The Byrd catch

RepStar15

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Ok so everyone was looking into him being in bounds...but what about the ball hitting the ground after it went over his head? Maybe I need to be clarified on the rule but the ball hit the ground which I would think means you did not maintain possession throughout the entirety of the catch. Any clarification on this?
 
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His left buttcheek kissed the ground before his right buttcheek. That’s grounds for overturning an umpire who is 10 feet away with a perfect real time view :rolleyes:
 

LambeauLombardi

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Ok so everyone was looking into him being in bounds...but what about the ball hitting the ground after it went over his head? Maybe I need to be clarified on the rule but the ball hit the ground which I would think means you did not maintain possession throughout the entirety of the catch. Any clarification on this?

NFL is crap. Unless Atlanta loses tomorrow I'm done watching for this year and have been fed up with this sport for a long time. Honestly if my family didn't care so much about this franchise, I probably would have quit watching this sport this year. How is Jesse James' play not ruled a catch and this ruled a catch when both plays clearly touched the ground. I have to hear 'complete the process horsesh*t' all the time but it clearly looked like this player didn't. If it took Buck and Aikman (or any person) 2 minutes to not even consider it being a catch, I don't think there is a need for a review. Reviewing every scoring play ruins the flow of the game and gets all the fans pissed about the catch rule.
 
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I have reached out to multiple outlets for clarification on this and no one can answer it. I will just say the NFL is rigged for the Patriots to win or the Packers to lose, until clarification on this is discovered.
 
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Mondio

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the ball clearly moved with the Steelers player, i don't remember it moving with Byrd when it hit the ground and I don't think it help him catch it. Though I don't think the ground helped in the steelers case either. I thought his right hand was slid mostly under the ball anyway at that point. The ground isn't supposed to be able to help you secure it, i don't think it did in either case. I wish they'd just go with the calls on the field. i don't think replay makes it better.

But anyway, Where the hell was Clinton Dix on that TD? Seriously, what are you doing out there Ha Ha? you're just standing there watching the play. No INT, no swat at the ball, no hit on the player, nothing. He just ****ing stood there, in perfect position to make a play and does absolutely nothing.
 

yooperpackfan

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But anyway, Where the hell was Clinton Dix on that TD? Seriously, what are you doing out there Ha Ha? you're just standing there watching the play. No INT, no swat at the ball, no hit on the player, nothing. He just ******* stood there, in perfect position to make a play and does absolutely nothing.
Dix would make an excellent cheerleader, he's always standing around clapping.
 

swhitset

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the ball clearly moved with the Steelers player, i don't remember it moving with Byrd when it hit the ground and I don't think it help him catch it. Though I don't think the ground helped in the steelers case either. I thought his right hand was slid mostly under the ball anyway at that point. The ground isn't supposed to be able to help you secure it, i don't think it did in either case. I wish they'd just go with the calls on the field. i don't think replay makes it better.

But anyway, Where the hell was Clinton Dix on that TD? Seriously, what are you doing out there Ha Ha? you're just standing there watching the play. No INT, no swat at the ball, no hit on the player, nothing. He just ******* stood there, in perfect position to make a play and does absolutely nothing.
That is his M.O. Remember the 2pt conversion in the 2014 NFC championship game?
 
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HardRightEdge

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Ok so everyone was looking into him being in bounds...but what about the ball hitting the ground after it went over his head? Maybe I need to be clarified on the rule but the ball hit the ground which I would think means you did not maintain possession throughout the entirety of the catch. Any clarification on this?
1) The ball touching the ground does not invalidate a catch. If the receiver maintains control and the ground does not assist in the catch, it's good. Byrd had control, flipped it back over his head, and then there was a little wiggle when it touched the ground. It's a close call. What I don't agree with is the overruling. I don't see where it is sufficiently clear the on-field call was wrong. Very borderline. The interpretation may have been that the wiggle did not matter because he had already gone to the ground with possession and the "follow through" wiggle was after the fact. That would be a debatable proposition and not obvious enough to support an overruling. Maybe the league figured they owned Cam for letting him get the holy hell beat out of him in last season's early games without throwing flags.

2) The Jesse James call was easy within the wording of the rules and officiating practice. No catch. It fits right in with the "landmark" Megatron and Bryant no catch calls and many such calls since.

3) The Allison fumble could have gone either way. I've seen similar plays called incomplete for lack of a definitive "football move". It's a bang bang call and too close to overrule.

I don't really have much problem with any of the three final outcomes within the context of the rules and officiating practice.

I do have a big problem with the rules themselves.

Until the Megatron call, general practice was 2 feet down (or an elbow, knee or butt) with control was a catch.

The "football move" concept (though they eliminated that phrase from the rules while retaining the concept) doesn't even make any sense on sideline, backline or end zone catches. There's no football move to be made. In the MIN game earlier this year Thielen caught a short out at the sidelines, tapped down two feet and then immediately had it swatted out of his hands before he finished one step out of bounds. Had that been in the field of play it would have been ruled "no catch" for lack of that football move. But the rules don't make that distinction, even if the receiver can't make a football move once out of the field of play. The whole thing is half-conceived.

My old school interpretation of what constitutes a catch would be easy to deal with in replay where they can break it down to 100ths. of a second. All you have to do is see the ball in the guys hands without any ball movement, and then confirm no movement as soon as he moves his hands. Done. Under this interpretation, all 3 are catches with Allison fumbling.

The problem the NFL has is the human eye/brain cannot process fast enough in real time to make those calls and the NFL wants the calls made on the field. So they jiggered the rules to conform to the human limitation of processing in about 1/20 th. of a second frames. Great. And then everybody looks at the James catch and says, "I know the rules, and the rules say "no catch", but that sure looks like he caught the ball."

What they should do is implement the rule as I described it, the way it was handled for decades, but give the coaches an extra challenge specifically for a catch-no catch situation. Since most challenges are used on these types of plays along with fumble-no fumble few would ever get by without due attention.

The NFL would absolutely not take up this suggestion for consideration because it would be an admission they have been looking at this thing incorrectly for years now.
 
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TouchdownPackers

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the ball clearly moved with the Steelers player, I don't remember it moving with Byrd when it hit the ground and I don't think it help him catch it. Though I don't think the ground helped in the steelers case either. I thought his right hand was slid mostly under the ball anyway at that point. The ground isn't supposed to be able to help you secure it, I don't think it did in either case. I wish they'd just go with the calls on the field. I don't think replay makes it better.

But anyway, Where the hell was Clinton Dix on that TD? Seriously, what are you doing out there Ha Ha? you're just standing there watching the play. No INT, no swat at the ball, no hit on the player, nothing. He just stood there, in perfect position to make a play and does absolutely nothing.

The Jesse James play is a perfect example of why you should not rely on still shots. Everyone will tell you it was a TD who does not watch the video that shows him clearly moving the bal in his hands after it hits the ground. That is not the same situation as a runner controlling the football as it hits the ground, then maintaining control of it (the Bert Emmanuel Rule) because James lost control of it (the Calvin Johnson Rule).
 
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HardRightEdge

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The Jesse James play is a perfect example of why you should not rely on still shots. Everyone will tell you it was a TD who does not watch the video that shows him clearly moving the bal in his hands after it hits the ground. That is not the same situation as a runner controlling the football as it hits he ground, then maintaining control of it (the Bert Emmanuel Rule) because James lost control of it (the Calvin Johnson Rule).
Right. The rule dictates controlling the ball to the ground. It says nothing about the ball "touching" the ground. While the ground cannot cause a fumble (if the guy is being tackled), the ground causing loss of control before the "football move" is executed is an incompletion. James clearly lost control, and as much as I dislike this entire rule structure a dive such as James' is consistently interpreted as not constituting a football move (see the notorious "landmark" Bryant dive play against the Packers.)

Byrd may or may not have lost control with that wiggle at the end. Too close to ***** about one way or the other.

Doubly right: Still pictures are worthless since you cannot see the movement or non-movemnt of the ball to judge control or non-control of the ball.
 
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HardRightEdge

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It always amazes me that people still can't get over the Dez Bryant call, yet there is no specific criticism about why the ruling should have stood.
Within the rules as written and interpreted on the field it could have gone either way. Were those couple of steps a "football move" or was he just falling down?

I think the rules suck, but they are what they are.
 

TouchdownPackers

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Within the rules as written and interpreted on the field it could have gone either way. Were those couple of steps a "football move" or was he just falling down?

I think the rules suck, but they are what they are.

Dean Blandino was asked to explain it twice on Official Review. Both times he talked about going to the ground, not the "football move" stuff.
 

Title Town USA

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I don’t want to hear a ref ever again say they need “indisputable evidence” to overturn a call on the field. They overturned this call without “indisputable evidence” and THAT is indisputable!!!!
 
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This is what annoys me about the James catch. Had he been running the ball it would have been a TD. Period. Once it passed the plane of the goal line. He had control of it to get it through the plane. Had he been running and went down and the ball come lose or even fumbled, it would have been a TD. But because he caught it at the spot he did, it's incomplete.
 

TouchdownPackers

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This is what annoys me about the James catch. Had he been running the ball it would have been a TD. Period. Once it passed the plane of the goal line. He had control of it to get it through the plane. Had he been running and went down and the ball come lose or even fumbled, it would have been a TD. But because he caught it at the spot he did, it's incomplete.

It does not matter how Jesse James crossed the goal line. All people care about is the fact he put the ball on it.
 

lambeaulambo

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Back in my day, we didn't have reviewable scoring plays...we had two cups attached to some string to talk to one another and we liked it! we loved it! Theres those damn kids egging my house again...I'm callin the cops!
 
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HardRightEdge

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Dean Blandino was asked to explain it twice on Official Review. Both times he talked about going to the ground, not the "football move" stuff.
I was about to go to the game replay to hear what Blandino said, but concluded it doesn't matter.

Let's say James caught the ball on the 10 yard line, turned, ran a few steps, was being tackled, broke the plane before his knee was down, then hit the ground and the ball came loose. Would catch/no-catch be in dispute? Of course not. So what's the difference? It's the intervening football move. This idea of a football move is absolutely fundamental to understanding the rule.

Earlier I mentioned that the phrase "football move" was removed from the rules while the idea was retained. So I did go to the trouble to cite the rule for you:

"A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground.

So, they took "football move" out and replaced it with the above bolded concept. "Clearly a runner" is a higher bar than "football move." Why did they make that change? Because if a player turns and stumbles and lunges as in the case of the infamous Bryant no-catch against the Packers, any reasonable person would see that as a football move. The NFL decided they don't want those kinds of plays to be regarded as catches. Same thing with the James catch.

As to an earlier point, while I have the rule right in front or me, note the following:

"If the ball touches the ground after the player secures control of it, it is a catch, provided that the player continues to maintain control."

Touching the ground does not disqualify a catch.
 
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HardRightEdge

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This is what annoys me about the James catch. Had he been running the ball it would have been a TD. Period. Once it passed the plane of the goal line. He had control of it to get it through the plane. Had he been running and went down and the ball come lose or even fumbled, it would have been a TD. But because heIt's caught it at the spot he did, it's incomplete.
That is exactly right. And it is not just running the ball, it's "clearly establishing himself as a runner".

There's a difference between *****ing about a call and *****ing about a rule. This rule is certainly worth *****ing about. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it should be called a duck. Rather than respect the athleticism, calling catches that everybody sees to be the case, they stylized the rule to make it easier to call on the field, and then failed at that.
 

TouchdownPackers

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What the NFL wanted to do was clarify the definition of a catch. Unfortunately their efforts backfired as people continue to debate whether Dez Bryant and now Jesse James caught the ball.
 

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