Ranking 2018 Packer moves

[HardRightEdge]

You can dislike Burks the player but he wasn't a reach. I posted a while back in a different thread so I wont do it again but a lot of rankings had him going in the 3rd or early 4th. He was in many top 100 rankings. So you don't have to like him but calling him a reach isnt accurate

It's unclear who you are responding to.

In any case, have you looked at this:

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

There's nothing here to suggest he can adequatly defend the run in the NFL without a huge jump. That's possible, but a lot of things are merely possible. "Merely possible" constitutes a reach.

Whoever might have put Burks in their top 100 probably looked more at his Combine numbers and less at this tape.

 

[RRyder]

You assume the Packers were sitting on this cap for an extended time, waiting to spring the contract offer at some opportune time, without exploring other options.

I find this highly implausible.

I'm actually not assuming anything of the sort. Not even sure what your getting at by " spring the contract offer at some opportune time".

They locked cap into Fuller for an extended period of time during FA. It's simple as that. If you want to argue they weren't interested in any other players in FA at that point fine. It's a fair and plausible point. Still doesnt change that it was simply a big waste of time to offer him the contract they did in the first place

 

[HardRightEdge]

They locked cap into Fuller for an extended period of time during FA. It's simple as that. If you want to argue they weren't interested in any other players in FA at that point fine. It's a fair and plausible point. Still doesnt change that it was simply a big waste of time to offer him the contract they did in the first place

So what part of the Packers offering on or about March 16 and the Bears matching on March 16 do you object to as a 24 hour lockup of the cap? I made a conjecture about how you got to "locked up for an extended period of time." I tried to help out but failed.

If you're going to be obstinate about it, you are required to explain yourself. How do you get to "extended period". I won't ask again.

 

[RRyder]

So what part of the Packers offering on or about March 16 and the Bears matching on March 16 do you object to as a 24 hour lockup of the cap? I made a conjecture about how you got to "locked up for an extended period of time." I tried to help out but failed.

If you're going to be obstinate about it, you are required to explain yourself. How do you get to "extended period". I won't ask again.

It wasn't locked up for 24 hours. You do know that cap was tied up till the Bears actually matched? Not when they said they would.

That cap space was tied up in Fuller for the better part of a week. What's not to get?

 

[HardRightEdge]

It wasn't locked up for 24 hours. You do know that cap was tied up till the Bears actually matched? Not when they said they would.

That cap space was tied up in Fuller for the better part of a week. What's not to get?

I still don't know how you get to a week, but that's hardly an extended period. At the same time you assume other possibilities were not explored and rejected prior to or up to making the offer. I see know particular lost opportunity the Packers were willing to entertain.

 

[RRyder]

I still don't know how you get to a week, but that's hardly an extended period. At the same time you assume other possibilities were not explored and rejected prior to or up to making the offer. I see know particular lost opportunity the Packers were willing to entertain.

I said the better part of a week. When a team signs a player on a tag or is restricted the other team has 5 days to match (might be 4 now that I think of it). Even though the Bears came out publicly and stated they would match within hours they didn't actually do it till the last possible moment.

As for you other points. Sure they may have. I never said they weren't. There were other players that signed elsewhere that they may or may not have been interested in during that time frame. That's all conjecture at this point. Perhaps Gute exhausted all avenues. I hope he did. Or maybe he zeroed in on Fuller. I dont know and I'm not assuming either way

What I do know is that even in a best case scenario it was a huge waste of time and energy to talk to Fuller and negotiate a contract with him when he was never going to wear Green and Gold with the contract we signed him to and I would hope that our organization could of found something more productive to do with that time and energy

 

[HardRightEdge]

Here's a "what if" while we're on the subject.

Fuller's cap cost in 2019 is $13.5 mil. Jackson's is $1.4 mil.

The Packers current cap committments for 2019 for the top 51 would sit at around $165 mil with Fuller with a different player taken with the Jackson pick, perhaps a Matthews or Cobb replacement of some pedigree.

That $165 mil already exceeds the current top 51 while at the same time excluding all of the following 2019 free agents:

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2019/green-bay-packers/available/

This does not include any impact from a new Rodgers deal.

We may find out soon enough (if 6 months is soon enough) that not landing Fuller was a blessing in disguise. Fuller would have been OK with me without signing Graham, but not both.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I said the better part of a week. When a team signs a player on a tag or is restricted the other team has 5 days to match (might be 4 now that I think of it). Even though the Bears came out publicly and stated they would match within hours they didn't actually do it till the last possible moment.

As for you other points. Sure they may have. I never said they weren't. There were other players that signed elsewhere that they may or may not have been interested in during that time frame. That's all conjecture at this point. Perhaps Gute exhausted all avenues. I hope he did. Or maybe he zeroed in on Fuller. I dont know and I'm not assuming either way

What I do know is that even in a best case scenario it was a huge waste of time and energy to talk to Fuller and negotiate a contract with him when he was never going to wear Green and Gold with the contract we signed him to and I would hope that our organization could of found something more productive to do with that time and energy

We' getting warmer. I don't see it as a huge waste of time negotiating with a player who doesn't pan out. That's part of the job. Between negotiating with who knows how many free agents, internal and external, along with attmepted renotiations, are discussed, one more that fell through is hardly some noteworthy gaffe. That doesn't even count the far more hours that go into pro scouting that don't pan out in an acqusition.

And if as you say the Bears waited until the last moment to match instead of at the first opportunity, they were having second thoughts. The Packers landing Fuller may have been much closer than you presume.

 

[AmishMafia]

Here's a "what if" to contemplate: if Fuller was a Packer, what would the draft have looked like? Quite a bit different after the 1st. round I would think.

Interesting question. I doubt Jaire would be a packer. Maybe sit tight and take Edmunds. Or trade back and take Jackson at 27 and then chark at 2.13?

 

[RRyder]

Here's a "what if" while we're on the subject.

Fuller's cap cost in 2019 is $13.5. Jackson's is $1.4 mil.

The Packers current cap committments for 2019 for the top 51 would sit at around $165 mil with Fuller with a different player taken with the Jackson pick, perhaps a Matthews or Cobb replacement of some pedigree.

That $165 mil already exceeds the current top 51 while at the same time excluding all of the following 2019 free agents:

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2019/green-bay-packers/available/

We'll find out soon enough (if 6 months is soon enough) that not landing Fuller was a blessing in disguise. Fuller would have been OK with me without signing Graham, but not both.

I think the real question is who would they cut had they gotten Fuller. Probably would've been Cobb or Bulaga.

There's a domino effect that comes with it also.

Do they then stay at 14 and pick James since they now have a legit starter in Fuller? If they do then Jackson still is probably the pick in the 2nd.

Do they stay put and pick Edmunds instead? Probably don't trade up for Burks then.

Do they still bring back Tramon?

Do they go Oline or reciever in the 2nd now depending who they cut?

Too many variables imo

 

[AmishMafia]

We' getting warmer. I don't see it as a huge waste of time negotiating with a player who doesn't pan out. That's part of the job. Between negotiating with who knows how many free agents, internal and external, along with attmepted renotiations, are discussed, one more that fell through is hardly some noteworthy gaffe. That doesn't even count the far more hours that go into pro scouting that don't pan out in an acqusition.

And if as you say the Bears waited until the last moment to match instead of at the first opportunity, they were having second thoughts. The Packers landing Fuller may have been much closer than you presume.

It would be a bigger gaffe to not even try. It was a valid attempt at improving the roster and they should not be criticized for trying. Although the cap space was tied up, their ability to negotiate and agree to terms with other prospects was not. The signing to an offer sheet probably had no effect on any other FA acquisition.

I posted earlier some of the strategies involved. I'm sure it was a very calculated offer with whatever the packers intent was. I believe they have their maxed offer hoping Bears dont match. Seems the bears had just spent money on the Jax WR. Maybe hoping that affected their cap? Who knows.

 

[RRyder]

We' getting warmer. I don't see it as a huge waste of time negotiating with a player who doesn't pan out. That's part of the job. Between negotiating with who knows how many free agents, internal and external, along with attmepted renotiations, are discussed, one more that fell through is hardly some noteworthy gaffe. That doesn't even count the far more hours that go into pro scouting that don't pan out in an acqusition.

And if as you say the Bears waited until the last moment to match instead of at the first opportunity, they were having second thoughts. The Packers landing Fuller may have been much closer than you presume.

Actually it's simply par for the course. Pretty much every team that matches an offer waits the maximum amount of time to actually do it as there's no downside to them waiting and you lock up cap of another team.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I think the real question is who would they cut had they gotten Fuller. Probably would've been Cobb or Bulaga.

There's a domino effect that comes with it also.

Do they then stay at 14 and pick James since they now have a legit starter in Fuller? If they do then Jackson still is probably the pick in the 2nd.

Do they still bring back Tramon?

Do they go Oline or reciever in the 2nd now depending who they cut?

Too many variables imo

They'd have had to cut somebody, Cobb, Bulaga or Matthews, probably Bulaga since they seem committed to Cobb and Mathews for this season. Cutting Bulaga may still happen even if they have paid a roster bonus for this year. Even so, Fullers cap hit for the first 2 years is $20 mil and then launches into the stratosphere; Bulaga's cap savings if cut at the time would have saved about $11.5 mil over the next two years, a little less now with the roster bonus presumed earned. That may still happen before the opening day 53 is set since reports have it that he was asked to renegotiate and declined. Still, that cut only covers half the Fuller two year cost.

Regardless of who they drafted, signed or didn't sign instead with the Fuller signing you're filling the same needs minus 1 (Fuller) but plus 1 (whoever you cut) and the same amout of cap to work with.

 

[HardRightEdge]

I believe they have their maxed offer hoping Bears dont match.

Of that I am certain.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Actually it's simply par for the course. Pretty much every team that matches an offer waits the maximum amount of time to actually do it as there's no downside to them waiting and you lock up cap of another team.

My last comment: if you want to consider locking up cap for 4 or 5 days as some kind of gaffe, if that is in fact the case, that's for you. Of all the things that go wrong or could be screwed up in roster building, this goes toward the bottom of the list in my book.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Yeah I agree they prolly want in Alexander what they had in shields, but I don’t think his size would be a problem whatsoever in the slot, all the top slot cbs in the game are around his size Kendal fuller, Chris Harris jr, Patrick robsinson, Bobby McCain, tyrann mathieu, and the list goes on.

Well, as I'm fond of saying, people like more than one reason upon which to base a judgement. In the case of Alexander, it's size + injury history + aggressive style of play. He's still an injury risk on the perimeter but less so.

I can't say I'm familiar with the careers and styles of all the players you mentioned, but one that stands out for small size and agrression is Mathieu. I won't split hairs as to what specific positions he's played. Let's just say "middle of the field". Mathieu missed 5, 10, 2 and 6 games in his first 4 seasons, and who knows how many more playing hurt. It doesn't matter how good the player might be if he misses an average of 6 games per year until he figures out how to stay on the field.

 

[PackerDNA]

While the Fuller offer was in effect, the Packers were down to $580,000 in cap money. As many of you pointed out, that wouldn't preclude them making other moves, and if they had gotten Fuller, would probably changed their draft. In hindsight, I'm happier with the way things ended up rather than getting Fuller.

 

[PackerDNA]

For me, I think the biggest moves so far have been intangibles. Pettine is going to be a huge difference maker. The shuffling of the front office and coaching staffs- in particular bringing back Philbin- may have a rejuvinating effect on MM and the entire team.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

It is difficult to list the addition by subtraction by getting rid of Capers, because it is an off-season move which should have been made half a decade ago. At least they picked a quality replacement.

I'm pretty down on the decision to bring back Philbin. It just seems like damage control to make it appear as if they are doing something about the stale offense, though all they did was bring in one of his students from the same brain trust. People want to reference the outlier, our 2011 season, while ignoring that the offense was more or less the same as it is now during his other years at OC. It's hard to expect much of a change from this.

Getting an additional first rounder and trading back up to get the player they were likely targeting in the first place was great. I liked the Jackson pick. I was okay with the draft, but I'm not sure if we got enough known commodities. The CB group is improved drastically on paper, which is the biggest priority, but we are still putting a lot of faith in rookies, and it is difficult to foresee any of the other picks having a big impact in year 1. I like Burks as a nickel LB and Moore, but rounds 3-7 reminded me of previous GB drafts, where we've yielded next to nothing. Moves like drafting a LS, punter early, multiple players at the same position reeked of TT moves.

Wilkerson was a no-brainer. Graham is two years removed from an excellent campaign, but so is Jordy. I hope that they saw enough to project him to be worth that amount of money, rather than just overpaying to fill a need.

We will see how the season plays out in order to tell if Gute has a vision and a plan. I believe that TT was clearly losing his. The roster is still not very good, but hopefully our weaknesses (Defense) have been alleviated to the point where they do not offset our unbelievable strength (Rodgers).

 

[HardRightEdge]

While the Fuller offer was in effect, the Packers were down to $580,000 in cap money. As many of you pointed out, that wouldn't preclude them making other moves, and if they had gotten Fuller, would probably changed their draft. In hindsight, I'm happier with the way things ended up rather than getting Fuller.

I'm not sure how you get to that figure. Fuller's year 1 cap hit is $6.5 mil. Sportrac shows the top 51 currently at $10.2 mil in cap space with all of the draftees loaded in (OverTheCap has not loaded them all in yet). Williams had not been signed yet ($3.6 mil cap hit).

To get even close to the $580k figure you'd have to assume Nelson was still around. He may have been for a day or two (release announced on 3/13, Bears announce Fuller signing on 3/16), but Nelson's release was a fait accomplis with the Graham signing regardless.

With both Nelson and Fuller holding cap, I believe there were several million left.

Besides, negotiations could have been ongoing as a contingency against not aquiring Fuller, with comminications to agents along the lines of, "hold off for a couple of days; you may like what we have to say."

This whole "tying up cap" is a tempest in a teapot.

The cap issue with Fuller from my perspective would have come in 2019.

 

[PackerDNA]

I'm not sure how you get to that figure. Fuller's year 1 cap hit is $6.5 mil. Sportrac shows the top 51 currently at $10.2 mil in cap space with all of the draftees loaded in (OverTheCap has not loaded them all in yet). Williams had not been signed yet ($3.6 mil cap hit).

To get even close to the $580k figure you'd have to assume Nelson was still around. He may have been for a day or two (release announced on 3/13, Bears announce Fuller signing on 3/16), but Nelson's release was a fait accomplis with the Graham signing regardless.

With both Nelson and Fuller holding cap, I believe there were several million left.

Besides, negotiations could have been ongoing as a contingency against not aquiring Fuller, with comminications to agents along the lines of, "hold off for a couple of days; you may like what we have to say."

This whole "tying up cap" is a tempest in a teapot.

The cap issue with Fuller from my perspective would have come in 2019.

The figure was from the NFLPA at the time.

 

[HardRightEdge]

The figure was from the NFLPA at the time.

Got a link? Posted at the time in another thread perhaps? Out of curiosity I'd like to see what they were including in that number.

EDIT:

I found this right away: immediate prior to the Tramon Williams signing, cap space stood at $20 million: https://247sports.com/nfl/green-bay...uch-Cap-Space-for-Green-Bay-Packers-116772100

If you subtract from that the $6.5 mil tied up in the Fuller offer, and Nelson's $10 mil in cap savings, the cap space would be $3.5 mil.

Again, regardless, having cap tied up in Nelson and Fuller for a couple of days would not have put a slow in anybody's roll.

And frankly, if the Packers could have signed a comparable cost and value FA player of their liking instead of playing a crap shoot on Fuller, they would have done it.

 

[AKCheese]

I love “my last comment:”.... followed by 4 more posts...

 

[HardRightEdge]

I love “my last comment:”.... followed by 4 more posts...

That was for Ryder. PackerDNA introduced a new fact that I consider dubious.

Sometimes I wonder when people don't replay to the post in question it is because they hope the other party doesn't see it. I wouldn't have seen either were it not for those handy dandy email alerts.

And you should be able to count to 3 when there is 3 and not 4.

 

[gbgary]

So what part of the Packers offering on or about March 16 and the Bears matching on March 16 do you object to as a 24 hour lockup of the cap? I made a conjecture about how you got to "locked up for an extended period of time." I tried to help out but failed.

If you're going to be obstinate about it, you are required to explain yourself. How do you get to "extended period". I won't ask again.

the quote you attributed to me isn't me/mine. it has my name on it, the shortcut takes you to my post, but those points aren't in my post. weird, i wonder how that happened.