Pass to RBs more under Lafleur?

[sschind]

The Packers would definitely benefit from getting the running backs more involved in the passing game but Jones hasn't been above average in that area so far.

LaFleur definitely benefitted from having Freeman, Gurley and Lewis on his teams. The Packers haven't had a running back being as talented catching the ball over the past few years.

I'm certainly not going to compare Jones to any of those guys but when you have a game plan and/or a QB who doesn't seem to keen on getting the RBs involved in the passing game it's kind of hard for those RBs to be above average. I'll wait until I see what LaFleur decides to call (and AR decides to run) and how Jones responds before I make any judgments on his talent at catching the ball out of the backfield.

If you are going to judge the future based on what happened in the past even after all that has changed then I guess we are screwed.

 

[gbgary]

Sometimes Rodgers can just see he will not have enough time for a play to develop and needs to do something on his own...that is create more time. Which will mess up some patterns but so will a sack.

most plays rodgers had plenty of time for the play to develope. he chose to hold it longer and look for the big play. the ball usually ended up in the stands.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

3rd most in QB hits, 10th most in QB sacks last year. Obviously, some of that is Rodgers leaving the pocket, but if a line is "one of the best" you'd at least expect that they'd be in the bottom 10 or 5 in both categories. Instead, it's the complete opposite end of the spectrum.

I have no idea where you get that numbers from but according to PFF only seven teams allowed less quarterback hits than the Packers last season.

I'll wait until I see what LaFleur decides to call (and AR decides to run) and how Jones responds before I make any judgments on his talent at catching the ball out of the backfield.

If you are going to judge the future based on what happened in the past even after all that has changed then I guess we are screwed.

In my opinion Jones doesn't look natural catching the ball out of backfield, therefore I don't expect him to excel in that area just because of a different scheme.

 

[gopkrs]

Just an opinion but I think Jones will do just fine catching the ball (if it is a good throw). It really has not been Rodger's forte to throw the screen. People seem to think that all you have to do is throw it in the vicinity. But there is an art to throwing a good screen pass.

 

[sschind]

[QUOTE="captainWIMM, post: 836335, member: 6794"

In my opinion Jones doesn't look natural catching the ball out of backfield, therefore I don't expect him to excel in that area just because of a different scheme.[/QUOTE]

I don't think you have ever said that before Cap. Saying because he hasn't doesn't it before you don't think he will now is why I keep bringing it up. I'm not sure I agree but saying this gives me a reason why you don't think he will do it. Thanks for the clarification. I get why you say it now.

 

[gopkrs]

[QUOTE="captainWIMM, post: 836335, member: 6794"

In my opinion Jones doesn't look natural catching the ball out of backfield, therefore I don't expect him to excel in that area just because of a different scheme.

I don't think you have ever said that before Cap. Saying because he hasn't doesn't it before you don't think he will now is why I keep bringing it up. I'm not sure I agree but saying this gives me a reason why you don't think he will do it. Thanks for the clarification. I get why you say it now.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that is a very clear opinion. I'm doubting the accuracy. We'll see.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

I have no idea where you get that numbers from but according to PFF only seven teams allowed less quarterback hits than the Packers last season.
.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...role=TM&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_QBHIT

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Just an opinion but I think Jones will do just fine catching the ball (if it is a good throw). It really has not been Rodger's forte to throw the screen. People seem to think that all you have to do is throw it in the vicinity. But there is an art to throwing a good screen pass.

I agree that Rodgers has struggled at times throwing a decent screen in the past but Jones hasn't convinced me he will excel catching the ball even if #12 has been accurate on those plays.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...role=TM&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_QBHIT

You have to realize that number includes quarterback hits other players including Rodgers were to blame for. According to PFF the offensive line was responsible for 30 sacks and an additional 19 hits in 2018.

 

[Mondio]

Last year Rodgers didn't have that touch on screen passes, but last year wasn't his norm throwing the ball. I think he'll be fine

 

[GreenNGold_81]

I agree that Rodgers has struggled at times throwing a decent screen in the past but Jones hasn't convinced me he will excel catching the ball even if #12 has been accurate on those plays.



You have to realize that number includes quarterback hits other players including Rodgers were to blame for. According to PFF the offensive line was responsible for 30 sacks and an additional 19 hits in 2018.

What's your point? Aaron Rodgers was hit 102 times last year according to the league's official stats. Regardless of how you spin the stats, that's horrible. Look at Drew Brees, hit almost half as much and still a mobile QB. There are ways to fix this, hopefully, the Pack have figured that out this offseason.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Last year Rodgers didn't have that touch on screen passes, but last year wasn't his norm throwing the ball. I think he'll be fine

Rodgers has struggled with screen passes for most of his career.

What's your point? Aaron Rodgers was hit 102 times last year according to the league's official stats. Regardless of how you spin the stats, that's horrible. Look at Drew Brees, hit almost half as much and still a mobile QB. There are ways to fix this, hopefully, the Pack have figured that out this offseason.

The point being that other players (tight ends, running backs and Rodgers himself) than offensive linemen were to blame for a decent amount of those hits.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Rodgers has struggled with screen passes for most of his career.



The point being that other players (tight ends, running backs and Rodgers himself) than offensive linemen were to blame for a decent amount of those hits.

Then literally everyone needs to be better, and the line shouldn't be referred to as "one of the best" in the league if it can't mask for deficiencies in coverage elsewhere. 102 hits to our MVP is not acceptable regardless of who is responsible.

 

[mradtke66]

the line shouldn't be referred to as "one of the best" in the league if it can't mask for deficiencies in coverage elsewhere.

How do you know it didn't?

 

[GreenNGold_81]

How do you know it didn't?

How do you know it did?

 

[mradtke66]

How do you know it did?

I don't.

You, however, made a positive claim, so support it. That's how this works. You have a position, you state it, it is your responsibility to provide evidence. If you don't, your claim is easily dismissed.

So that is my question: What evidence do you have to support your thesis?

Or you phrased your argument quite poorly and you meant to say something else.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

I don't.

You, however, made a positive claim, so support it. That's how this works. You have a position, you state it, it is your responsibility to provide evidence. If you don't, your claim is easily dismissed.

So that is my question: What evidence do you have to support your thesis?

Or you phrased your argument quite poorly and you meant to say something else.

Fine, I'll bite. Obviously, I don't have evidence. I'm a guy with a keyboard and an opinion. If we assume anyone had half a brain coaching the offensive line last year, then yes, they would have tracked the stats and seen so and so crapping the bed in coverage. They'd likely also try to mask that error. Even so, 102 hits and 53 sacks on Rodgers, one of the highest paid players in the league and our MVP happened, which is not acceptable. Whatever "masking" I assume they did was pitiful. The hogwash that Rodgers is to blame because he busts out of the pocket so frequently is asinine, Brees, Trubisky, Mayfield, Newton - all mobile, all sacked considerably less than Rodgers. There are ways to figure this out, the team was not smart enough to do it last year. It cost Rodgers his knee in week 1.

Thesis concluding statement: "regardless of who is at fault, the offensive line commands the most responsibility in keeping the figurehead of the franchise upright. Seeing that under their watch Rodgers was sacked the THIRD MOST in the league, I conclude that this line is not "one of the best" as someone had previously posted".

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Then literally everyone needs to be better, and the line shouldn't be referred to as "one of the best" in the league if it can't mask for deficiencies in coverage elsewhere. 102 hits to our MVP is not acceptable regardless of who is responsible.

There's no doubt the offense as a whole needs to be better protecting Rodgers. This includes #12 as well.

It doesn't make any sense to blame the offensive line for not being able to cover up for other players making mistakes in pass protection.

 

[mradtke66]

Fine, I'll bite. Obviously, I don't have evidence. I'm a guy with a keyboard and an opinion.

And you are entitled to your opinion. But lacking evidence means your conclusions will be rejected by some (most? all?) posters.

If we assume anyone had half a brain coaching the offensive line last year, then yes, they would have tracked the stats and seen so and so crapping the bed in coverage.

Again, why do you think they didn't?

They'd likely also try to mask that error.

Again, why do you think they didn't?

It cost Rodgers his knee in week 1.

Thesis concluding statement: "regardless of who is at fault, the offensive line commands the most responsibility in keeping the figurehead of the franchise upright. Seeing that under their watch Rodgers was sacked the THIRD MOST in the league, I conclude that this line is not "one of the best" as someone had previously posted".

How can you say the leg injury was the line's fault? At least entirely? I just dug up the play in question. Slowing it down, the ball is snapped at 9:23, in Rodgers hands by 9:22. At 9:20, Rodgers has completed an additional 3 step drop, with ample time to throw. He is hit at 9:19.

Erring on the conservative side, the line successfully blocked for 3 seconds. That is a win from their perspective.

So what DID go wrong on the play? I do not have access to All-22 Footage, so I have some questions, some conjecture:

1. Why did Rodgers not throw the ball at the top of his drop? If the ball comes out on time, he might not get touched at all. At worst, a gentle shove.
a: Was no one open?
b: Did Rodgers hold the ball too long looking for the bigger play?
c: Was it a bad matchup?
d: If those things were true, why didn't Rodgers throw it away?
e: It was 3rd Down. Was Rodgers too afraid to throw it away? Trying to do too much?

2. They were lined up in shotgun. Why did Rodgers drop after taking the snap at all? Had he not, it looks like there was an opening to scramble through the offensive left guard/tackle gap.

3. Some of the knee injury is Rodger's fault on how he flopped. It makes sense, he's trying to protect himself, but maybe he should watch some Payton Manning film. He know how to give up when the sack was coming and take gentler hits.

4. McCray (no. 64, RG) on the play ended up blocking no one and Linsley 63 ended up getting run over. Bhak did his job wonderfully. Ditto Taylor. The Left side held perfectly. Bulaga did adequate. McCray probably should have helped Linsley more, but I don't know if the play or if they slid protection to one side or the other. He may have done he job as instructed on the play--I can't say perfectly, because I get a little squinty at linemen who aren't hitting anyone on a play.

5. Hindsight, but perhaps they should have slid 88 to Right side to help with blocking Mack's side. We could potentially blame both Rodgers and McCarthy there.

On that one play, I would summarize:

•The line did their job
•The ball didn't come out fast enough
•The playcall may not have been optimal
•No TE is at fault--one wasn't on the field (or if one one was, he was aligned at a WR)
•No RB is at fault--he was aligned to the offensive left and immediately ran a route

I'd give the majority of the blame to Rodgers and McCarthy.

And that whole spiel is why several of us are picking on your argument. There are too many parts *other* than the offensive line that are responsible for sacks given up. TEs, RBs, the playcall, shifting protections, and the Quarterback.

If the QB guy slides the protection the wrong way, creating a free rusher, that's the QB's fault. Not the line.

If the RB wiffs on a blitz pickup, again, not the o-line's fault.

If the playcall has 5 men running patterns and the quarterback identifies 6 rushers, it is now his responsibility to
a) Hot route a back or TE to block
b) Be responsible for the 6th man by throwing the pass before the rush makes it to him. He'll probably get popped anyway, but after the ball is gone.

And again, if the QB is dancing in the backfield for 5 seconds, can't decide who to throw to, bails out of the pocket, and gets hit by a safety rolling up to protected the flat, it certainly isn't the line's fault.

 

[mradtke66]

And here we go. Twitter, so I'd like to see the underlying data, but of the 53 sacks given up in 2018, 45 of the happened after 2.5 seconds.

https://twitter.com/BenFennell_NFL/status/1148689603127369734

That stat tells me the line, and even the pass protection in general, is doing its job.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

And you are entitled to your opinion. But lacking evidence means your conclusions will be rejected by some (most? all?) posters.



Again, why do you think they didn't?


Again, why do you think they didn't?





How can you say the leg injury was the line's fault? At least entirely? I just dug up the play in question. Slowing it down, the ball is snapped at 9:23, in Rodgers hands by 9:22. At 9:20, Rodgers has completed an additional 3 step drop, with ample time to throw. He is hit at 9:19.

Erring on the conservative side, the line successfully blocked for 3 seconds. That is a win from their perspective.

So what DID go wrong on the play? I do not have access to All-22 Footage, so I have some questions, some conjecture:

1. Why did Rodgers not throw the ball at the top of his drop? If the ball comes out on time, he might not get touched at all. At worst, a gentle shove.
a: Was no one open?
b: Did Rodgers hold the ball too long looking for the bigger play?
c: Was it a bad matchup?
d: If those things were true, why didn't Rodgers throw it away?
e: It was 3rd Down. Was Rodgers too afraid to throw it away? Trying to do too much?

2. They were lined up in shotgun. Why did Rodgers drop after taking the snap at all? Had he not, it looks like there was an opening to scramble through the offensive left guard/tackle gap.

3. Some of the knee injury is Rodger's fault on how he flopped. It makes sense, he's trying to protect himself, but maybe he should watch some Payton Manning film. He know how to give up when the sack was coming and take gentler hits.

4. McCray (no. 64, RG) on the play ended up blocking no one and Linsley 63 ended up getting run over. Bhak did his job wonderfully. Ditto Taylor. The Left side held perfectly. Bulaga did adequate. McCray probably should have helped Linsley more, but I don't know if the play or if they slid protection to one side or the other. He may have done he job as instructed on the play--I can't say perfectly, because I get a little squinty at linemen who aren't hitting anyone on a play.

5. Hindsight, but perhaps they should have slid 88 to Right side to help with blocking Mack's side. We could potentially blame both Rodgers and McCarthy there.

On that one play, I would summarize:

•The line did their job
•The ball didn't come out fast enough
•The playcall may not have been optimal
•No TE is at fault--one wasn't on the field (or if one one was, he was aligned at a WR)
•No RB is at fault--he was aligned to the offensive left and immediately ran a route

I'd give the majority of the blame to Rodgers and McCarthy.

And that whole spiel is why several of us are picking on your argument. There are too many parts *other* than the offensive line that are responsible for sacks given up. TEs, RBs, the playcall, shifting protections, and the Quarterback.

If the QB guy slides the protection the wrong way, creating a free rusher, that's the QB's fault. Not the line.

If the RB wiffs on a blitz pickup, again, not the o-line's fault.

If the playcall has 5 men running patterns and the quarterback identifies 6 rushers, it is now his responsibility to
a) Hot route a back or TE to block
b) Be responsible for the 6th man by throwing the pass before the rush makes it to him. He'll probably get popped anyway, but after the ball is gone.

And again, if the QB is dancing in the backfield for 5 seconds, can't decide who to throw to, bails out of the pocket, and gets hit by a safety rolling up to protected the flat, it certainly isn't the line's fault.

I think you're missing my point.

I think they did try to mask for deficiencies and because we still were near the bottom of the league in sacks and hits it's simply not good enough.

Am I going to go through every play to prove this? No. Do I think Rodgers is partly to blame? Sure. But you know what, we've known the type of player Rodgers is for some time now. He holds onto the ball longer than most QB's. You know who else does? Mahomes. He was sacked 26 times last year. Half as much as Rodgers.

My theory is that there are things that can be done, which are not being done effectively, to protect Rodgers more. Maybe it means more running plays and a sea change to a power running game. Either way, the stats have shown us that mobile QB's can be protected. QB's who hold the ball longer can be protected. What is unique about GB that this can't be done?

2018: 53 sacks
2017: 51 sacks
2016: 35 sacks - much more respectable. The eventual erosion of the right side of the line maybe explains for our dip past this point.

To get back to the original discussion. Is this "one of the best" pass blocking lines in the league? No. Not when our QB is hit more than 100 times and is bottom three in the league in sacks. Regardless of who or which position group is to blame.

 

[mradtke66]

To get back to the original discussion. Is this "one of the best" pass blocking lines in the league? No. Not when our QB is hit more than 100 times and is bottom three in the league in sacks. Regardless of who or which position group is to blame.

Hold up. Read that again. You literally just said the line is bad even if another position group is to blame?

You just typed that.

If I may use your logic, can I blame Michael's Crafts Stores because I don't like the burgers I can get at McDonald's?

This may be most idiotic thing I have heard this year. You have set the bar.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

Hold up. Read that again. You literally just said the line is bad even if another position group is to blame?

You just typed that.

If I may use your logic, can I blame Michael's Crafts Stores because I don't like the burgers I can get at McDonald's?

This may be most idiotic thing I have heard this year. You have set the bar.

I think you need to re-read literally EVERYTHING I have written. If a line cannot make up for the deficiencies of others, then they're equally responsible for the blame IMO. THAT IS MY POINT. That you didn't see that and then lambast me FOR MAKING MY POINT is unbelievable. Further, if it's the most idiotic thing you've read, try arguing with someone who thinks it's an elite pass blocking oline when their QB gets sacked the third most in the whole league. Some people...

 

[mradtke66]

I think you need to re-read literally EVERYTHING I have written. If a line cannot make up for the deficiencies of others, then they're equally responsible for the blame IMO. THAT IS MY POINT. That you didn't see that and then lambast me FOR MAKING MY POINT is unbelievable. Further, if it's the most idiotic thing you've read, try arguing with someone who thinks it's an elite pass blocking oline when their QB gets sacked the third most in the whole league. Some people...

If that is your criteria, you have set yourself up to be disappointed. And as far as I know, you're the only person using the failures of others to harp on another position group.

 

[GreenNGold_81]

If that is your criteria, you have set yourself up to be disappointed. And as far as I know, you're the only person using the failures of others to harp on another position group.

So let's all have the same opinions on message boards guys! c'mon guys!!

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

 

[Deleted member 6794]

My theory is that there are things that can be done, which are not being done effectively, to protect Rodgers more. Maybe it means more running plays and a sea change to a power running game.

The Packers should definitely run the ball more often this season but the offensive line isn't build to excel in a power running scheme.

If a line cannot make up for the deficiencies of others, then they're equally responsible for the blame IMO. THAT IS MY POINT. Further, if it's the most idiotic thing you've read, try arguing with someone who thinks it's an elite pass blocking oline when their QB gets sacked the third most in the whole league. Some people...

I have to agree with mradtke that it is one of the most idiotic points someone has tried to make on this forum in a long time.

If you truly think that to be correct isn't it all Rodgers fault for not being able to make up for the deficiencies of offensive line not being able to make up for the deficiences of others???