will). A 3-4 OLB should be referred to as an Edge, which is essentially the same thing as a DE.

DE = Edge = 3-4 OLB. Different names, same position.

Jake Ryan is more of a Sam than a Will imo, and he plays inside in a 3-4 scheme. He could probably play either Sam or Mike in a 4-3.

Vince Biegel is an Edge. He’s playing either a 3-4 OLB or 4-3 DE. He cannot cover or play in space well.

So yes, they’re both listed as LB’s on the roster, but they play very different positions and outside of being white and from the Midwest, don’t have much in common.
 

PackerDNA

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I'll bet that attitude- if that's how you talk to people face to face- gets you knocked on your *** quite often.
I'm well aware of your points. Besides being more than intelligent enough to handle it- fast or slow- I know the game. You made my point in the last sentence, thereby agreeing with me. Your points- while different points- are widely acknowledged .
 

Dantés

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I'll bet that attitude- if that's how you talk to people face to face- gets you knocked on your *** quite often.
I'm well aware of your points. Besides being more than intelligent enough to handle it- fast or slow- I know the game. You made my point in the last sentence, thereby agreeing with me. Your points- while different points- are widely acknowledged .

If you’ve got all this (and I don’t doubt you), why did you say before that regardless of anything else, they’re both designated “LB?” That’s like saying that Julius Peppers reminds me of Vince Wilfork because they’re both designated “DL.”
 

Pokerbrat2000

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I hope I don't have to go "Ksenia Sobchak" in here!

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PackerDNA

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If you’ve got all this (and I don’t doubt you), why did you say before that regardless of anything else, they’re both designated “LB?” That’s like saying that Julius Peppers reminds me of Vince Wilfork because they’re both designated “DL.”


I would have thought it was as obvious as the point/statement. But then again, I'm sloooow. LOL!
 

Pokerbrat2000

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One guy I kind of forget about at WR is DeAngelo Yancey. Probably a darkhorse to make the final 53, but he has a year in the system, was a decent receiver at Purdue and hit the rookie camp leaner and faster. The WR race will be interesting. We have 2 clear cut guys, Adams and Cobb. Allison would appear to be #3, but after that you have 3 big rookies and 3-4 guys with experience in the system.
 

Dantés

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One guy I kind of forget about at WR is DeAngelo Yancey. Probably a darkhorse to make the final 53, but he has a year in the system, was a decent receiver at Purdue and hit the rookie camp leaner and faster. The WR race will be interesting. We have 2 clear cut guys, Adams and Cobb. Allison would appear to be #3, but after that you have 3 big rookies and 3-4 guys with experience in the system.

And on Allison, I agree with what you said but if one of the young players comes on fast and shows that they could be relied upon in the offense, he could easily be gone. It would seem that his roster spot is largely dependent on the youngsters not being ready. Of course, he is young himself, but easily the least talented of that bunch.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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And on Allison, I agree with what you said but if one of the young players comes on fast and shows that they could be relied upon in the offense, he could easily be gone. It would seem that his roster spot is largely dependent on the youngsters not being ready. Of course, he is young himself, but easily the least talented of that bunch.
Agreed. Being in the system is an edge, but doesn't make up for talent. If the rookies catch on fast, they could easily pass both Yancey and Davis if those 2 haven't stepped up their game. Clark is going to be a tough call. He has a ton of potential, but just hasn't been in football long enough I am afraid. I see the Packers trying to stash 2 WR's on the Practice squad, with the possibility of carrying 7 if the talent warrants it. Graham being considered by some as a TE/WR might keep it at 6 though.
 

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Are you really comparing the development of Goff and Hundley? Goff was the first pick of the 2016 draft and Hundley was the 147th pick in the 2015 draft. There is a reason for that. Sure, it would have been great if Hundley had come in last year and played as good as Goff did, but Goff is the better player and a player with more NFL snaps than Hundley had. I would also suspect that Goff was viewed as the Rams starter and given a ton of attention. Hundley was a 5th round pick and given backup (2nd and 3rd string) attention and reps.

While I don't think Hundley will ever be very good, if he had to play again this season, I would predict he would be improved, but not as much as Goff did from his first season to his next. I wouldn't put that all on MM, your lemonade is only going to be as good as the lemons you put into it.

No, I was comparing a coach modifying an offense to best utilize players.
 

Sunshinepacker

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How are you supposed to develop a QB when you don't have time to develop him? you can't take the time to work with him because you have to take that time to get the rest of the team ready to play that week. Unless you think it's a good idea to develop 5th round picks at the expense of the rest of the team and starting QB? you act like all these other teams are cranking out late round draft picks as good QB's??

So, since the CBA applies to EVERY team, are we to assume that no other coach in the NFL is able to develop QBs when they already have a starting QB?
 

Pokerbrat2000

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So, since the CBA applies to EVERY team, are we to assume that no other coach in the NFL is able to develop QBs when they already have a starting QB?
No, but it's more difficult. McCarthy was asked that question in an interview and acknowledged that the CBA has made it more difficult to spend the time he once could with QB's.
 
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Then why can't MM find and develop decent backups for Rodgers (Flynn, as we can see in hindsight, was a product of having great players around him)?

Flynn solely being successful in Green Bay could be attributed to McCarthy's work with him as well.

Not sure where to find this but I would love to see what percent of the time the Packers go for it when the math says they should go for it.

Feel free to use Pro Football Reference's play index to figure it out.

So, if the CBA is hampering him, then the Packers should either change the CBA to unleash MM's true ability (impossible) or find a coach that can work under the current CBA.

I highly doubt the Packers are capable of changing the CBA. How many other teams have had success developing quarterbacks drafted on day three over the past seven years???

No need to get condescending and pissy.

Unfortunately that's the only way JJ can deal with people not agreeing with him.

And on Allison, I agree with what you said but if one of the young players comes on fast and shows that they could be relied upon in the offense, he could easily be gone. It would seem that his roster spot is largely dependent on the youngsters not being ready. Of course, he is young himself, but easily the least talented of that bunch.

I fully expect Allison to make the roster as I don't believe all three rookies will pass him on the depth chart during the first season with the team.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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I actually think one of the best head to head battles will be between Kizer and Hundley. I think most assume that after seeing Hundley play last year and the fact that we traded a former #1 pick for Kizer, it is a done deal that Kizer will backup Rodgers. I wouldn't be so quick to eliminate Hundley. Yes, he didn't look very good last season, but that playing experience added to being in the Packer system for 3 years, will benefit him quite a bit. I expect both of them to see a lot of preseason action and a real battle.
 
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