Salary cap thread 2016

[Pokerbrat2000]

And he's the reason why Travathan is talked about as an available FA in the first place. Marshall's a very fine player and a restricted free agent to boot.

Yup, IMO the Broncos won't be able to afford all 3 of their FA linebackers, Travathan, Von Miller and Marshall . Travathan seems like the likely one Elway lets walk.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

You need to take that up with Capers. Tell him to rush 4/drop 7. Otherwise, the reality is a heavy dose of blitz/man without enough safeties to go around.

A heavy dose of blitzing doesn't mean an inside linebacker has to end up covering a RB downfield. Both of them should be able to run with a tight end though.

Barrington was a 4.70 runner, and I would point to the Lynch wheel route in the 2014 NFL Championship game as a telling example of the implications in this defense.

Barrington's lack of speed wasn't the reason the long gain on that play but him misreading it as he should have gone over the top of the Seahawks player to tackle Lynch.

Ryan showed good development as the season progressed and has better speed than anybody we've seen at the position is quite some time. He showed good zone instincts in his college tape; if his instincts often looked dull then consider the steep learning curve playing in Capers' scheme and in reading NFL offenses, and the fact that when Capers is not zone blitzing his zone scheme is soft. I think Ryan's upside is widely underrated...maybe not a future Pro Bowl-caliber player, but a very solid 3-down player. I'd be looking for a box player/downhill striker. Barrington kinda sorta fits the bill, if not quite.

I like your optimism about Ryan but so far I haven't seen enough to be convinced that it's justified. There's no way I would like the Packers to enter next season with either him or Barrington being the 3-down player at the position.

Assuming Barrington returns to full health, I would not be surprised if the week one starters are Ryan / Barrington.

With Thompson not being able to upgrade the position for almost four years I wouldn't be surprised either but extremely disappointed.

However, I think Thompson should be able to find an instinctual downhill player with college ILB experience (not another of those OLB conversions) who falls to the middle rounds on speed concerns. At this point, it looks like a pretty fair draft to find that kind of guy.

Completely disagree as the Packers are in dire need of a fast ILB, not another one with concerns about his speed.

Now, would a Ryan / Travathan combo be an upgrade? Surely. But what are you willing to pay for that? I don't see the cost/reward equation adding up.

I'm not advocating for Thompson to break the bank on Trevathan but would like him to pull the trigfer on a fair deal. Other than him Derrick Johnson is the best ILB available but at 33 years old it's anyone's guess when he'll start to decline.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I'm not advocating for Thompson to break the bank on Trevathan but would like him to pull the trigfer on a fair deal.

I'm on board with that and on the surface, Trevathan looks to be an upgrade over what we have. Unfortunately, I think he will be over valued and TT, probably correctly, won't be in the final conversation. But man its going to sting if TT sits on his hands, Barrington and Ryan struggle and Trevathan is having a Pro Bowl season somewhere other then Green Bay. No doubt in my mind something at ILB has to change, out of all the off season moves, this is the one that has me the most interested.

 

[HardRightEdge]

A heavy dose of blitzing doesn't mean an inside linebacker has to end up covering a RB downfield. Both of them should be able to run with a tight end though.

Like I said, take that up with Capers. Somehow the safeties seem to be otherwise occupied when opponents have the weapon and will to exploit it.

Barrington's lack of speed wasn't the reason the long gain on that play but him misreading it as he should have gone over the top of the Seahawks player to tackle Lynch.

That must have been a different play. The one I'm thinking of had nothing to do with tackling and all about covering. Barrington took a bad line initially and then did not have the recovery speed to make up for it.

I like your optimism about Ryan but so far I haven't seen enough to be convinced that it's justified. There's no way I would like the Packers to enter next season with either him or Barrington being the 3-down player at the position. .

I predict you'll be surprised. He needs to show a little more patience in the run game and get a little better at reading offenses in the pass game. I'm confident he's worth the risk because he showed improvement in both areas between his early season and late season work. He's fast enough for the job. If he didn't look it at times it's because his anticipation in the pass game was not good, certainly compounded by Capers' complexities. I liked the fact he learned while sitting and is not one of those must-play-to-learn guys. Like I said, I saw improvement in that area and he's not hit his upside yet. I'll go ahead and predict that if he stays healthy we'll get something on the order of the 2010 version of Hawk out of him, where he'll hit that mark by the latter half of 2016. That would be good and cheap. The tools and the motor are there.

With Thompson not being able to upgrade the position for almost four years I wouldn't be surprised either but extremely disappointed.

We both had Kendricks at the top of our want list in last year's draft. Looking at how he progressed over the course of the season, that was insightful on our parts, and I believe would have been a better pick than Randall over the long run. That's not to say Randall won't be a good CB. It's also not to say Rollins won't outplay him, which I think is a strong possibility.

But Thompson did draft Ryan instead, and I think you'll find him to be an upgrade.

Completely disagree as the Packers are in dire need of a fast ILB, not another one with concerns about his speed.

Ryan runs in the 4.6s. With improved recognition, which I expect, that's plenty fast for the position, and faster than Travathan after 15 yards.

I'm not advocating for Thompson to break the bank on Trevathan but would like him to pull the trigger on a fair deal.

What's fair for a 25 year old ILB who many consider a Pro Bowl-caliber talent, regardless of whether he is or isn't in fact? Better yet, what's his value to a team that plays an attacking downhill style? This sounds like champagne tastes on a beer budget.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

That must have been a different play. The one I'm thinking of had nothing to do with tackling and all about covering. Barrington took a bad line initially and then did not have the recovery speed to make up for it.

We won't agree on Ryan's potential as of now so it would make sense to revisit the topic after next season.

I think we're talking about the same play on which Barrington should have gone over the top of Willson instead of underneath him to tackle Lynch, allowing the tight end to pick him.

http://footballfilmroom.com/the-pick-wheel-route/

 

[HardRightEdge]

We won't agree on Ryan's potential as of now so it would make sense to revisit the topic after next season.

I think we're talking about the same play on which Barrington should have gone over the top of Willson instead of underneath him to tackle Lynch, allowing the tight end to pick him.

http://footballfilmroom.com/the-pick-wheel-route/

I'd be more than willing to revisit Ryan's progress at mid-season. We'll know if I'm right by then. He's not far away from where he needs to be.

That looks like the play. If it is, tackling had nothing to do with it, with Lynch wheeling up the sidelines and catching the ball downfield. Barrington ended up chasing and lacked the recovery speed to make a play on the ball or the receiver. It's why we like speed at the ILB position (or anywhere for that matter). It's not needed so much when the read and anticipation fit the play; it sure comes in handy when an initial mistake is made.

I don't want to belabor one play. It begins to sound like an isolated incident rather than a repetitive thorn.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Travathan's long speed is on the slow side. Ryan would beat him fairly easily in a footrace. A healthy Barrington would pass him at around 25 yards as hard as some might find that to believe.

Travathan ran 4.84 at his Pro Day. He might look fast going sideline-to-sideline and in short zone coverage using anticipation and short distance burst, but you're not going to want him running downfield with RBs and TEs in man coverage (unless it's players like the 2015 version of Lacy or Richard Rodgers). And when Capers does run zone, you see (or more accurately don't see) the coverage ILB drop off the screen into the intermediate middle where he has to pick up crossers and releasers coming his way with a head of steam.

Why do 40 times get brought up like they're the end-all be-all of stats for players? Speed isn't nearly as important (I mean, given that the guy doesn't run a 5.10) as recognizing routes and knowing where to go. How quickly everyone forgets that CJ Mosley was FAR slower than Shazier in the 40 but Mosley is the better ILB in the NFL because Mosley doesn't just react to everything and THEN run, he recognizes the way the play is going to unfold and gets a jump on where he needs to be. I don't care what 40 time the ILB runs so long as he knows where he should be on any given play.

Also, Tevin Coleman ran a 4.39 40...if we're just looking at times then there isn't an ILB in the NFL that's going to be able to cover him. ILBs are almost always going to be slower than the TE or RB, that's why they're playing ILB.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

IMO the 40 times are just one of many things that should be used to evaluate pre-draft players. But I don't see a lot made of any veterans current 40 times, do they even do them? Is Luke Kuechly still running a 4.58?

Straight line speed, indoors, no pads, fresh legs of a 20-22 year old...use it for what its worth.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

 

[Deleted member 6794]

That looks like the play. If it is, tackling had nothing to do with it, with Lynch wheeling up the sidelines and catching the ball downfield. Barrington ended up chasing and lacked the recovery speed to make a play on the ball or the receiver. It's why we like speed at the ILB position (or anywhere for that matter). It's not needed so much when the read and anticipation fit the play; it sure comes in handy when an initial mistake is made.

I didn't say anything about tackling being an issue on the play. Because Barrington misread the play he didn't have a chance to get anywhere near Lynch.

 

[ivo610]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...aurinaitis-chris-long-jared-cook?sf21214589=1

A couple guys I would be ok with considering

 

[Deleted member 6794]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...aurinaitis-chris-long-jared-cook?sf21214589=1

A couple guys I would be ok with considering

All three of them had terrible seasons last year, no thanks.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...aurinaitis-chris-long-jared-cook?sf21214589=1

A couple guys I would be ok with considering

Christmas comes early for a few teams. All 3 players have some tread left on their tires. Just not sure how Long or Laurinaitis would work in a 3-4. Cook might be worth looking at, like his youth, size and speed and from what I read, was under utilized in St. Louis. But still probably not our solution at TE.

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

I like Laurinaitis. He's durable and reliable.

 

[ivo610]

Christmas comes early for a few teams. All 3 players have some tread left on their tires. Just not sure how Long or Laurinaitis would work in a 3-4. Cook might be worth looking at, like his youth, size and speed and from what I read, was under utilized in St. Louis. But still probably not our solution at TE.

Yeah I'm not sure about long but the son of the legion of doom and cook if cheap could be a filler at their respective positions

 

[HardRightEdge]

Why do 40 times get brought up like they're the end-all be-all of stats for players? Speed isn't nearly as important (I mean, given that the guy doesn't run a 5.10) as recognizing routes and knowing where to go. How quickly everyone forgets that CJ Mosley was FAR slower than Shazier in the 40 but Mosley is the better ILB in the NFL because Mosley doesn't just react to everything and THEN run, he recognizes the way the play is going to unfold and gets a jump on where he needs to be. I don't care what 40 time the ILB runs so long as he knows where he should be on any given play.

If you had read my posts above in their entirety relating to this topic, you'll see I do not regard a 40 time as a be-all-end-all. But it should not be regarded as other than important.

C.J. Moseley ran a 4.63 at his pro day, hardly slow for an ILB, which is about the same time Ryan clocked. I stated that Ryan is "fast enough" to provide what's needed if he sharpens up his recognition. Did you see that? That's hardly a be-all-end-all endorsement of speed.

What I don't want the Packers to do is pay 25-year-old-Pro-Bowler money for a box/slash/attack ILB. For that money he should be able to run in the open field with those TEs and RBs as Capers blitz/man defense requires.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I didn't say anything about tackling being an issue on the play.

Sure you did, in two different posts, #77 and #80.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I like Laurinaitis. He's durable and reliable.

Yeah I'm not sure about long but the son of the legion of doom and cook if cheap could be a filler at their respective positions

FWIW Pro Football Focus ranked Laurinaitis as the 83rd out of 97 linebackers last season with a grade of 39.3. Chris Long (98th out of 110 edge defenders, 48.6) and Cook (53rd out of 67 tight ends, 59.0) weren't any better.

 

[HardRightEdge]

IMO the 40 times are just one of many things that should be used to evaluate pre-draft players. But I don't see a lot made of any veterans current 40 times, do they even do them? Is Luke Kuechly still running a 4.58?

Straight line speed, indoors, no pads, fresh legs of a 20-22 year old...use it for what its worth.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

I don't see any evidence of it, but if Kuechly were being considered for a free agent signing, you can bet the tape would be scoured for signs he'd lost a step. This also happens to be another case of a guy playing next to a guy who's a stud.

As it stands, Carolina's interest is in whether he plays up to his contract in the context of their scheme. When high priced free agents go bust it's assumed they took the money and then slacked off. As often it's a scheme fit issue.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Sure you did, in two different posts, #77 and #80.

It seems like it's not one of my best days around here. I thought it was a short pass to Lynch on the play but it was deep ball. Still, Barrington misreading the play was the reason for Lynch being wide open, not his lack of speed.

 

[HardRightEdge]

It seems like it's not one of my best days around here. I thought it was a short pass to Lynch on the play but it was deep ball. Still, Barrington misreading the play was the reason for Lynch being wide open, not his lack of speed.

I figured that's what you thought with the tackling comments.

My point was he recovered pretty well on that play given that bad false start, but wasn't fast enough to make a play on the ball. Lynch had a step on Barrington when Wilson dropped the ball over his head. If he was a 4.6 guy, he could have been at the ball.

Speed is like paint...it won't cover every sin but it can cover a lot of them.

Again, this is one example with one player to illustrate a point. Seeing Packer ILBs outrun in isolation is hardly a rare event, whether it's downfield or across it.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I figured that's what you thought. The point being, he recovered pretty well on that play given that bad false start, but wasn't fast enough to make a play on the ball. Lynch had a step on him that he couldn't close.

To be fair, it would be close to impossible for nearly every single inside linebacker to close in on a RB having a step on him.

 

[ivo610]

FWIW Pro Football Focus ranked Laurinaitis as the 83rd out of 97 linebackers last season with a grade of 39.3. Chris Long (98th out of 110 edge defenders, 48.6) and Cook (53rd out of 67 tight ends, 59.0) weren't any better.

You dont think Cook would be an upgrade over Perillo? interesting

 

[Deleted member 6794]

You dont think Cook would be an upgrade over Perillo? interesting

Who said anything about Cook not being better than Perillo???

 

[HardRightEdge]

To be fair, it would be close to impossible for nearly every single inside linebacker to close in on a RB having a step on him.

A 4.6 ILB would have been at the ball on that play instead of the 4.7 Barrington, even with false first steps.

An ILB does not have to run tick for tick with a typical 4.5 RB out of the backfield to keep up with him. The RB has to clear the garbage and then change direction releasing upfield, and unless the QB hits him full stride, any adjustment to the ball slows him down. Any one of those factors shaves the speed gap. If a speedy RB splits out, and the ILB has to take him, that's a scheme problem.

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

FWIW Pro Football Focus ranked Laurinaitis as the 83rd out of 97 linebackers last season with a grade of 39.3. Chris Long (98th out of 110 edge defenders, 48.6) and Cook (53rd out of 67 tight ends, 59.0) weren't any better.

Just out of curiosity, where was Nate Palmer ranked?