The offense must run through Jones and Dillon

[Heyjoe4]

I don't think of it in a specific number...but I would like to see us around or above 40% of our offensive snaps go through Dillon or Jones.

That makes sense. Ideally around a 50/50 split. But hey, this is a passing league and as we've seen, QBs are a protected species. It just makes sense to throw more than run, but not by much. The game situation will dictate that as well. Playing down 2 or 3 possessions and the pass is necessary.

That just makes the Giants' loss all the more irritating. GB was up 17-3 and 20-0 at the half. They threw way more than they ran, and that's why they lost.

 

[OldSchool101]

I don't think of it in a specific number...but I would like to see us around or above 40% of our offensive snaps go through Dillon or Jones.

That would be a severe reduction of RB usage (currently 49% on season).

We average like 64 snaps per game Offensively. That would give both RB’s about 12-13 all purpose touches each.
If Aaron and AJ are involved in the passing game at all? you are effectively saying 9-10 runs each? That’s a bit low imo
Either that or we’d Eliminate them from the passing game altogether.

If anything they need to be higher than 49% usage not dramatically lower

 

[McKnowledge]

Dillon is not a great running back to focus an offense through (he's one of the least explosive RBs in the league)

I gotta push back on this one. Dillon was drafted as a complement to Aaron Jones. He is a bruiser with adequate receiving skills. He should be utilized on 1st and 2nd downs, and nearly all of the goal line carries should go through him.

As far as "least explosive" is that your personal opinion or do you have evidence this is indeed factual?

the receivers can't get open on their own or beat one-on-one coverage yet (hopefully that improves as the season progresses), Tonyan might be a big, easy target but he's also easily covered by the defense.

You have just illustrated the frustation I feel with MLF and his playcalling. If indeed these pass catchers lack one on one separation, then why isn't the playcaller manufacturing plays to get them open. These WRs and TEs are pretty good at gaining yards after catch. Where is the manipulation of formations? MLF is forcing his personell to run an offense that does not play to their strengths. Brian Daboll can adjust according to the players at his disposal. I think MLF should take notes.

What does "playing scared" even mean on offense"?

Being too conservative. Playing the game with the intentions of not losing, but not being more agressive and seizing the victory. What the Giants did to GB in London is what the Packers should've done to them. Green Bay should bludgeon the opponents with the run game until it doesn't work. North-South, between the tackles with Dillon. Outside zone and screens with Jones. The offense needs to rely on the O-Line and RBs.

I do agree that Jones is amazing but I'm not sure the team should ask him to have 20+ touches every game.

Then why pay him that money?!

 

[mradtke66]

That's a perfect number to aim for. Sunday it was 19 (run attempts) to 39 pass attempts. Why not run more, especially with the lead and two very good RBs. I'm mystified.
.

They're trying to prevent wasting downs. When the defense is selling out to stop the run, they pass. This is a sound, base strategy when you're not killing clock at the end of the game.

Imagine an example: It's 1st and 10. You have a run called with a pass check the quarterback can switch to. You break the huddle and lineup. The quarterback notices base personnel on defense vs. 3WR, 1TE, 1RB. As the quarterback ducks under center, the defense shifts. Ever D lineman is head up on an offensive lineman. The outside linebackers are also on the line, so your 6 man group (TE included ) have a defensive hat on them. The strong safety has come down into the box. The free safety has shaded to the TE side of the formation and is only 2 steps from being in the box.

Looking at the wide receivers, you note the no. 1 CB is on the sidelines because he is nursing a bad shoulder. You have single coverage across the board. The receiver running a slant is facing a CB 10 yards off the line of scrimmage. The wide receiver running a fade is facing a cornerback playing inside leverage. The wide receiver running a hitch and go is facing a CB known for biting ******* double moves and giving up the big play.

What would you do there? Run or Pass? And if you say Run against an 8 1/2 man box against a 6 man defensive line, I'm going to question your sanity.

That's a little bit of an absurd answer, but that's the basic idea of most audibles. If the numbers are in your favor, you run. If they are not, you don't. If you call slants and the CBs lineup to take away slants, run fades or outs.

Obviously we can go down a rabbit hole, but the short version is the Giants were daring us to throw and selling out to stop the run. 3 incomplete passes aren't appreciably different to 3 carries for 2 yards each.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I gotta push back on this one. Dillon was drafted as a complement to Aaron Jones. He is a bruiser with adequate receiving skills. He should be utilized on 1st and 2nd downs, and nearly all of the goal line carries should go through him.

As far as "least explosive" is that your personal opinion or do you have evidence this is indeed factual?



You have just illustrated the frustation I feel with MLF and his playcalling. If indeed these pass catchers lack one on one separation, then why isn't the playcaller manufacturing plays to get them open. These WRs and TEs are pretty good at gaining yards after catch. Where is the manipulation of formations? MLF is forcing his personell to run an offense that does not play to their strengths. Brian Daboll can adjust according to the players at his disposal. I think MLF should take notes.


Being too conservative. Playing the game with the intentions of not losing, but not being more agressive and seizing the victory. What the Giants did to GB in London is what the Packers should've done to them. Green Bay should bludgeon the opponents with the run game until it doesn't work. North-South, between the tackles with Dillon. Outside zone and screens with Jones. The offense needs to rely on the O-Line and RBs.


Then why pay him that money?!

Ugh, yeah. I think the ideal breakdown is Jones - 20 touches and Dillon 10 touches. First time I've heard someone described as non-explosive. Carrying a football and 4 or 5 defenders on your back, on your legs for 5 or 6 yards isn't explosive? Anyway your reply was spot on.

 

[tynimiller]

That would be a severe reduction of RB usage (currently 49% on season).

We average like 64 snaps per game Offensively. That would give both RB’s about 12-13 all purpose touches each.
If Aaron and AJ are involved in the passing game at all? you are effectively saying 9-10 runs each? That’s a bit low imo
Either that or we’d Eliminate them from the passing game altogether.

If anything they need to be higher than 49% usage not dramatically lower

Apologies when I typed I was supposed to hit a 5 and hit a 4. Still I never did the math to see we essentially are doing that already. Type to rethink it and up it I guess.

 

[Heyjoe4]

They're trying to prevent wasting downs. When the defense is selling out to stop the run, they pass. This is a sound, base strategy when you're not killing clock at the end of the game.

Imagine an example: It's 1st and 10. You have a run called with a pass check the quarterback can switch to. You break the huddle and lineup. The quarterback notices base personnel on defense vs. 3WR, 1TE, 1RB. As the quarterback ducks under center, the defense shifts. Ever D lineman is head up on an offensive lineman. The outside linebackers are also on the line, so your 6 man group (TE included ) have a defensive hat on them. The strong safety has come down into the box. The free safety has shaded to the TE side of the formation and is only 2 steps from being in the box.

Looking at the wide receivers, you note the no. 1 CB is on the sidelines because he is nursing a bad shoulder. You have single coverage across the board. The receiver running a slant is facing a CB 10 yards off the line of scrimmage. The wide receiver running a fade is facing a cornerback playing inside leverage. The wide receiver running a hitch and go is facing a CB known for biting ******* double moves and giving up the big play.

What would you do there? Run or Pass? And if you say Run against an 8 1/2 man box against a 6 man defensive line, I'm going to question your sanity.

That's a little bit of an absurd answer, but that's the basic idea of most audibles. If the numbers are in your favor, you run. If they are not, you don't. If you call slants and the CBs lineup to take away slants, run fades or outs.

Obviously we can go down a rabbit hole, but the short version is the Giants were daring us to throw and selling out to stop the run. 3 incomplete passes aren't appreciably different to 3 carries for 2 yards each.

Is that the D formation the Giants were in on that three and out, every down? I kinda doubt it. The Packers burned all of 13 seconds on that drive, and sent their already beat up D right back on the field. They didn't have a chance to catch their breaths.

It's rare that a D will sell out for the run to that extent on multiple downs. I know you meant it to be an extreme example of where the QB would certainly audible to pass, but that's one play and I'm not sure the Giants ever showed that D formation. Maybe on first down but not on second and third.

Anyway, MLF has to find ways to get Jones and Dillon more involved. If he can't.... well that's a whole other problem.

 

[mradtke66]

Is that the D formation the Giants' were in on that three and out, every down? I kinda doubt it. The Packers burned all of 13 seconds on that drive, and sent their already beat up D right back on the field. They didn't have a chance to catch their breaths.

No, but what I was trying to point out the extreme. I can probably write up a similar absurd example where the offense should run regardless of the called play.

When it comes to picking run or pass, such an absurd alignment isn't needed. Against base offensive personnel, an 8 man box tips the balance in favor of the defense. You've got 6 on the line, the full back, and the ball carrier. That's 8 vs 8. Can you run against that sometimes and win? Sure. It could also perfectly setup the MLB meeting the running back in the hole at the line for no gain.

Yes, if they ran on all 3 downs for 0 to 2 yards per carrier, a little more game clock would have gotten chewed up. However, the defense would have same real-world of time to rest. A 40 second play clock is the same in both cases.

 

[milani]

This is the same defense we have seen for years. What happened to being more aggresive?

I agree. Most of the last 5 seasons have been less aggressive. But there are games in which the opponent's passing attack can affect that type of defense. But there are obvious cases in which you should be aggressive and pressuring. When Love started for Rodgers last season no way were the Chiefs going to sit back. Adams or no Adams. And the same goes with all those Brett Hundley games. I sometimes think the last two DCs watched old Capers clips when our D sent the house and got burned.

 

[milani]

That makes sense. Ideally around a 50/50 split. But hey, this is a passing league and as we've seen, QBs are a protected species. It just makes sense to throw more than run, but not by much. The game situation will dictate that as well. Playing down 2 or 3 possessions and the pass is necessary.

That just makes the Giants' loss all the more irritating. GB was up 17-3 and 20-0 at the half. They threw way more than they ran, and that's why they lost.

It hurts. Even though the Giants drove before the half we eked out a 3 in just seconds. It was as if WE were the team down by 14.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I gotta push back on this one. Dillon was drafted as a complement to Aaron Jones. He is a bruiser with adequate receiving skills. He should be utilized on 1st and 2nd downs, and nearly all of the goal line carries should go through him.

As far as "least explosive" is that your personal opinion or do you have evidence this is indeed factual?

Last year there were 49 running backs with 200+ carries; he was 48th out of 49 in 10+ yard runs. He was 2nd in 4+ yard carries but I don't know how sustainable a rushing attack is when you're relying on a guy who has proven he can't generate explosive runs at even close to a league average rate among other high usage running backs.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Ugh, yeah. I think the ideal breakdown is Jones - 20 touches and Dillon 10 touches. First time I've heard someone described as non-explosive. Carrying a football and 4 or 5 defenders on your back, on your legs for 5 or 6 yards isn't explosive? Anyway your reply was spot on.

The idea of a good running back is to have the guy not have to carry 4 or 5 guys on his back; otherwise that guy is the fullback. Go look at my above reply for absolute evidence that he's not very explosive.

 

[OldSchool101]

Apologies when I typed I was supposed to hit a 5 and hit a 4. Still I never did the math to see we essentially are doing that already. Type to rethink it and up it I guess.

Gotcha. Well 40% usage would be closer if we are talking rushing. That’s about 25 rushes per game or so. We’ve been averaging about 5-6 passes per game. Id just like to see us move that up a tick. I like those little 5-6 yard chunks where the RB finds a hold between LB’s then he turns around and sits in it as the ball sticks him.

 

[Heyjoe4]

No, but what I was trying to point out the extreme. I can probably write up a similar absurd example where the offense should run regardless of the called play.

When it comes to picking run or pass, such an absurd alignment isn't needed. Against base offensive personnel, an 8 man box tips the balance in favor of the defense. You've got 6 on the line, the full back, and the ball carrier. That's 8 vs 8. Can you run against that sometimes and win? Sure. It could also perfectly setup the MLB meeting the running back in the hole at the line for no gain.

Yes, if they ran on all 3 downs for 0 to 2 yards per carrier, a little more game clock would have gotten chewed up. However, the defense would have same real-world of time to rest. A 40 second play clock is the same in both cases.

Good point, clock time versus snap time. And yeah, in an 8 on 8 situation, well that's just begging for pass. Unless someone on the D drops after the snap, that leaves two corners and a one high safety. Rodgers should be able to dominate on downs like that, even with inexperienced receivers.

 

[Heyjoe4]

The idea of a good running back is to have the guy not have to carry 4 or 5 guys on his back; otherwise that guy is the fullback. Go look at my above reply for absolute evidence that he's not very explosive.

With all respect, it's your opinion, not "absolute evidence". If your opinion is that Dillon isn't explosive, fine. I just disagree. And "explosive" is a subjective term anyway. It's about opinion, not evidence.

It's also my opinion that GB has one of the best RB duos in football. So rather than talking about using them more, MLF should simply use them more.

 

[Heyjoe4]

My opinion is the Rushes are about right without splitting hairs. I’d like to see the duo get 7-10 pass targets per contest
~25 carries is about correct IF we are having relative success.

Yeah as long as Jones/Dillon are getting somewhere around 35ish touches/pass attempts per game, this team will win a lot more than it loses.

 

[OldSchool101]

With all respect, it's your opinion, not "absolute evidence". If your opinion is that Dillon isn't explosive, fine. I just disagree. And "explosive" is a subjective term anyway. It's about opinion, not evidence.

It's also my opinion that GB has one of the best RB duos in football. So rather than talking about using them more, MLF should simply use them more.

I’m explosive. I don’t know if that’s pertinent here?

 

[Heyjoe4]

I’m explosive. I don’t know if that’s pertinent here?

It's still subjective OldSchool, but nice try!

 

[mradtke66]

Good point, clock time versus snap time. And yeah, in an 8 on 8 situation, well that's just begging for pass. Unless someone on the D drops after the snap, that leaves two corners and a one high safety. Rodgers should be able to dominate on downs like that, even with inexperienced receivers.

And that numbers game is why Jones and Dillon had so few carries. The exact number varies--nickel vs. 3WR/1TE/1RB means 7 on 7, for example, but the Giants were playing the numbers game to invite the pass.

And pass we did.

For the most part, Rodgers did dominate. He made the right checks and RPO choices, but our wide receivers aren't doing their job well enough. A perfectly thrown ball is worthless if the corner completely takes away the receiver.

To force defenses out of heavy boxes, we have to take those shots downfield to loosen them up. But until we can hurt the opposition enough, they'll load up to stop the run and those under routes and more or less shutdown the offense.

 

[OldSchool101]

It's still subjective OldSchool, but nice try!

I did run a 4.55 in a H.S indoor track meet (weather related) when I was 16yrs old (I was an 800 guy, I had just talked my coach into trying me in a sprint)
2nd place runner was a 4.53 (which pissed me off) and we had a 19 year old kid from Holmen run a 4.39! He looked like an NFL athlete and our track Coach was complaining to the official about him being College age.

I weighed about 150lb soaking wet and Dillon weighs +97 pounds more and ran a 4.51. That’s really crazy.

 

[milani]

Last year there were 49 running backs with 200+ carries; he was 48th out of 49 in 10+ yard runs. He was 2nd in 4+ yard carries but I don't know how sustainable a rushing attack is when you're relying on a guy who has proven he can't generate explosive runs at even close to a league average rate among other high usage running backs.

He can certainly be explosive but defenses figure to expect that one style and the play call is almost given away. We had 4th and goal in Minnesota this year. About a yard and he was stoned. A one back set inside the 5 yard line is not going to work against every defense. You can use Dillon, or Jones, or a TE but be more creative. I give MM rare credit but against the Falcons in the 2010 playoff he put BJ Raji in front of John Kuhn. And the Falcons were helpless.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

With all respect, it's your opinion, not "absolute evidence". If your opinion is that Dillon isn't explosive, fine. I just disagree. And "explosive" is a subjective term anyway. It's about opinion, not evidence.

It's also my opinion that GB has one of the best RB duos in football. So rather than talking about using them more, MLF should simply use them more.

He was 48th out of 49 players in runs over 10 yards. How do you define explosive? I have given you my evidence, do you happen to have any to the contrary?

 

[Heyjoe4]

I did run a 4.55 in a H.S indoor track meet (weather related) when I was 16yrs old (I was an 800 guy, I had just talked my coach into trying me in a sprint)
2nd place runner was a 4.53 (which pissed me off) and we had a 19 year old kid from Holmen run a 4.39! He looked like an NFL athlete and our track Coach was complaining to the official about him being College age.

I weighed about 150lb soaking wet and Dillon weighs +97 pounds more and ran a 4.51. That’s really crazy.

Wow, 4.55 is not chopped liver! I was a marathon guy. My best was 2:51 and change - those days are long past.......

 

[Schultz]

I’m explosive. I don’t know if that’s pertinent here?

Some days I am more explosive than other days. It usually depends on what I ate.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Yeah as long as Jones/Dillon are getting somewhere around 35ish touches/pass attempts per game, this team will win a lot more than it loses.

Until the playoffs and they have to pass to keep with a team like the Bucs or Eagles. Developing a good passing attack is absolutely necessary for the postseason and that won't happen without the team finding out what it can do well in the passing game and developing young guys.