Training Camp 2019 notes

[GreenNGold_81]

It would take some research, but we can find those numbers.

I'm not sure that this is true. Randall Cobb, as a relevant example, was in the 24th%.

Ok, maybe I was overconfident. Lets set the bar at 7.0 or thereabouts.

Julian Edelman 6.62s is a good example.

I think Randall and most others scored around 7.0s.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Jamison Crowder: 14th%

Jarvis Landry: 0th%

Jarvis ran injured.

Jamison has looked the part, I don't know that he's amongst the best. And a 7.17 is still faster than GMo's 7.4 something.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Ok, maybe I was overconfident. Lets set the bar at 7.0 or thereabouts.

Julian Edelman 6.62s is a good example.

I think Randall and most others scored around 7.0s.

Cooper Kupp 6.75s
Adam Thielen 6.77s
Antonio Brown 6.98s
Tyreek Hill 6.53s

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

OLB Kendall Donnerson (who was waived injured) was not claimed so he reverted back to IR.

 

[Dantés]

Cooper Kupp 6.75s
Adam Thielen 6.77s
Antonio Brown 6.98s
Tyreek Hill 6.53s

I am not denying that good receivers usually have good three cone times. I am merely pointing out that there are and have been good slot players with poor three cones.

And my greater point is that it's kind of weird to me to judge Allison on his combine workout this far into his career. We have actually tape of him playing in the NFL.

 

[Dantés]

Jarvis ran injured.

Jamison has looked the part, I don't know that he's amongst the best. And a 7.17 is still faster than GMo's 7.4 something.

Jarvis did that at his pro day, where I presume he was healthy.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

I am not denying that good receivers usually have good three cone times. I am merely pointing out that there are and have been good slot players with poor three cones.

And my greater point is that it's kind of weird to me to judge Allison on his combine workout this far into his career. We have actually tape of him playing in the NFL.

And my point would be that that tape is likely around the time we were assessed to have some of the slowest receivers in the NFL.

 

[Dantés]

And my point would be that that tape is likely around the time we were assessed to have some of the slowest receivers in the NFL.

Allison recorded some of the fastest speeds of anyone in the league last year, so I find this a little curious.

Here's my point-- while I totally agree that Allison does not profile as your traditional slot receiver, he has had some success there. And the team feels like he's a fit there. So I don't understand going back to his combine. It makes more sense to me to debate what he's actually done in the field to this point.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Allison recorded some of the fastest speeds of anyone in the league last year, so I find this a little curious.

Here's my point-- while I totally agree that Allison does not profile as your traditional slot receiver, he has had some success there. And the team feels like he's a fit there. So I don't understand going back to his combine. It makes more sense to me to debate what he's actually done in the field to this point.

It this is regarding his long TD. That was straight-line speed. watch the video. What is special about his tape?

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[GleefulGary]

And my point would be that that tape is likely around the time we were assessed to have some of the slowest receivers in the NFL.

The lack of speed of our WR Corp has quite literally nothing to do with the tape Allison has shown. He can get open, he's proven it.

Furthermore, if LaFleur and Rodgers both like Allison in the slot, I'm not going to argue with them too much. They know a little more than me. You could probably send them a message about his 3-cone time though, they probably don't know.

 

[GleefulGary]

This is really simple.

Once you're an established player in the league, your testing results do not matter. Your on the field results do. So if you run slow, but show you can get open in the game, they do not care that you ran slow during a combine.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Allison recorded some of the fastest speeds of anyone in the league last year, so I find this a little curious.

Here's my point-- while I totally agree that Allison does not profile as your traditional slot receiver, he has had some success there. And the team feels like he's a fit there. So I don't understand going back to his combine. It makes more sense to me to debate what he's actually done in the field to this point.

I think historically any #2 WR for the Packers will put up numbers. Geronimo has flashed, I grant him that, but at this point I think he has benefited from having experience with Rodgers and eventually you'll see him be supplanted by these younger guys who will add more agility and overall speed. This is a prediction. Obviously, we'll see how it plays out. I'd personally rather see Gmo traded while we give MVS, Kumerow, Davis and Eq more reps with Rodgers. That way we acquire more draft capital for cheaper depth players down the road. One may argue, well what if Adams gets injured - you'd want experience back there. I just don't think Gmo would offer much of an upgrade with his limitations (again opinion) to these other guys.

 

[Dantés]

I think historically any #2 WR for the Packers will put up numbers. Geronimo has flashed, I grant him that, but at this point I think he has benefited from having experience with Rodgers and eventually you'll see him be supplanted by these younger guys who will add more agility and overall speed. This is a prediction. Obviously, we'll see how it plays out. I'd personally rather see Gmo traded while we give MVS, Kumerow, Davis and Eq more reps with Rodgers. That way we acquire more draft capital for cheaper depth players down the road. One may argue, well what if Adams gets injured - you'd want experience back there. I just don't think Gmo would offer much of an upgrade with his limitations (again opinion) to these other guys.

I share the prediction that Allison will be supplanted in time by younger receivers. That's why I had hoped he would be back on a one year deal, as he is, to serve as a bridge. No doubt he has benefited from playing with Rodgers, as do all receivers who play with him. But this debate, at least originally, was about whether or not he can play in the slot. I don't see why not.

As to your last point, I do think there's a lot of value in keeping him. I can recall the last Packers playoff game when Rodgers was basically cleaned out of healthy, quality targets. It made a difference.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

I share the prediction that Allison will be supplanted in time by younger receivers. That's why I had hoped he would be back on a one year deal, as he is, to serve as a bridge. No doubt he has benefited from playing with Rodgers, as do all receivers who play with him. But this debate, at least originally, was about whether or not he can play in the slot. I don't see why not.

As to your last point, I do think there's a lot of value in keeping him. I can recall the last Packers playoff game when Rodgers was basically cleaned out of healthy, quality targets. It made a difference.

I mean sure, play him there and see how he does. I'm not against them giving him an opportunity, I just think it will be short-lived. Any more opportunity you give GMo takes away from the younger guys, so there's some harm in keeping him as well.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

This is really simple.

Once you're an established player in the league, your testing results do not matter. Your on the field results do. So if you run slow, but show you can get open in the game, they do not care that you ran slow during a combine.

And that's why Gmo hasn't been released - he's shown he can contribute. My suggestion is these young agile guys will show more given more opportunity and familiarity with Rodgers. It's a theory.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I am not denying that good receivers usually have good three cone times. I am merely pointing out that there are and have been good slot players with poor three cones.

And my greater point is that it's kind of weird to me to judge Allison on his combine workout this far into his career. We have actually tape of him playing in the NFL.

In thinking about productive receivers who lacked athleticism Anquan Boldin came to mind: 4.73 / 7.35 at the Combine.

Landy and Boldin have certain commonalities: tough, physical, durable, YAC by throwing off tacklers. Allison does not fit that profile. And he also doesn't fit the waterbug type. Edelman is a name I see thrown around in this dicussion. Welker is the prototype running short inside routes getting YAC on separation. Welker and Edelman accumulated a lot of concussions along the way which might explain why Belchick has typically had a couple of these types on the roster.

We do have Allison tape, like this highlight tape from 2018:

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I don't believe there's a slot route in this tape; one play is hard to tell. On the subject of long speed it's hard to tell which play he hit that blazing 20 mph mark. Maybe the one at 1:23 after he regains his stride around the 15 yard mark. It's probably not one where he's looking back for the ball.

The question is whether any of this matters. Do you actually need a Welker/Edelman ankle breaker or a Landy/Boldin physical guy for underneath routes? Allison lacks quickness and physicality. What he brings is sharp route running, good hands, adjustment to the ball, big catch radius, long speed.

So, even if Allison lacks the characteristics of a prototypical slot receiver of the various types, the question is, "Does it matter?" in the Lafluer passing offense that features stack and bunch formations with combination routes. It's a concept that works off DB hesitation, rubs and picks with crossing routes, then switch it up with the play action downfield routes. The idea is to dull the DBs twitch. It's a group concept rather than a one-on-one concept where the Allison skill set can be a slot fit; the concept is that the scheme as much as the player creates separation.

Further, if you're running a cross out of a bunch or stack, is the wideout vs. slot distinction even meaningful? No, it isn't.

So, what about those short under routes in the danger zone which Tom Brady will tell you is fertile ground with the rule changes making it a little less dangerous? LaFleur might have other things in mind: TE, RB release, or rotation for matchups.

We await the results.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I don't deny that Allison has been productive during his tenure with the Packers but that was mostly lining up on the outside. There's reason to doubt he will be successful lining up in the slot on the majority of his snaps though.

I'll take this one, not everybody obviously will filter through the posts to see an explanation Wimm.

Trust me, GleefulGary knows about my reasons to not consider Allison a fit to line up in the slot.

Furthermore, if LaFleur and Rodgers both like Allison in the slot, I'm not going to argue with them too much. They know a little more than me. You could probably send them a message about his 3-cone time though, they probably don't know.

Coaches and quarterbacks have been wrong about stuff before as well.

I'd personally rather see Gmo traded while we give MVS, Kumerow, Davis and Eq more reps with Rodgers. That way we acquire more draft capital for cheaper depth players down the road.

There's no reason for the Packers to trade Allison. They should line him up on the perimeter though.

 

[Dantés]

I don't deny that Allison has been productive during his tenure with the Packers but that was mostly lining up on the outside. There's reason to doubt he will be successful lining up in the slot on the majority of his snaps though.



Trust me, GleefulGary knows about my reasons to not consider Allison a fit to line up in the slot.



Coaches and quarterbacks have been wrong about stuff before as well.



There's no reason for the Packers to trade Allison. They should line him up on the perimeter though.

I completely understand why Allison seems like a better fit outside, but the fact is that 44% of his receptions to this point in his career have come out of the slot, according to this.

So if he's been successful in that role at this level and the coaching staff likes him there, I don't understand why we should dismiss the idea over workout metrics from three years ago.

 

[GleefulGary]

Trust me, GleefulGary knows about my reasons to not consider Allison a fit to line up in the slot.
.

I haven't been here in a while, so I actually don't, but I could assume it's because PFF told you to think that way. That's how you usually go about things.

 

[HardRightEdge]

According to Demovsky, Aaron Jones is practicing today.

 

[GleefulGary]

I have a decent feeling that Tony Brown and Ka'dar Hollman will both be ahead of Josh Jackson by the end of the year. For sure Tony Brown will, imo.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I haven't been here in a while, so I actually don't, but I could assume it's because PFF told you to think that way. That's how you usually go about things.

Obviously that's way worse than considering combine results you normally fall in love with but ignore when they don't fit your narrative.

 

[Dantés]

Obviously that's way worse than considering combine results you normally fall in love with but ignore when they don't fit your narrative.

It's not inconsistent to value combine metrics more during the pre draft process and less after a guy has played actual NFL football for two seasons.

By this logic, the Steelers shouldn't have given Antonio Brown deep targets-- his combine didn't point to him having the deep speed.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It's not inconsistent to value combine metrics more during the pre draft process and less after a guy has played actual NFL football for two seasons.

By this logic, the Steelers shouldn't have given Antonio Brown deep targets-- his combine didn't point to him having the deep speed.

Agree. Players bodies change and age, what they did at the combine 1-15 years ago is really moot IMO. I still wish they made them run drills in full pads and a helmet. Obviously, the results would be different, but player A who scored better than Player's B, C and D while in shorts and a T, might not in full pads and cleats.

College guys have figured out that they can really improve their draft position and thus their pay with a good showing at the combine, so instead of working on football skills between their final game and the combine, they may be more apt to strictly work on "combine skills".

 

[Dantés]

Agree. Players bodies change and age, what they did at the combine 1-15 years ago is really moot IMO. I still wish they made them run drills in full pads and a helmet. Obviously, the results would be different, but player A who scored better than Player's B, C and D while in shorts and a T, might not in full pads and cleats.

College guys have figured out that they can really improve their draft position and thus their pay with a good showing at the combine, so instead of working on football skills between their final game and the combine, they may be more apt to strictly work on "combine skills".

I have wondered about this.

In recent years, I've seen a few guys come out who hit "can't miss" thresholds at the combine-- i.e. numbers that historically have almost always correlated to success. And a number of these guys have failed to translate to the pro game. I'm suspicious that people have figured out how to train and execute the drills so we'll that they aren't as good of an indicator as they used to be.