Training Camp 2019 notes

[sschind]

Starting to wonder about all these running backs, are Jones and Williams hamstring injuries more then we are being led to believe?

• Aaron Jones
• Jamaal Williams
• Tra Carson
• Dexter Williams
• Corey Grant
• Darrin Hall
• Keith Ford

I hope not because if we are counting on any of these besides Jones or maybe 1 of the 2 Williams' to be our guy we are in trouble. I'm tempted to say we could probably weather the loss of Adams more so than Jones.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

He totally can-- just not in the way that "slot receivers" traditionally have success.

Unfortunately I don't believe there's any way, traditional or not, for Allison to have success lining up in the slot.

Not sure about the rest of the details, just that #12 said that he is very happy to have the joint practices done.

Rodgers will be happy to hear that MLF wants to bring in multiple teams for joint practices in the future

Starting to wonder about all these running backs, are Jones and Williams hamstring injuries more then we are being led to believe?

• Aaron Jones
• Jamaal Williams
• Tra Carson
• Dexter Williams
• Corey Grant
• Darrin Hall
• Keith Ford

I don't believe the Packers adding running backs is a result of the injuries to Jones and Williams being more severe than reported but rather MLF wanting to have a fierce competition for roster spots at the position. Jamaal might end up being a surprise cut.

I'm tempted to say we could probably weather the loss of Adams more so than Jones.

I completely disagree with that point of view.

 

[Do7]

I hope not because if we are counting on any of these besides Jones or maybe 1 of the 2 Williams' to be our guy we are in trouble. I'm tempted to say we could probably weather the loss of Adams more so than Jones.

Let's just pray we don't lose either this season.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Starting to wonder about all these running backs, are Jones and Williams hamstring injuries more then we are being led to believe?

• Aaron Jones
• Jamaal Williams
• Tra Carson
• Dexter Williams
• Corey Grant
• Darrin Hall
• Keith Ford

Possible, but another simple explanation is that they need a lot of rushing reps, especially for the OL, and thus need bodies to execute those reps.

Some of both, I'd say.

If you figure between the roster and PS they'll be carrying at least 4 RBs given Jones propensity to injury, maybe a pseudo 5th. if Vitale is kept for blocking back/special teams duty.

This is the second training camp where Jones has missed time with a hamstring on top of 3 knee sprains. It would be foolish to not develop a contingency plan. Cory Grant ran around 4.3 at his Pro Day and busted a few long runs in Jacksonville in limited action. Darrin Hall ran in the 4.4's at his Pro Day and busted several long runs at Pitt. These two guys in particular look like a search to recreate some of the Jones dynamic.

Carson and Ford are more in the Jamaal Williams mold, one cut between the tackles physical backs, more contingencies.

Dexter Williams is pretty much an unkown quantity until real tackling beings tomorrow.

To Dante's point, Carson went out of with neck spasms in the Texans practice to go along with Jones and Williams, with Vitale taking snaps at RB. We're one day away from the first preseason game fielding a new offensive scheme. You need guys who can take it through its paces. Vitale is not that guy.

You want to develop contingencies through competition; you want to be able to be able to run the offense tomorrow and going through preseason if Jones/J. Willams are limited. Even if they're healthy they probably don't see much second half action in preseason.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Let's just pray we don't lose either this season.

I think its a safe bet that history has proven that getting a RB through an entire season healthy is difficult to do for the Packers. Add to that Jone's injury history and the Packers can't really rely on him to be the workhorse back that some posters have proposed that he needs to be. We may be lucky to see him have a 150 carry season. For comparison, Ezekiel Elliott had 304 carries in 15 games. If MLF plans on running the ball more than MM did, he is going to need to carry 3 RB's plus Vitale and stash at least one capable back on the PS.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Jamaal might end up being a surprise cut.

I suppose that's possible, but if we're going to assume his sitting with the hamstring is precautionary I highly doubt he'd be a cut based on past performance. He does a lot of things well. It's easy to look at a 3.8 rushing average last season and see a possible upgrade, but he finished last season with strong games in weeks 15 and 16.

We'll see what happens with all these guys in a new scheme with possibly two new OL starters as we move through preseason.

 

[GleefulGary]

Wimm, why don't you think Allison can be successful as a slot?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I suppose that's possible, but if we're going to assume his sitting with the hamstring is precautionary I highly doubt he'd be a cut based on past performance. He does a lot of things well. It's easy to look at a 3.8 rushing average last season and see a possible upgrade, but he finished last season with strong games in weeks 15 and 16.

We'll see what happens with all these guys in a new scheme with possibly two new OL starters as we move through preseason.

I don't expect Jamaal to be cut but with the Packers seemingly not being satisfied with the talent level at the position entering camp it's not outside the bounds of possibility either.

Wimm, why don't you think Allison can be successful as a slot?

I have explained it in several posts.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Wimm, why don't you think Allison can be successful as a slot?

I'll take this one, not everybody obviously will filter through the posts to see an explanation Wimm.

GMo has poor agility measurables is mainly why I think he'll get some opportunities there but eventually get beaten out of the slot position by better more agile talent on the team. For instance, Davis has an elite 3-cone. If he's not trialed there it would be criminal. Same with Moore.

In comparison, Gmo has lead in his shoes.

 

[Mondio]

i don't know who the slot will be or if it really matters. I imagine we'll see at least 4-5 different guys running something from that position every game so what does it really matter? but Gmo isn't quick, but he's long, has a big catch radius and if he can play position, he'll be just fine. and maybe they'll just run him thru the middle to take guys with him and run someone else underneath from somewhere else. Gmo may not be quick, and people might look at his 40 time, but he'll beat you deep and run a way from you if you're not paying attention.

and if he gets body position on a defender, he should win when the ball is thrown.

 

[Dantés]

I'll take this one, not everybody obviously will filter through the posts to see an explanation Wimm.

GMo has poor agility measurables is mainly why I think he'll get some opportunities there but eventually get beaten out of the slot position by better more agile talent on the team. For instance, Davis has an elite 3-cone. If he's not trialed there it would be criminal. Same with Moore.

In comparison, Gmo has lead in his shoes.

I am all for using metrics to predict the success of prospects wherever those metrics tend to be predictive, but I think in the case of Allison, that's history. We can debate whether or not the slot is the best fit for him, but he's demonstrated pretty thoroughly that his actual on field agility far surpasses his three cone result.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I am all for using metrics to predict the success of prospects wherever those metrics tend to be predictive, but I think in the case of Allison, that's history. We can debate whether or not the slot is the best fit for him, but he's demonstrated pretty thoroughly that his actual on field agility far surpasses his three cone result.

Fully agree. Sure, metrics can tell you something about a player, but its not the full story. Plenty of great "metric guys" have failed in the NFL and vice versa with the guys who didn't do so well, having great careers.

While I would agree that Allison's story is really yet to be written, I think he could be prove the neigh sayers wrong, just as much as he could end up just being average.

 

[Mondio]

I'm definitely optimistic for Gmo. Seemed to be going about it the right way, working hard, gaining opportunities and using them. Not yet a go to guy, but certainly dependable and rising. Started out really well last year and then was hurt. So is he going to continue that rise? pick up where he left off? was that just a tease? a sign of what's to come? I guess we're going to find out.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

I'm less optimistic with Gmo, not just the measurables. Historically the #2 for the Packers does well with consistent targets from Rodgers. So I think Gmo has benefited from opportunity and familiarity with Rodgers. With more experience under these newbies belts who have better measurables I think Gmo will be an afterthought. If not at the start of the season, then certainly near the end. Just my opinion.

 

[Dantés]

Fully agree. Sure, metrics can tell you something about a player, but its not the full story. Plenty of great "metric guys" have failed in the NFL and vice versa with the guys who didn't do so well, having great careers.

While I would agree that Allison's story is really yet to be written, I think he could be prove the neigh sayers wrong, just as much as he could end up just being average.

It's strange that I find myself in this position, as I tend to cite metrics more than almost anyone when it comes to the draft. However-- once a guy starts showing you what he can do in the league, the metrics need to take a back seat.

Allison is a good example in regards to another metric-- the forty. His time was terrible at the combine, and yet last season he was tracked with one of the fastest straight line speeds in the league on a deep pass.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Per Demovsky:

RB Cory Grant was waived; OLB Kendall Donnerson waived-injured. The Grant release was evidently making room for RB Keith Ford claimed off waivers from the Colts. Ibrahim Campbell was brought back and expected to start the season on PUP recovering from an ACL.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/_/name/gb/green-bay-packers

 

[AmishMafia]

It's strange that I find myself in this position, as I tend to cite metrics more than almost anyone when it comes to the draft. However-- once a guy starts showing you what he can do in the league, the metrics need to take a back seat.

Allison is a good example in regards to another metric-- the forty. His time was terrible at the combine, and yet last season he was tracked with one of the fastest straight line speeds in the league on a deep pass.

Techniques in running a 40 does not translate to football. Training for the 40 pre draft takes a tenth of a second off. Guys seem to run different in pads as well. Until they start playing in games, 40 times are all you have to go on.

 

[GleefulGary]

I'll take this one, not everybody obviously will filter through the posts to see an explanation Wimm.

GMo has poor agility measurables is mainly why I think he'll get some opportunities there but eventually get beaten out of the slot position by better more agile talent on the team. For instance, Davis has an elite 3-cone. If he's not trialed there it would be criminal. Same with Moore.

In comparison, Gmo has lead in his shoes.

And? Who cares about their numbers?

I've seen Allison be able to get open by running precise routes, having great timing and feel for zone coverage, and just being savvy.

Now don't get me wrong, I love testing numbers, but after a few years in the league I don't care about them. They're predictives for scouting, nothing more. Based on his 40, Jordy should've never been an elite deep threat. Antonio Brown shouldn't be an elite WR, especially downfield. Y'all need to get off PFF, get off 40 times and 3-cones, and watch some tape. Tape alone tells the truth.

 

[Dantés]

Techniques in running a 40 does not translate to football. Training for the 40 pre draft takes a tenth of a second off. Guys seem to run different in pads as well. Until they start playing in games, 40 times are all you have to go on.

You can watch their game speed too. But yeah, you have less to go on and then they play in the league and you have a lot more.

To use a really obvious illustration-- when looking at a FA, an NFL team is going to pay far more attention to the player's NFL game tape than to his draft profile.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

And? Who cares about their numbers?

I've seen Allison be able to get open by running precise routes, having great timing and feel for zone coverage, and just being savvy.

Now don't get me wrong, I love testing numbers, but after a few years in the league I don't care about them. They're predictives for scouting, nothing more. Based on his 40, Jordy should've never been an elite deep threat. Antonio Brown shouldn't be an elite WR, especially downfield. Y'all need to get off PFF, get off 40 times and 3-cones, and watch some tape. Tape alone tells the truth.

I would argue that the best slot receivers in the last decade or so have had elite 3-cone numbers.

And? Who cares about their numbers?

I've seen Allison be able to get open by running precise routes, having great timing and feel for zone coverage, and just being savvy.

Now don't get me wrong, I love testing numbers, but after a few years in the league I don't care about them. They're predictives for scouting, nothing more. Based on his 40, Jordy should've never been an elite deep threat. Antonio Brown shouldn't be an elite WR, especially downfield. Y'all need to get off PFF, get off 40 times and 3-cones, and watch some tape. Tape alone tells the truth.

Obviously measurables do not tell the whole story. If you look at successful #2 wrs or slot receivers specifically you'll see most are near 7.0s or less for a 3-cone. Geronimo measured in the 2nd percentile for agility. 7.4s is horrible. If that's not a red flag on a wr squad that had been criticized for being amongst the slowest in the league just two seasons ago then I don't know what is. The team spending three picks on fast, agile and lengthy wrs last year tells you all you need to know about the teams dedication to Gmo.

 

[Poppa San]

I would argue that the best slot receivers in the last decade or so have had elite 3-cone numbers.


Obviously measurables do not tell the whole story. If you look at successful #2 wrs or slot receivers specifically you'll see most are near 7.0s or less for a 3-cone. Geronimo measured in the 2nd percentile for agility. 7.4s is horrible. If that's not a red flag on a wr squad that had been criticized for being amongst the slowest in the league just two seasons ago then I don't know what is. The team spending three picks on fast, agile and lengthy wrs last year tells you all you need to know about the teams dedication to Gmo.

And I bet you wouldn't have drafted this guy.

his below-average speed kept most teams wary. Sources vary on his 40-yard dash time, which was reportedly as slow as 4.71 seconds.

 

[gbgary]

no way jamaal williams gets cut this season.

 

[HardRightEdge]

And I bet you wouldn't have drafted this guy.

We don't know what Jerry Rice might have clocked in a 3-cone. Anyway, when you have site an outlier from 34 years ago

It needs to be understood that a 40 time is not the only measure of speed. What about 20 yards or 60 yards? One source, which I quoted earlier, clocked Allison at a little over 20 mph on one play last year, one of the fasted recorded in 2018. Typically, a player who can hit that speed is about a 4.0 runner in the 40. How do you account for the discrepancy?

Acceleration curves are not created equal. If the argument is his field speed is better than his 40 time its because he hits top speed down field. He's an upright long strider, not an ankle breaker, and the 3-cone reflects that. What may be perceived as field speed may be more about the kind of runner he is than a "lying" 40 time.

It comes down to what kind of slot routes do you want the guy to run. He's not a guy to snap off a 90 degree short route or an in-then-out stick route on a dime. It the other slot routes where Allison can make his money, catch radius, hands and route running on sit-downs, skinny posts, or the deep routes.

 

[Dantés]

I would argue that the best slot receivers in the last decade or so have had elite 3-cone numbers.

It would take some research, but we can find those numbers.

I'm not sure that this is true. Randall Cobb, as a relevant example, was in the 24th%.

 

[Dantés]

Jamison Crowder: 14th%

Jarvis Landry: 0th%