Studs n Duds vs The Vikings

[adambr2]

No reason for him to play against the Bears. We're talking about getting either the 6 or 7 seed. No reason for Love to play either for that matter. The risk of injury isn't worth the potential reward. I want to see Willis put up 45 on Chicago next week.

I would argue that playing the Rams as the 6 is considerably better than the long shot of going to Philly as the 7, but I don’t expect Washington to lose to Dallas, so it’s probably going to be a moot point anyway.

 

[gopkrs]

To avoid shannanigans, I assume that in order to be put on the injured list, one has to be injured in some verifiable manner. Maybe he is 'injured', but not sufficiently/verifiably enough to be put on the IR. There seems to be a side comment here and there about JA not wanting to go out there if he isn't 100% (same as last year). "I don't feel right" is a hard thing to quantify if they don't see anything. Not saying he is milking it, but gotta be something that they can't be putting him on the IR for. Happened last season too. Once is a random event. Two times is a trend...

I know they are holding out hope, but this doesn't seem like something that will magically take care of itself in 2 weeks since its going on what... 10?

In what way would it make us better if Jaire was on IR? Please no generalities.

 

[Magooch]

In what way would it make us better if Jaire was on IR? Please no generalities.

Frees up a roster spot if nothing else. We’ve basically been working with (-1) players available to us for weeks now with him not on IR

 

[Firethorn1001]

In what way would it make us better if Jaire was on IR? Please no generalities.

I'm not arguing about do X or Y to make us better. I'm just spit balling and merely perplexed by a player on the shelf for 6 weeks hanging around and not on the IR under the umbrella of "Oh.. he's so close". Not for 1 year. But 2 now. Now his knee is swollen and we are all just rubbing a rabbits foot thinking better not IL him because he will be back.

I can't remember a Packer being out for 6-7 weeks twice and not being IL'd so I'm just oddly intrigued by it. Packer's secretive ways about injuries add to that.

 

[rmontro]

No reason for him to play against the Bears. We're talking about getting either the 6 or 7 seed. No reason for Love to play either for that matter. The risk of injury isn't worth the potential reward. I want to see Willis put up 45 on Chicago next week.

If we have to start Willis in the playoffs, are we really losing that much?

 

[gopkrs]

Frees up a roster spot if nothing else. We’ve basically been working with (-1) players available to us for weeks now with him not on IR

That's like the definition of a generality.

 

[Magooch]

That's like the definition of a generality.

Ok, I’ll be more specific: with Jaire on IR, we have 53 roster spots to work with. With Jaire not on IR, we effectively have 52.

In what way has not putting him on IR made us better? Please, no generalities…

 

[BrokenArrow]

I guess it depends on how you define mediocre. Is a lower level playoff team mediocre? Right now it looks like we're the fourth best team in the NFC (at best - maybe I'm biased) out of 16 teams. Is that mediocre? I'd say we're probably top ten in the NFL, although that is arguable, I suppose. Is that mediocre? I'd say we're good, not great or mediocre.

We only have one bad loss on (more than 1 possession difference) on the season. Minnesota beat us by TWO both times and both times MLF declined to kick field goals and turned the ball over on downs. The second Lions game we lost because of an obvious OPI that wasn't called in the last few seconds. So, no there is not that much difference between us and the other two in the division, but if that's mediocre to you, okay then. Mediocre literally means average. And average is about 8 wins.

 

[BrokenArrow]

If we have to start Willis in the playoffs, are we really losing that much?

Don't underestimate the value of prior playoff experience.

 

[milani]

Sure, to the same extent that “it’s tough to win a playoff game” is true or “it’s tough to win a game against an NFL team” is true.

Statistically, “it’s tough to win a game against a team that already beat you twice” is more true than “it’s tough to beat a team 3 times in a season” is true, but no one says that.

I guess my point is people constantly repeat the myth like they expect that the outcome is usually different the 3rd time when history shows that isn’t usually the case.

In 1997 the Packers managed to beat the Bucs 3 times. Defensive battles. Trent Dilfer tried hard.
In 2004 the Packers beat the Vikings twice 34-31 with walk off FGs but then laid an embarrassing egg at Lambeau against them in the playoff game.
If we are fortunate to get by Round One I am sure the Packers would love nothing better than to throw everything they have at either the Lions or Vikings.

 

[milani]

I would argue that playing the Rams as the 6 is considerably better than the long shot of going to Philly as the 7, but I don’t expect Washington to lose to Dallas, so it’s probably going to be a moot point anyway.

I think the Boys in Dallas is not out of the question. They beat the Bucs there a few weeks ago. Losing a finale at home with Jerry up high looking down to an historic rival is very embarrassing. And Dallas will have the incentive of trying to win one for MM in what could be his last game as a Cowboy coach. The Commanders have been good but also lucky this year. If not for the Hail Bear play we would have the upper hand right now.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I did notice we had no energy until the late surge to comeback.

I seriously would rather we go hurry up Offense for the first 2 Drives.
Just Go 2-minute drill. What’s there to lose? You’re not winning in that format we saw. Not even a 20% chance. Everyone is now sniffing blood.

I was yawning just looking at Love, he looked like he lost his Puppy for Christmas.

I think it might even be prudent to Start Malik for 1-2 possessions. Just to change things up until we settle in
I’m being dead serious. This next game likely does absolutely zero for us from a playoff perspective. It’ll limit Love exposure and create some confusion because teams won’t know who to expect. I’d keep Love fresh. Plus Malik will smooth punish you if you blitz and don’t immediately get home. He’s like Lamar in his lateral movement and burst.

Same for Jacobs. I’d limit him to 3 Quarters MAX.

Good points. Play hurry up from the start, and limit Jacobs to three quarters. He runs so violently, it's hard to see him lasting more than another two years. Then again, he doesn't get hurt so who knows. In Love's absence, he is the heart and soul of of the offense.

Playing hurry up would force them into the game at full speed. I don't think there is much to lose.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I think the Boys in Dallas is not out of the question. They beat the Bucs there a few weeks ago. Losing a finale at home with Jerry up high looking down to an historic rival is very embarrassing. And Dallas will have the incentive of trying to win one for MM in what could be his last game as a Cowboy coach. The Commanders have been good but also lucky this year. If not for the Hail Bear play we would have the upper hand right now.

Yeah the Cowboys won't roll over. I'd rather play the Rams rather than Philly as well in round one, although it doesn't really matter much. The SB is going through Detroit, MN, or Philly.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I think the Boys in Dallas is not out of the question. They beat the Bucs there a few weeks ago. Losing a finale at home with Jerry up high looking down to an historic rival is very embarrassing. And Dallas will have the incentive of trying to win one for MM in what could be his last game as a Cowboy coach. The Commanders have been good but also lucky this year. If not for the Hail Bear play we would have the upper hand right now.

In 1997 the Packers managed to beat the Bucs 3 times. Defensive battles. Trent Dilfer tried hard.
In 2004 the Packers beat the Vikings twice 34-31 with walk off FGs but then laid an embarrassing egg at Lambeau against them in the playoff game.
If we are fortunate to get by Round One I am sure the Packers would love nothing better than to throw everything they have at either the Lions or Vikings.

Yep and I think most here would agree. Give em the regular season and win in the playoffs. That would be sweet.

 

[PackerDNA]

Don't underestimate the value of prior playoff experience.

Agreed. It's an intangible, but very real.

 

[adambr2]

I always find it interesting that everyone seems to second-guess not taking the 3 points when looking at how the game could have been different,
but not the other way around.

What if we hadn’t taken the 3 points at the Minnesota 3 in the first quarter? What if we had gone for the TD and gotten it?

I’ll take it a step further. What if we had failed? Would we have held Minnesota to a safety or punt back to us, seeing as they would have been buried in their own territory? Rather than the 75 yard touchdown drive they immediately put together after our FG?

Seems like everyone has become so conditioned to #takethepoints! that they aren’t even looking at the other side of it. I’d say there is a coach in Detroit who has made a living off of NOT taking the points and it seems to be working out just fine for him.

 

[milani]

Good points. Play hurry up from the start, and limit Jacobs to three quarters. He runs so violently, it's hard to see him lasting more than another two years. Then again, he doesn't get hurt so who knows. In Love's absence, he is the heart and soul of of the offense.

Playing hurry up would force them into the game at full speed. I don't think there is much to lose.

It sounds positive but with a young offense that can predicate some costly mistakes such as the 3rd and less than a yard not set up penalty. And it might not allow for our D to be on the sideline long enough.

 

[Heyjoe4]

It sounds positive but with a young offense that can predicate some costly mistakes such as the 3rd and less than a yard not set up penalty. And it might not allow for our D to be on the sideline long enough.

Yeah there is a lot of value in wearing out a D early, and an 8-minute scoring drive will do that. And with Jacobs, such a drive is very possible.

MLF has to find a way to spark the offense early. They have had some memorable comebacks this year - especially the two games v the Vikings, but a loss is a loss.

I'm pretty sure players get energized once they start post-season play. That certainly happened to the Packers last year. I'd love to see at least a return to the NFCCG. But the 5 losses this year are significant. If the Packers are going to prove that they can beat solid teams, it will have to be in the playoffs, and it's likely to start in Philly.

 

[Sanguine camper]

Garbage time? MN needed this game a lot more than we did. There is no way they wanted that game to get that close at any time.

The Vikings dominated the game for 52 minutes and were vastly superior. At no time were they in trouble of losing that game. The Packers just fail again and again to make the crucial catch or stop when it's crunch time. It was garbage time because the game wasn't in doubt. When it was needed the Lions or Vikings made the plays and the Packers come up short. It's what MFL teams are known for but it goes back even before him to MM. Just because there's a chance the Packers can make a come back doesn't mean it's plausible. They can make a drubbing look closer but will choke when they have to make the big plays.

 

[Heyjoe4]

The Vikings dominated the game for 52 minutes and were vastly superior. At no time were they in trouble of losing that game. The Packers just fail again and again to make the crucial catch or stop when it's crunch time. It was garbage time because the game wasn't in doubt. When it was needed the Lions or Vikings made the plays and the Packers come up short. It's what MFL teams are known for but it goes back even before him to MM. Just because there's a chance the Packers can make a come back doesn't mean it's plausible. They can make a drubbing look closer but will choke when they have to make the big plays.

I'm not so sure I'd call the Packers chokers. The Lions and Vikings just have better teams, much as I hate to admit it. And you're right, the Vikings were dominant in every phase of the game for 52 minutes. That was good enough for the win. I can't stand the Vikings, but they do have a good team this year, mostly due to a rebirth for Sam Darnold. They also have a very good HC and GM.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I initially agreed. I went back to the previous play and spot. Enagbare has his entire hand lateral to where the ball had been spotted. The MN Center naturally grabs the ball and brings it back about a full foot. It was Enagbare the tip of the ball was butht up to that hash mark and I think they just saw those big hands and called the wrong Jersey #.

You are correct on the long snapper taking the ball back and it appears to be almost 1/2 a yard. I watched it in real time again and the ball is spotted at the 37 after Hochenson's catch and before the long snapper moves it back. Below are snapshots of where he moves it to and where everyone is the moment the ball leaves his hands. Guessing if you change the angle of my shot, almost the entire Packer defense is lined up in the neutral zone, based on original line of scrimmage and not where the LS brought the ball back to.

So that begs an interesting conversation. Is a LS/Center allowed to do that? If yes, does it move the neutral zone back? The Neutral zone defined as the area from the front of the football to the back of it. Could the LS move it back the ball back a full yard, 2 yards? Forcing the defense to lineup at the line of scrimmage not at the spot of where he moves it? Can the snapper move the ball forward before the snap? How far?

Do coaches tell the defense "Do not get baited into lining up off the nose of the ball, remember where the line of scrimmage is and ONLY line up behind that and the neutral zone.

For me, if the snapper moves the ball, he has now moved the neutral zone.

Anyway you cut it, was a ticky-tack call and for me, a very marginal one. I am anxious to see the final stats of penalties called this season. Just a gut feeling from watching more games than I used to, but seems like the refs are dominating the air time.

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[Pokerbrat2000]

So just for Sh1ts and giggles, I watched the whole sequence of that final first half FG by the Queens, 3 kicks in all. First was an offsides on Packers, 2nd was kicked after MLF called a timeout and the 3rd actually counted. On all 3 plays, the long snapper pulls the ball back quite a bit, on all 3 plays, the Packers defense is lined up in what would be the "previous neutral zone", based on the spot of the ball before the LS moved it back. So why didn't they call offsides again on the Packers?

Another thing I noticed in looking at this whole play, several times. Take note of Vikings RG, David Quessenberry. He appears to be lined up even with or almost ahead of Andrew DePaola, the Vikings LS.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Agreed. It's an intangible, but very real.

That said, there's a part of me who wonders how good Willis could be and what Love's trade value might also be.

 

[Heyjoe4]

That said, there's a part of me who wonders how good Willis could be and what Love's trade value might also be.

Yeah I think it's fair to say that after this season, some of us or most of us have given this at least a little thought.

But not too much. Love is the guy and we've seen him at the top of his game, a high ceiling. Maybe it was the early-season injuries, but I haven't seen the Jordan Love who took a 3-6 team to 9-8 and a solid post-season run.

That's why I'm not too concerned about the nature of the five losses this year. The playoffs really are a new season and it's win or go home. I hope that brings out the best in Love because when he plays well, the whole team usually follows. Add in the stud FAs Jacobs and McKinney, and there's no reason this team can't go on a playoff run. Well, that's my story anyway.........

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

That said, there's a part of me who wonders how good Willis could be and what Love's trade value might also be.

I have thought the same thing. However, reality dictates that the Packers went all-in on Jordan Love with his contract.

The Dead Cap that the Packers would face by trading Jordan makes it almost impossible/undesirable to part with him until probably after the 2026 season.

2025 Dead Cap: $87,573,193

2026: Dead Cap: $58,915,462