The offense must run through Jones and Dillon

[gopkrs]

Sure. And they should throw to them.

However, in reviewing the game it's apparent to me that the problem was not that they wouldn't use the backs. The problem is that they had looks to throw against to the WR's and they didn't execute.

And teams know that we like to throw short and in the flat to RBs and WOs and are mostly ready for it. Those plays should be used sparingly imho. I get it when the corner is playing way off. That is best when there is just one receiver on that side.

 

[Dantés]

And teams know that we like to throw short and in the flat to RBs and WOs and are mostly ready for it. Those plays should be used sparingly imho. I get it when the corner is playing way off. That is best when there is just one receiver on that side.

It's hard when both your field stretchers are injured. They need Watson and/or Watkins back soon. Or they need to make a trade.

 

[McKnowledge]

Coaches put guys on the field because of their draft number.

I push back on that a little. Doubs is superior to Watson at this point even without the injury to Watson.

However, coaches will definitely put players on the field based on salary.

I don't think a strong head coach would allow ARod to treat him the way ARod treats MLF on the sidelines.

I haven't seen anything egregious, just fiery interactions within the game.

MLF is highly aware. He understands team and organizational dynamics...

There is no owner. There is no one who would take his side against Rodgers.

Rodgers is a legend, currently the reigning MVP, and makes the most money in the organization.

MLF is enitirely dependent on appeasing Rodgers even to the detriment of the team.

And I'm starting (I'm probably real slow) to think that ARod is a primadona.

I can see the perception he is a primadonna.

I see his situation quite differently, he's like Achilles in the movie Troy.

Exsitentially (stay with me) he is a mercenary, a loner, armed with divine skills for his craft.

He is always ready for battle, but has interests outside of what he is great at.

Regardless of those in battle with him, he will perform and fight.

He would rather go to battle with competent pieces around him that share his vision.

Knowing his comrades don't measure up to his standards and skills, he is not emotionally invested in the outcomes of battles (games), as we all feel he should be.

He isn't a primadonna, he is the "monster" created by constant enabling in Green Bay.

He earns his living from the Green Bay Packers....

So his loyalty is to his employer, until it isn't.

 

[tynimiller]

We targeted those 2 RB’s 3 times combined out of 39 targets. No matter how you swing it or where you set your debate. AJ Dillon is your 4th best WR on this roster. Do you know how many passing targets he saw in London?

I’m going to disagree with you in this one. It’s a problem. If we continue to ignore our RB’s early on this season we’re in trouble. It’s a glaring level of misusage. No one said drop the rest of the game plan. I sure never said that. I said mix in more RB both pass and Run

Um...no. Nope. Not the truth.

 

[OldSchool101]

Um...no. Nope. Not the truth.

From an efficiency standpoint it is an absolute fact. That’s exactly what I wanted to do is shock you a little, he’s surprisingly formidable.

Does that mean we should line him up Wide? Absolutely not that would be ridiculous.

Does this mean we should never throw a pass his way in an entire game? That’s just as ridiculous.

 

[mradtke66]

It's hard when both your field stretchers are injured. They need Watson and/or Watkins back soon. Or they need to make a trade.

This is where I am. NFL defenses are good enough to take away just about anything the other team wants to do. The trade off is what are they allowing by selling out against the inside run, the outside run, the slant, the deep throw, etc.

The Giants appeared to scheme to stop the run a majority of the time. They dared the Packers to pass. And so we did, it was the better option. The phrase "take what the defense gives you" does not mean **** and dunk, it means to attack the weaknesses created by difficult choices.

The passing game right now isn't play well enough to scare defenses to keep both safeties deep, double cover someone, etc. Right now, we look very similar to 2015 when Jordy tore his ACL. Defenses can play 8 men in the box to deny the run and clog up short passing lanes. Until we send Watson on a go AND complete for 20+yards (for example), defenses will sit and make life difficult.

 

[tynimiller]

yOU

From an efficiency standpoint it is an absolute fact. That’s exactly what I wanted to do is shock you a little, he’s surprisingly formidable.

Does that mean we should line him up Wide? Absolutely not that would be ridiculous.

Does this mean we should never throw a pass his way in an entire game? That’s just as ridiculous.

You won't shock me in discussion of how adaquate or efficient AJ is as a receiving RB out of the backfield. I was one that rung that bell from his combine on. However, the statement was AJ Dillon is your 4th best WR on this roster - that is false.

 

[OldSchool101]

yOU

You won't shock me in discussion of how adaquate or efficient AJ is as a receiving RB out of the backfield. I was one that rung that bell from his combine on. However, the statement was AJ Dillon is your 4th best WR on this roster - that is false.

Ok show us the current Receivers who are better at receiving Efficiency that I have not already mentioned (than AJ Dillon)

I obviously didn’t use Sammy because he’s on IR and We’re talking about available options. We’re not talking usage that’s not fair because a WR will get more opportunities in general, plus my argument is AJ is lacking in usage.
Which available receiver deserves more looks than AJ’s zero usage last contest? The topic is Offense going through RB’s

 

[GBkrzygrl]

I don't really like it much when they are in there at the same time. Maybe once or twice a game is enough for me. But I would like them to start throwing to the TEs over the middle part of the field. At least a couple times a game. I think we have players and just don't utilize them. Trust or something like that I guess is the reason.

I was disappointed that they didn't use the TEs more. Also thought that they wasted quite a few plays trying throwing bombs. Why don't you do what has been working instead of trying to make something work that isn't?

 

[GBkrzygrl]

So right. Spofford commented during the blog that Barry had our D just playing back trying to keep everything in front like the Giants were this team with a great aerial attack. Whereas the Giants mixed their schemes on defense constantly we did not. We assumed because of his bad ankle that Daniel would not be a threat to run and we failed to adjust.

This is the same defense we have seen for years. What happened to being more aggresive?

 

[OldSchool101]

This is the same defense we have seen for years. What happened to being more aggresive?

I agree. Not to get off topic but Barry has one of the most talented groups of players and he can’t seem to apply them effectively. We’ve spent a #28 overall draft selection that’s played like 28 snaps out of a possible 219 snaps over 4 contests. What the heck is going on with that?! (12.8%) and isn’t on IR??
Is he like a secret weapon and well unleash him in 2024? Has he been injured? Did he break down Joe Barry’s bathroom door while he was on the pot? I’m sorry I couldn’t resist!

We have grossly underused 2 very good RB’s early into a season where we knew all along we’d have growing pains in other areas. I seriously would’ve expected 150% of the snaps they’ve seen thus far.

 

[tynimiller]

Ok show us the current Receivers who are better at receiving Efficiency that I have not already mentioned (than AJ Dillon)

I obviously didn’t use Sammy because he’s on IR and We’re talking about available options. We’re not talking usage that’s not fair because a WR will get more opportunities in general, plus my argument is AJ is lacking in usage.
Which available receiver deserves more looks than AJ’s zero usage last contest? The topic is Offense going through RB’s

Dude stop, You didn't stay you were merely ranking by receiving efficiency. That is grossly different than saying fourth best WR.

Otherwise we are in utter agreeance. I'd love them honestly to do designed passes to Dillon more as many hone in on him solely in the run game, PA through him works IMO especially well.

 

[OldSchool101]

Dude stop, You didn't stay you were merely ranking by receiving efficiency. That is grossly different than saying fourth best WR.

Otherwise we are in utter agreeance. I'd love them honestly to do designed passes to Dillon more as many hone in on him solely in the run game, PA through him works IMO especially well.

Brother, I see where you are going, but Remember though we were talking topic of lack of RB usage. So in context not literally!!
I obviously wouldn’t lineup Dillon over Doubs. Simply pointing out his efficiency per target is better and he got ZERO targets. Had Doubs had zero? Wed be livid right??

I would simply give our RB group
3-5 more passing targets Per game (leaning Dillon) and maybe a few more runs (leaning Jones) to both RB’s. Nothing crazy like 3-5 more passes and 4-5 more runs.

The RB group are currently involved in 49% of the O in entirety (runs and passing) That number should be 55%-65% until about mid season or until we have a more effective passing attack in the 40% usage. Remember now, I’m not talking Rushing attempts, I’m including those ~10-12 pass targets going their way per game. As I showed, Dillon is not hurting us, he’s right in their with a WR or TE which is amazing for a RB. His hands are like sticky glue and he’s a freight train with 3 yards head of steam.

 

[mradtke66]

We’ve spent a #28 overall draft selection that’s played like 28 snaps out of a possible 219 snaps over 4 contests. What the heck is going on with that?! (12.8%) and isn’t on IR??

Joking aside, and I love the snark, he's reportedly raw in the run game. Against the Bucs he had like 6 snaps, but I think most/all of them were against the pass. He sure looked the part there!

If it gives you solace, assume they're tracking him like Gary and the snaps will ramp up over time. That's been my suspicion.

 

[OldSchool101]

Joking aside, and I love the snark, he's reportedly raw in the run game. Against the Bucs he had like 6 snaps, but I think most/all of them were against the pass. He sure looked the part there!

If it gives you solace, assume they're tracking him like Gary and the snaps will ramp up over time. That's been my suspicion.

I hope you are right. I give them a pass if he’s injured. However he had no known injury until last week (that I am aware of?). They just suited him up and sat him down. It was like me doing stand up comedy, I was told to sit down!

What interesting is he was considered one of the best Run Defenders in all of College football as far as DL. His scouting report says his pass rush needed refinement. He often gets past his guy but doesn’t finish. Those scouting reports were very Gary-ish (not saying he’s necessarily Gary) as they have completely different roles.

Wyatt will need experienced but imo he would not be some big drop off in production in the Run Game. Watch his hands he’s like a judo expert shedding a block.

 

[mradtke66]

Wyatt will need experienced but imo he would not be some big drop off in production in the Run Game. How much worse can we be with him than we’ve been without him!

I'm pretty positive it could be worse. That makes me an optimist, right?

At first glance, I don't think our line has been the issue with our run defense. I'm more concerned with Campbell missing tackles he made last year and Walker being a rookie.

 

[OldSchool101]

I'm pretty positive it could be worse. That makes me an optimist, right?

At first glance, I don't think our line has been the issue with our run defense. I'm more concerned with Campbell missing tackles he made last year and Walker being a rookie.

Touché. I just think there’s a trade off. Get him involved and I doubt his 15-20 snaps get us in big trouble.
He just might show up by blowing up an occasional play. Having a guy play 6 snaps is almost futile.

I hope you are right. Maybe that’s the plan all along? Ramp him. We will know in the next few weeks

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Walker is MVS this season; that was always going to be the case because the route tree he learned and ran in college is nothing like a true NFL route tree. Watson has a lot to learn, that was always true and anyone who thought he was anything close to a complete receiver didn’t understand him much.

As for the offense running through Jones, in order to win games immediately i agree. I hope the packers are trying to balance that with getting the offense ready for the playoffs. Any offense that runs through Jones is not going to win against the eagles or Bucs in the playoffs; the team will need a functional passing game to win in the playoffs. Running through Jones all season and then suddenly trying to add the passing game during the playoffs is a guaranteed way to have a dysfunctional offense. Short term pain for the longer term good.

 

[McKnowledge]

No doubt that Jones and Dillon should be central to the offense. But you can't just run the ball against loaded boxes all season and expect to be an effective offense.

Actually you can.

I would say with our current personnell and looking at what they do well, this team must shift to a run first, run second, and pass third offense.

MLF needs to stip playing and make Dillon a focal point of the offense.

Jones can do it all and...should be all over the place!!!

Utilize the WRs with quick passes and showcase the strength of the WR corp...YAC!!!

Use Tonyan as the big easy target, he is more than capable.

Stop playing scared and attack these defenses.

GB's defense is opportunistic and will play better when GB is ahead.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

No one said you have to only run with Dillon and Jones. They can both be used in the passing game also.

1. Allen Lazard
67.9% career catch [email protected] yards per reception
That’s 9.0 per target

2. Robert Tonyan
78.3% catch rate @ 10.9 per
That’s a 8.5 yards per target

3. Randall Cobb
69.9% catch rate @ 12.2 yards per
That’s 8.5 per target

4. AJ Dillon
84.9% career catch rate @ 9.0 yards per reception
That’s 7.6 yards PER TARGET

Romeo Doubs
75.9% career catch @ 9.7 per
That’s a 7.3 per target rate.

Aaron Jones
73.5% career catch rate. @7.0 yards per reception
That’s 5.8 PER TARGET

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to use career numbers when comparing yards per target. Dillon only averages 4.9 yards this season which ranks ninth on the team this season.

Ok show us the current Receivers who are better at receiving Efficiency that I have not already mentioned (than AJ Dillon)

Opponents are clearly trying to take away passes to running backs as an efficient way to run the offense. It doesn't make any sense targeting them just for the sake of it even if it doesn't work.

With that being said, I want the Packers to find a way to get both Jones and Dillon more involved as they're the best skill players on that side of the ball aside of Rodgers.

We’ve spent a #28 overall draft selection that’s played like 28 snaps out of a possible 219 snaps over 4 contests. What the heck is going on with that?! (12.8%) and isn’t on IR??

Once again, there's no point of playing Wyatt more often just because he was a first rounder if he doesn't present an upgrade.

Actually you can.

I would say with our current personnell and looking at what they do well, this team must shift to a run first, run second, and pass third offense.

MLF needs to stip playing and make Dillon a focal point of the offense.

Jones can do it all and...should be all over the place!!!

Utilize the WRs with quick passes and showcase the strength of the WR corp...YAC!!!

Use Tonyan as the big easy target, he is more than capable.

Stop playing scared and attack these defenses.

The Packers offense won't be successful by stubbornly running the ball against a loaded box. They need to be able to throw the ball against those looks to get opponents out of those formations to hand the ball over to Jones and Dillon more often.

 

[Magooch]

One of the ways the Packers wanted to create a post-Davante offense was with two-back sets. By putting Aaron Jones and AJ Dillon on the field at the same time, the Packers believed they could force defenses into base sets, run RPOs with the backs motioning out of the backfield, and find a downfield passing game off of play-action. Rodgers predicted in the offseason that both Dillon and Jones could become 50-catch running backs.

This has not even remotely happened. The Packers have averaged 4.09 yards per play and a 37.8 percent offensive success rate in two-back sets; with one or fewer backs on the field, they’re at 5.92 yards per play and 46.0 percent success rate. Perhaps most notably, their explosive play rate sits at 4.4 percent in two-back sets; with one or fewer backs, they’re triple that number at 13.2 percent. After using two-back personnel on at least 10 snaps through the last three weeks, the Packers only used it on three snaps in their game against the Giants. And in Dillon and Jones’s 50-plus target race, Dillon has fallen off. His participation in the offense has decreased overall, and his participation in the passing offense has bottomed out.

Dillon was an interesting pick in 2020, when the Packers drafted him near the end of the second round. You remember: When Rodgers publicly asked for a receiver, and instead got a first-round quarterback, a second-round running back, and a third-round FB/TE? That quarterback (Jordan Love) obviously hasn’t brought Rodgers and the offense any value; Josiah Deguara, the FB/TE, has 30 career catches. Dillon was always going to have difficulty providing value while backing up Aaron Jones, but the offensive staff carved out a substantial role for him this year, and he’s failed to deliver in it.

That leaves the Packers offense in a tricky spot. With two-back personnel scrapped, the Packers are now stuck throwing all of their short-game RPOs—many of which develop behind the line of scrimmage—to players who are not as dangerous with the ball in their hands. When a swing route four yards behind the line of scrimmage went to Dillon, or a quick screen went to Adams, it felt dangerous because the ballcarrier was dangerous. Now? The ball is going to Robert Tonyan, Romeo Doubs, Christian Watson, and Lazard. The only players generating positive EPA on targets behind the line of scrimmage for the Packers are Jones and Tonyan.

Yet Rodgers throws behind the line of scrimmage more than almost any other quarterback (and has been since head coach Matt LaFleur came to town). It worked when the field was wider and longer—when defenses were worried about the deep outside throws to Adams or MVS. That concern isn’t there without those players, and as a result, the field is shrinking.

Interesting tidbit on this topic from a recent article from The Ringer. The whole thing is worth a read IMO but this part specifically touches on some of this discussion.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Actually you can.

I would say with our current personnell and looking at what they do well, this team must shift to a run first, run second, and pass third offense.

MLF needs to stip playing and make Dillon a focal point of the offense.

Jones can do it all and...should be all over the place!!!

Utilize the WRs with quick passes and showcase the strength of the WR corp...YAC!!!

Use Tonyan as the big easy target, he is more than capable.

Stop playing scared and attack these defenses.

GB's defense is opportunistic and will play better when GB is ahead.

You just said all that like your offensive concept makes it a reality. Dillon is not a great running back to focus an offense through (he's one of the least explosive RBs in the league), the receivers can't get open on their own or beat one-on-one coverage yet (hopefully that improves as the season progresses), Tonyan might be a big, easy target but he's also easily covered by the defense. "Stop playing scared" is a really cool poster but worthless when actually coaching an offense with MASSIVE weaknesses in the passing game that need to be shored up by the end of the year. What does "playing scared" even mean on offense"? I do agree that Jones is amazing but I'm not sure the team should ask him to have 20+ touches every game.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I want 30 plus total touches between these two every game - ground and air - I don’t care

That's a perfect number to aim for. Sunday it was 19 (run attempts) to 39 pass attempts. Why not run more, especially with the lead and two very good RBs. I'm mystified.
.

 

[OldSchool101]

Once again, there's no point of playing Wyatt more often just because he was a first rounder if he doesn't present an upgrade.

Other points you made made some sense but not this one at all.

So you bench a Rookie that has tremendous upside and a player that needs experience and seasoning because he’s similar to an older veteran?
Essentially Draft and develop is now draft and dismiss? I don’t think so

I like the other poster krabs? That said he might be getting ready to ramp up. That’s plausible.
Playing a Day 2 drafted DL less each game just does not Sound right to me. Especially one that excels in the run Defense and we have struggled some in that regard.

 

[tynimiller]

I don't think of it in a specific number...but I would like to see us around or above 40% of our offensive snaps go through Dillon or Jones.