Should the Packers Consider trading for Isabella

[swhitset]

I have one question. If both Shepherd and Taylor end up playing well and continue making significant positive contributions and improve their game in Lazard’s absence, does that mean they still lack talent?

Framing the question in that way elicits the answer that you want, but does nothing to prove that they are in fact talented.

 

[Dantés]

To throw other ideas out there-- two guys in Carolina interest me more than Isabella.

Curtis Samuel and D.J. Moore.

 

[PikeBadger]

PFF wasn't the only site that ranked the Packer WR group in the bottom 10. Not sure how anyone could have ranked them anywhere but, at the beginning of this season. Without both Funchess and ESB, they had to have dropped.

On opening day, every WR not named Adams was a 5th round (MVS) or an UDFA (all the rest). MVS is also the only 3rd year player.

Projections on MVS and Lazard were mixed. MVS had a rough year last year, I think he has improved. While Lazard showed promise last year, he still had to come out and prove it. I think he has so far. Beyond those 2 players and Adams, what do we have?

I fully get the concept of player development and actually do believe in it. However, when you are expecting to develop drafted players like J'Mon Moore, Jared Abbredaris, Jeff Janis, DeAngelo Yancey, Malachi Dupre, Trevor Davis, Charles Johnson, Kevin Dorsey, Ty Montgomery and have very little success in the last 10 years with those players, its hard to believe posters are putting that much stock into developing UDFA guys like Shepherd, Taylor and Beggelton.

So tell me what your projections are or you think they should be on UDFA players like Taylor and Shepherd?

I haven’t seen enough to know for sure and neither has anyone else here. What was everyone’s thoughts on Lazard after 4 games last year?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I haven’t seen enough to know for sure and neither has anyone else here. What was everyone’s thoughts on Lazard after 4 games last year?

Now you are starting to get it. You originally said that PFF and certain posters are not factoring in or believe in future player development and yet you are making the statement "I haven't seen enough to know for sure and neither has anyone else here." So which one is it? You know or you are just hopeful?

I mean I get it, we all want to think that all these UDFA WR's on the roster and the practice squad will be the next Donald Driver, but history has proven otherwise. We are also looking at 3 drafted WR's from Gutes first draft class in 2018 that are almost half way out the door. Moore a 4th round pick is out of football. MVS a 5th round is starting, but IMO would rank right up there with GMO at this point, due to his inconsistency and ESB a 6th round pick, is nothing but a "hopeful".

What seems to be the difference between opinions is ranking "actual proven talent" VS "hopeful projected talent". This season the only actual proven talent starting the season was Adams, after that, there was a considerable drop off.

 

[Mondio]

and clearly the offense is struggling because of it...

 

[PikeBadger]

Framing the question in that way elicits the answer that you want, but does nothing to prove that they are in fact talented.

FYI, Capt and I have struggled for years on agreeing to the definition of talent.
I kind of see this two ways. If they had no talent they wouldn’t be on an NFL roster in the first place. Two, if players perceived as having lesser abilities can successfully contribute to our offense, then maybe we don’t need WR’s with elite natural ability in order to have a crazy good offense. Maybe it’s far more important to have RB’s and TE’s with elite receiving and open field running ability.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

PFF doesn’t take into consideration future player development. Every WR on the roster not named Adams is in their 2nd or 3rd season.

How would it be possible for any source out there to put up a ranking based on possible future development???

I know some of you do not believe in player development so this is likely to fall on deaf ears. The action or inaction of management leads me to believe what the coaching staff believes to be the value of their players.

I know you don't believe in thr concept of the front office ever being wrong about something.

My point is that while I understand people's frustrations that they didn't take a WR in the draft, it's invalid to criticize the FO for the current group on the field, as no team could have anticipated losing Funchess to COVID, and then having Adams, Lazard, and St. Brown hurt at the same time. You take WR's number 1, 2, 3, and 5 away from any roster in the league, and what's left would be paltry.

I'm not criticizing the front office for not having more talent at the position once the #1, 2, 3 and 5 on the depth chart aren't able to play as that would be close to impossible.

My point beibg that Funchess, Lazard and ESB shouldn't have been that high on the depth chart entering the season in the first place.

and clearly the offense is struggling because of it...

You know very well that they haven't faced an even average defense up until now though.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I kind of see this two ways. If they had no talent they wouldn’t be on an NFL roster in the first place.

Of course every player currently on an NFL roster or even a practice squad is extremely talented. That doesn't mean they're good enough to have an impact in the league.

 

[PikeBadger]

Now you are starting to get it. You originally said that PFF and certain posters are not factoring in or believe in future player development and yet you are making the statement "I haven't seen enough to know for sure and neither has anyone else here." So which one is it? You know or you are just hopeful?

I mean I get it, we all want to think that all these UDFA WR's on the roster and the practice squad will be the next Donald Driver, but history has proven otherwise. We are also looking at 3 drafted WR's from Gutes first draft class in 2018 that are almost half way out the door. Moore a 4th round pick is out of football. MVS a 5th round is starting, but IMO would rank right up there with GMO at this point, due to his inconsistency and ESB a 6th round pick, is nothing but a "hopeful".

What seems to be the difference between opinions is ranking "actual proven talent" VS "hopeful projected talent". This season the only actual proven talent starting the season was Adams, after that, there was a marketable drop off.

In a nutshell to your first snarky point, Lazard was pooh-poohed and not taken seriously as any kind of answer to our WR problem last October. We know now that he has a very valuable skill set and performs very well in this offense. It takes time for young players to become better players. Lazard actually has come along more quickly than Adams did at this point. Will the same type of progress be made by Shepherd and Taylor? We have no way of knowing that. We also don’t know where St. Brown stands currently. We’ve seen notable improvement from Scantling and have heard confirmation of this from Rodgers and La Fleur though he has also had a few shaky moments. Those 4 and the 2 on the practice squad are still developing. We’ve all seen the improvement in Lazard and Scantling so we know the coaches are capable of bringing these guys along.

As a side note, it all kind of makes me feel sorry for Funchess. He may have to convert himself into the TE group in order to make this team next year.

 

[PikeBadger]

Of course every player currently on an NFL roster or even a practice squad is extremely talented. That doesn't mean they're good enough to have an impact in the league.

It also doesn’t mean that they can’t make positive contributions to a very successful team effort like Shepherd, Taylor, Summers, Barnes, Redmond ET al. have done. They have all been counted on to carry out assignments and fill roles on this 4-0 team. They certainly have not disappointed.

 

[PikeBadger]

How would it be possible for any source out there to put up a ranking based on possible future development???

It’s not possible. But it is an integral component of this franchise’s philosophy and I do not understand why so many do not enter it into their thought process.

I know you don't believe in thr concept of the front office ever being wrong about something.

Not true at all. I recognize they have access to much more information than we do and as such I seldom make negative snap judgments on their decisions. In my opinion, they’ve earned that. I feel this is one of the best run organizations in the NFL.



I'm not criticizing the front office for not having more talent at the position once the #1, 2, 3 and 5 on the depth chart aren't able to play as that would be close to impossible.

My point beibg that Funchess, Lazard and ESB shouldn't have been that high on the depth chart entering the season in the first place.



You know very well that they haven't faced an even average defense up until now though.

 

[Dantés]

I'm not criticizing the front office for not having more talent at the position once the #1, 2, 3 and 5 on the depth chart aren't able to play as that would be close to impossible.

My point beibg that Funchess, Lazard and ESB shouldn't have been that high on the depth chart entering the season in the first place.

Yeah, I get that. My only point is that the Packers' receiving corps as put together by Gutekunst was better than what some would give it credit for.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Will the same type of progress be made by Shepherd and Taylor? We have no way of knowing that.

That's true but the odds are stacked against them. Yet you consider it all but guaranteed that they will develop into decent receivers at the pro level.

As a side note, it all kind of makes me feel sorry for Funchess. He may have to convert himself into the TE group in order to make this team next year.

I highly doubt that to be true as long as Funchess is healthy and the Packers don't improve the talent at the position next offseason.

It also doesn’t mean that they can’t make positive contributions to a very successful team effort like Shepherd, Taylor, Summers, Barnes, Redmond ET al. have done.

The contributions of Shepherd and Taylor have been minimal up to this point.

It’s not possible. But it is an integral component of this franchise’s philosophy and I do not understand why so many do not enter it into their thought process.

Player development is an integral part of every team's philosophy. It's impossible to predict which franchise will have success doing it so entering the season though.

Not true at all. I recognize they have access to much more information than we do and as such I seldom make negative snap judgments on their decisions. In my opinion, they’ve earned that. I feel this is one of the best run organizations in the NFL.

I definitely agree that the front office has significantly more access to information and that the Packers have been one of the best run organizations in the league.

That doesn't mean there haven't been valid reasons to criticize them in the past as well as currently.

As a side note, it would be pretty quiet around here if all of us would just agree with the team's front office because we aren't as knowledgeable as them.

 

[PikeBadger]

That's true but the odds are stacked against them. Yet you consider it all but guaranteed that they will develop into decent receivers at the pro level.

No, but I am confident that they will continue to grow and make positive contributions to the team effort like we saw on Monday. We need that to happen until some of the regulars come back.

I highly doubt that to be true as long as Funchess is healthy and the Packers don't improve the talent at the position next offseason.

I’ll disagree. I think the odds are as you say, stacked against him. A entire year away from the game it would seem to me while the young guys are playing and practicing in the offense and with Rodgers puts him way behind the eight ball imo.


The contributions of Shepherd and Taylor have been minimal up to this point.



Player development is an integral part of every team's philosophy. It's impossible to predict which franchise will have success doing it so entering the season though.



I definitely agree that the front office has significantly more access to information and that the Packers have been one of the best run organizations in the league.

That doesn't mean there haven't been valid reasons to criticize them in the past as well as currently.

Agree. Currently I can’t think of any reason to criticize them. We’re a tough nut to crack. Other teams are noticing it I can assure you.


As a side note, it would be pretty quiet around here if all of us would just agree with the team's front office because we aren't as knowledgeable as them.

Agree. The tone of the critics is what annoys me more than anything.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

No, but I am confident that they will continue to grow and make positive contributions to the team effort like we saw on Monday. We need that to happen until some of the regulars come back.

It's more likely that neither Taylor nor Shepherd will continue to contribute once the wide receivers currently injured return.

I’ll disagree. I think the odds are as you say, stacked against him. A entire year away from the game it would seem to me while the young guys are playing and practicing in the offense and with Rodgers puts him way behind the eight ball imo.

Funchess is an experienced wide receiver who has been productive at the pro level. If he's close to 100% after two years away from the game (which is doubtful after he missed nearly all of the 2019 season because of an injury as well) he should easily be ahead of Taylor and Shepherd on the depth chart.

Currently I can’t think of any reason to criticize them. We’re a tough nut to crack. Other teams are noticing it I can assure you.

I disagree but won't repeat the things the front office should be criticized for at this point.

 

[thequick12]

To throw other ideas out there-- two guys in Carolina interest me more than Isabella.

Curtis Samuel and D.J. Moore.

Dj moore for sure but there's no way they trading dude he's already considered a top 20 wr at least

 

[thequick12]

It also doesn’t mean that they can’t make positive contributions to a very successful team effort like Shepherd, Taylor, Summers, Barnes, Redmond ET al. have done. They have all been counted on to carry out assignments and fill roles on this 4-0 team. They certainly have not disappointed.

Please remove shepherd from your list, did you not see him play? That play at the goaline was inexcusable and against a good team in the playoffs could cost a team the game...

 

[Dantés]

Dj moore for sure but there's no way they trading dude he's already considered a top 20 wr at least

You never know. It’s a new regime and he’s not exactly lighting the world on fire right now.

 

[gopkrs]

You never know. It’s a new regime and he’s not exactly lighting the world on fire right now.

We are 4 and 0 and moving the ball. I would not be doing anything at this moment. Keep some dry powder.

 

[thequick12]

You never know. It’s a new regime and he’s not exactly lighting the world on fire right now.

I think he's doing pretty good with 18 for 288 16 per. That's 72 for 1152...but I hope you're right he's a legit number one in development

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

We are 4 and 0 and moving the ball. I would not be doing anything at this moment. Keep some dry powder.

I really hope that Gute doesn't' get complacent and fully accept that idea that "this is as good as we get" and as a result sits on his hands. He has to be looking at how the Packers arrived at 4-0, who was injured/lost in the process and where they can improve. Based on everything I have heard from him since he was hired, I think he is actively looking at ways to improve this team. Look for some new bodies on the 53 by Monday.

 

[Dantés]

I think he's doing pretty good with 18 for 288 16 per. That's 72 for 1152...but I hope you're right he's a legit number one in development

I was thinking more of the absence of touchdowns, but he obviously changed that today.

It's unlikely that they would move him, but new coaching staffs occasionally make such things possible.

I would tend to think that Curtis Samuel is a much more likely trade candidate.

 

[Favre>Rodgers259]

EQ returned to practice today. I think the Packers need to see him for at least 2-3 games before Gute starts working trades; he's got a month before the deadline.

 

[thequick12]

I was thinking more of the absence of touchdowns, but he obviously changed that today.

It's unlikely that they would move him, but new coaching staffs occasionally make such things possible.

I would tend to think that Curtis Samuel is a much more likely trade candidate.

Yeah for sure I have already heard they are willing to trade samuel but I'm not nearly as excited about the prospects of trading for him. The compensation would be minimal, a late round pick.

If he was to be used to replace shepherd on the roster, that would be a net positive. Because at 5-11 196 with 4.31 speed and a 37 in vertical he's more of the traditional explosive slot wr body type. Something that is currently and has been lacking since early in Randall cobbs career. Shepherd is the only guy they have in that mold now except he's not that fast

 

[thequick12]

EQ returned to practice today. I think the Packers need to see him for at least 2-3 games before Gute starts working trades; he's got a month before the deadline.

I believe EQSB could do very well in the pass catching role Lazard was playing prior to his injury. However I don't think he can do what Lazard did in the run game.

But of the 3, mvs/Lazard/EQ I believe EQ is the most polished wr. He's smooth, can run the whole route tree and can effectively operate out wide or in the slot. He also had some chemistry with Rodgers as a rookie, which I think counts for alot. I expect him to do good things when he gets on the field.

But I'd still want Gutey to explore any and all avenues to making the team better for the playoff run. If he can get Rodgers another weapon moving forward he shouldn't hesitate on account of any of the current wrs on the roster with the exception of Adams