Pass to RBs more under Lafleur?

PackinMSP

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Those little 2 yd gain dump offs that ANYONEs grandma could convert are the epitome of cheap

...but they work
 
D

Deleted member 6794

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outside of the two-minute o, scrambling, or the defense doing something completely stupid (like not enough men on the field (or too many), lining up and completely ignoring someone, or something similar) there's no need for rodgers to go off-script and i don't want to see it. it's not just rodgers being defiant, he'd be encouraging it from others...undermining MLF, and making the whole process a waste of time...when there isn't any to waste.

Yeah, I hate it when stuff like that happens as well ;)

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-...ay-Jared-Cook-makes-incredible-toe-drag-catch

You don't know his body can't deal with the punishment until he gets hurt though and if you put him on a snap count you won't know if he is capable of staying healthy or not.

Jones getting injured twice while having a low number of touches kind of indicates he's not able to withstand receiving more than 20 touches a game though.
 

Mondio

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Jones just doesn't seem to have a body type to withstand that punishment. I don't know why, but I just don't get the "durable" impression when I look at him. Shifty and dynamic. he can be a home run hitter, but I just don't see a down to down reliable back. I don't even know how much bigger Williams is, i don't know how tall or how much either ways, but Williams just gives me the impression he's more dependable from a physical standpoint. Some horses just work, some can race but are fickle. Sometimes it's just dumb luck and coincidence.

I think his snaps will be limited early just by the nature of the game these days, but once the last third of the season hits and we're in contention, guys will be used to their strengths and just roll with what happens.
 
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HardRightEdge

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So, lets come at this extending plays vs. short route business from another LaFleur angle.

One story line has LaFluer coming from the McVay branch of the Shanahan coaching tree. OK.

So, somewhere along the line that high scoring Rams offense is characterized as one with more quick throws and check downs, less holding of the ball, less QB ad libbing, than recent Packer offenses, right? LaFleur is going to bring Rams principles to Green Bay, right? Consider the following, where you can sort the data using the arrows at the top of each column:

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throw

I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this data, but it looks well considered. I would welcome any other source with this kind of data for comparision. So, lets consider what this data table shows pending further information.

First, lets sort "time to throw" in descending order. The first 4 are noted scrambling/running QBs. Rodgers is then #5 on the list. OK. Who's #6? Jared Goff with a time to throw number nearly identical to Rodgers. Shocking, right?

Next, it must be the case that when Rodgers extends plays he's throwing more downfield whereas Goff is more likely to take "easy" check down / short throw, right?

Well, lets sort that linked data for "average intended air yards" in decending order. That's how far the ball travelled whether it was completed or not. Rodgers is #9. OK. But who is listed at #8? Jared Goff, with an identical number down to one decimal number. The difference is a rounding error.

There were no two QBs in this league who were more similar last season in terms of average time holding the ball and how far they threw it on average. There may have been no two QBs more similar in one season in the history of the league.

Conversely, in LaFleur's first season as a play caller in Tennessee, we see Mariota ranked 21st. in time holding the ball and 29th. in average intended air yards, ranked down around where we see the more immobile pocket passers. Yet Mariota is not that.

I've already highlighted another LaFleur story line, that he likes to run the ball a lot with 2 and 3 TEs. His one Tennessee season might indicate that, but his Ram's provenance does not. The Rams used fewer TEs than the Packers last season as previously illustrated.

In these regards, QB style and run game personnel, last years Rams far more closely resembles what McCarthy ran than what LaFluer ran in Tennessee. Like I said, I'd be happy to look at other sources that might say otherwise. Was LaFleur playing possum when in LA just pretending to hang from the McVay branch? Or was he adapting to available personnel in Tennessee? Bottom line: you have two diametrically opposed offenses LaFleur is associated with over his last two seasons.

One thing's for sure. The difference between Goff going to the Super Bowl and Rodgers going 6-9-1 had nothing to do with how long on average these guys held the ball or how far they threw it.
 
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H

HardRightEdge

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You will like LaFleur. There is a reason he doesn’t want his QB’s to audible. I’m a Falcons fan and remember our fan base being upset when Shannahan did this to Ryan.

First & Foremost, your offense will be fast paced and rarely huddle. You’ll get to the LOS with 20 seconds left on the play clock. The mic in Rodgers ear won’t shut off until 14 seconds so LaFleur can make the audibles at the LOS in most situations. Inside the RZ, Rodgers should have authority to audible.

Much of LaFleur’s offense involves pre-snap activity, including extensive use of motion. By the time the protection is set and the eligibles motion, there simply may not be enough time to find the “best” play to run.

Secondly, it’s about play sequencing in this offense. Rodgers audibled at the LOS on 35% of plays last year. That doesn’t work in this offense. Each play has a purpose that Rodgers may not see.

Personnel groupings and plays are run in order to set up something else down line or try to get the defense to show its cards. On its face, the play may or may not be ideal in a specific situation, but it may also allow Rodgers, LaFleur, et al to exploit a look later on.
Your second and third paragraphs seem to contradict each other. On the one hand you say LaFleur can make the audibles pres-nap but on the other hand there is not enough time do so.

In any case, there are the other kinds of audibles even when the QB keeps his mouth shut. The QB may not like the call to start with; there are about 2.5 seconds post snap for him to be convinced otherwise. Already predisposed to not like what he's given, convicing is not the likely outcome, leading to the extended play.

A primary reason to use motion is to see how the defense reacts in order to identity the coverage, man or zone being a prime example of what motion is intended to expose. What's the point if time has run to short to alter the call? It's another kind of silent audible, the QB changing the progression in his head when the situation dictates based on that defensive reaction. Or he could go playground as with one of those Adams hand signals followed by QB recognition, or visa versa, based on what the defense presents.

A QB who just takes what he's given, suspends all disbelief, with a good arm and a mind for rote learning, while being barred from exercising and developining whatever imagination he's capable of, gets you a robo-QB. Has one of those guys won a Super Bowl? Is Tom Brady a robo-QB? I'd say "no" and "no". I might have given Goff short shrift in the past calling him a robo-QB. Looking now at his time to throw matching Rodgers', his ad libbing is probably pretty frequent. The Rams might win something with him. In any case, the idea that LaFluer will have "an answer for everything" as the story goes didn't play out for his mentor as the Rams were stymied by a good but not great New England defense. McVay was outcoached.

This robo-QB model makes a lot of sense in college football where boy starting QBs come and go like the wind as eligibility expires or a first round pick looms before they ever acquire the skills to take control of an offense. It makes sense in the NFL with inexperienced QBs.

It's kind of interesting that LaFluer recently conceded that he may send in an audible play along with the called play. If the All Pro offensive tackle Joe Thomas is to be believed, and I've heard it said by others, sending in two plays is standard operating procedure in the NFL, a run audible to go with a pass call and visa versa. Not doing so stikes me as an over-controlling approach which a QB of these abilities, yet that was evidently his default approach coming in. Without adaptability on LaFleur's part, it looks like hubris.

And in the end, it doesn't appear Rodgers is going to put up with this kind of control. Trade Rodgers! The contract makes that impossible. So, what's LaFleur going to do about it? Bang his head against the wall? Or show flexibility and adaptation.

It's like we're talking about some mediocrity at QB who goes off the reservation. You know, as recently as 2016, Rodgers was third in MVP voting. When you set aside the stats (htough his were awfully good) and focus on the "valuable", he arguably should have won that award, strapping this team to his back and carrying them to the playoffs with a roster that was not particularly good.

Ryan didn't win the prize. The Rams havn't, at leat not yet. Brees overrides plays in the huddle with regularity we've come to learn, and he's won a Super Bowl; who knows if one fluke play and another non-interference call had gone the other way.

The only things I worry or wonder about with Rodgers are:

1) Will his recent injuries, the plate that still sits in that throwing shoulder and a residual knee injury with surgery foregone, show up in reduction of physical skills. And if that is the case, will he acknowledge the facts and make the mental adjustments to reduced skills.

2) In the back of my mind I sometimes wonder if he's gone a little loopy. UFO sightings? Game of Thrones obsession? Maybe he's always been that way, off-field preoccupations partitioned off from football, and only recently more revelatory. I don't know. Just wondering. Will probably never know.
 
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D

Deleted member 6794

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that's the old, failed, offence in two minute mode. i said that would be an exception in the new system.

Stop acting like the Packers offense hasn't been successful during Rodgers career. They rank third in points scored since the start of the 2008 season.

Consider the following, where you can sort the data using the arrows at the top of each column:

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throw

I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this data, but it looks well considered. I would welcome any other source with this kind of data for comparision. So, lets consider what this data table shows pending further information.

First, lets sort "time to throw" in descending order. The first 4 are noted scrambling/running QBs. Rodgers is then #5 on the list. OK. Who's #6? Jared Goff with a time to throw number nearly identical to Rodgers. Shocking, right?

Next, it must be the case that when Rodgers extends plays he's throwing more downfield whereas Goff is more likely to take "easy" check down / short throw, right?

Well, lets sort that linked data for "average intended air yards" in decending order. That's how far the ball travelled whether it was completed or not. Rodgers is #9. OK. But who is listed at #8? Jared Goff, with an identical number down to one decimal number. The difference is a rounding error.

There were no two QBs in this league who were more similar last season in terms of average time holding the ball and how far they threw it on average. There may have been no two QBs more similar in one season in the history of the league.

Conversely, in LaFleur's first season as a play caller in Tennessee, we see Mariota ranked 21st. in time holding the ball and 29th. in average intended air yards, ranked down around where we see the more immobile pocket passers. Yet Mariota is not that.

According to PFF Rodgers (2.75) ranked fifth in most time to throw among 39 quarterbacks who took at least 150 dropbacks last season with Goff (2.72) listed at eighth and Mariota (2.51) tied for 20th.

Unfortunately they don't offer information on intended air yards.
 
H

HardRightEdge

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According to PFF Rodgers (2.75) ranked fifth in most time to throw among 39 quarterbacks who took at least 150 dropbacks last season with Goff (2.72) listed at eighth and Mariota (2.51) tied for 20th.

Unfortunately they don't offer information on intended air yards.
That's interesting. PFF consistently clocks around 0.2 seconds less than what nextgenstats shows. Just a guess, but it may be the case that nextgenstats starts the clock at the snap whereas PFF may start the clock when the QB touches the ball. If so, pistol and shotgun snaps would account for some or all of the difference.

In any even, the PFF rankings of those QBs and their nearly identical Rodgers/Goff numbers support my earlier argument.
 

gopkrs

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Stop acting like the Packers offense hasn't been successful during Rodgers career. They rank third in points scored since the start of the 2008 season.



According to PFF Rodgers (2.75) ranked fifth in most time to throw among 39 quarterbacks who took at least 150 dropbacks last season with Goff (2.72) listed at eighth and Mariota (2.51) tied for 20th.

Unfortunately they don't offer information on intended air yards.
I imagine that because Rodgers has an ability to scramble; the time he has to throw increases considerably over other QBs.
 

FalconsFan2019

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Your second and third paragraphs seem to contradict each other. On the one hand you say LaFleur can make the audibles pres-nap but on the other hand there is not enough time do so.

In any case, there are the other kinds of audibles even when the QB keeps his mouth shut. The QB may not like the call to start with; there are about 2.5 seconds post snap for him to be convinced otherwise. Already predisposed to not like what he's given, convicing is not the likely outcome, leading to the extended play.

A primary reason to use motion is to see how the defense reacts in order to identity the coverage, man or zone being a prime example of what motion is intended to expose. What's the point if time has run to short to alter the call? It's another kind of silent audible, the QB changing the progression in his head when the situation dictates based on that defensive reaction. Or he could go playground as with one of those Adams hand signals followed by QB recognition, or visa versa, based on what the defense presents.

A QB who just takes what he's given, suspends all disbelief, with a good arm and a mind for rote learning, while being barred from exercising and developining whatever imagination he's capable of, gets you a robo-QB. Has one of those guys won a Super Bowl? Is Tom Brady a robo-QB? I'd say "no" and "no". I might have given Goff short shrift in the past calling him a robo-QB. Looking now at his time to throw matching Rodgers', his ad libbing is probably pretty frequent. The Rams might win something with him. In any case, the idea that LaFluer will have "an answer for everything" as the story goes didn't play out for his mentor as the Rams were stymied by a good but not great New England defense. McVay was outcoached.

This robo-QB model makes a lot of sense in college football where boy starting QBs come and go like the wind as eligibility expires or a first round pick looms before they ever acquire the skills to take control of an offense. It makes sense in the NFL with inexperienced QBs.

It's kind of interesting that LaFluer recently conceded that he may send in an audible play along with the called play. If the All Pro offensive tackle Joe Thomas is to be believed, and I've heard it said by others, sending in two plays is standard operating procedure in the NFL, a run audible to go with a pass call and visa versa. Not doing so stikes me as an over-controlling approach which a QB of these abilities, yet that was evidently his default approach coming in. Without adaptability on LaFleur's part, it looks like hubris.

And in the end, it doesn't appear Rodgers is going to put up with this kind of control. Trade Rodgers! The contract makes that impossible. So, what's LaFleur going to do about it? Bang his head against the wall? Or show flexibility and adaptation.

It's like we're talking about some mediocrity at QB who goes off the reservation. You know, as recently as 2016, Rodgers was third in MVP voting. When you set aside the stats (htough his were awfully good) and focus on the "valuable", he arguably should have won that award, strapping this team to his back and carrying them to the playoffs with a roster that was not particularly good.

Ryan didn't win the prize. The Rams havn't, at leat not yet. Brees overrides plays in the huddle with regularity we've come to learn, and he's won a Super Bowl; who knows if one fluke play and another non-interference call had gone the other way.

The only things I worry or wonder about with Rodgers are:

1) Will his recent injuries, the plate that still sits in that throwing shoulder and a residual knee injury with surgery foregone, show up in reduction of physical skills. And if that is the case, will he acknowledge the facts and make the mental adjustments to reduced skills.

2) In the back of my mind I sometimes wonder if he's gone a little loopy. UFO sightings? Game of Thrones obsession? Maybe he's always been that way, off-field preoccupations partitioned off from football, and only recently more revelatory. I don't know. Just wondering. Will probably never know.

The 1st and 2nd don’t oppose one another. They will be at the line quickly, with 20 seconds on the play clock. At that point an audible can be made. But in this system, an audible is built in. Rodgers will have something he can check to on every single play. It might not be the perfect play or what Rodgers would call, but it will be a solid option. But Rodgers can’t audible on 35% of the plays like last year. It will be self sabotage. Inside the RZ, he will have full audible ability, but nowhere else.


Here is an article:

SANTA CLARA – USA Today called Rams coach Sean McVay’s tactic to get quarterback Jared Goff to the line quickly, so he could call audibles for him, “Ingenious.” The story cited commentator Tony Romo saying that Goff does more at the line of scrimmage than any young player he has ever seen.

However, it’s not McVay’s manuever. It’s Kyle Shanahan’s. The 49ers head coach started doing it as an offensive coordinator in Washington and then Atlanta. McVay was an assistant tight ends coach and then a tight ends coach when Shanahan was Washington’s offensive coordinator for four seasons (2010-13).

McVay then became the Redskins offensive coordinator after Shanahan left in 2014. There’s plenty of cross coaching between the two young head coaches. Shanahan’s receivers coach and passing game coordinator is Mike LaFleur. His brother Matt is the offensive coordinator for the Rams.

“We have done that all year with our guys too,” Shanahan said of hustling to the line so Shanahan can help his quarterbacks adjust to the defensive looks. “That’s nothing new. We’ll do that at times (on Sunday). … That’s part of our offense.”

It’s one reason the 49ers have gone to lots of hurry up plays this year. Last season in Atlanta, the Falcons took very little time between plays so Shanahan could help with audibles. The speaker in the helmet of the quarterback shuts off the voice of the play caller after 15 seconds, which can allow Shanahan some time to help his quarterbacks adjust if the team gets to the line quickly.

“There’s a loud beeping sound so I know when (the 15 seconds is up),” Shanahan said.
 

FalconsFan2019

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To add onto my previous post. From Kyle Shannahan on audibles in his system:

Is there any way you could give your quarterback, how much leeway will you give Brian to change the call and what’s the process for that?

KS: “Yeah, there’s two different types of systems and I think people make a huge deal about it, but some people get right up to the line and they don’t ever move. They have a play call that’s premier versus specific coverage. They don’t have as many hot routes built in. They have guys blocking in and they are all deep routes. So, if you don’t get the right looks you have to check and audible. That’s stuff you guys see [former NFL QB] Peyton Manning do every single play of his career. It’s stuff you’ve seen Matt do a lot of his career. Then there’s the type of systems that you have certain plays designed where if it’s not the premier look you have another answer. You’re supposed to go to the guy on the backside. There’s a quick route right there. There’s a guy in the flat. There’s some type of other answer. It depends on how you build your system. There’s no right or wrong answer. Both have their pluses and minuses. I believe in playing fast and not having to get up there and sit at the line forever and have to look at all these things and get yourself into the perfect play. As a play caller, I always try to call the perfect play, which doesn’t happen all the time. If it’s not the perfect play, there’s usually four other options that you’ve just got to adjust to and either get an incompletion or get a smaller gain. But, it’s not, ‘Hey, if I don’t call the perfect play, you check and get us into the perfect play.’ I’ve been in systems like that and it’s just what your opinion is and there’s really no right answer, but I was pretty happy with how our system worked in Atlanta and I’ve been confident with players playing fast and not putting so much pressure on them to fix every play that the coordinator calls. I like to put a little more on myself and I want them when I do call a bad play, we’ll give you an answer. Just get rid of it and go right there.”

In other words, so if the audible is built into--?

KS: “There’s certain plays in a game, we don’t have as many of them as other people where, ‘Hey, all these guys are blocking. You don’t have any quick answer versus these three looks that they’ve shown on tape. So if you get there and it’s these three looks they’ve shown on tape, we’ve got to audible to this. However, usually those plays in our system, I just call two plays and I say if you get that look change it to the other play. So, just depends how you do it.”
 

FalconsFan2019

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My final point. Matt Ryan isn’t the physical specimen that A-Rod is. Before the Shannahan system, he was a top-10 QB. Now he is a top-5 QB.

Since implementing the same system you will run, he has become a better statistical QB than Rodgers. In every single measurable metric. So imagine what Rodgers could do if he puts aside his pride and runs the offense. Less thinking and more reacting may just be what he needs.
 

gopkrs

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I think the primary reason they have not done as well offensively lately is because of McCarthy's stale system. But also because the O line has not been the greatest and Rodgers has had some injuries. All that is changing this year.
 
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Deleted member 6794

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true but as rodgers went more and more off script the O has sucked more and more. remember the reasons they abandoned it?

Rodgers missing most of the 2017 season as well as getting injured in the first game of last year is the main reason the offense has struggled over the past two seasons.

But also because the O line has not been the greatest and Rodgers has had some injuries. All that is changing this year.

Once again, pass protection hasn't been an issue over the past few seasons.
 

gopkrs

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Rodgers missing most of the 2017 season as well as getting injured in the first game of last year is the main reason the offense has struggled over the past two seasons.



Once again, pass protection hasn't been an issue over the past few seasons.
Wimm, you just agreed with my post where I said that Rodgers creates a lot of time for himself by running away from the rush. Because of that, the stats show that he actually has more time than the O line really gives him. Many pundits have said that the O line does not give him much time before he has to scramble. (some even say just about zero time) So I believe protection has been an issue and that we will do better at it with the new blood (and coaching) we have on the O line.
 
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Wimm, you just agreed with my post where I said that Rodgers creates a lot of time for himself by running away from the rush. Because of that, the stats show that he actually has more time than the O line really gives him. Many pundits have said that the O line does not give him much time before he has to scramble. (some even say just about zero time) So I believe protection has been an issue and that we will do better at it with the new blood (and coaching) we have on the O line.

Rodgers often scrambles without being pressured though. While the Packers have lacked quality depth on the offensive line their starters have mostly been excellent in pass protection.
 

gopkrs

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Rodgers often scrambles without being pressured though. While the Packers have lacked quality depth on the offensive line their starters have mostly been excellent in pass protection.
Yeah OK, we have had an elite offensive line.
 
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Yeah OK, we have had an elite offensive line.

The Packers starting offensive line was one of the best in the league in pass protection over the past few seasons. They struggled blocking for the run though.

While the backups weren't up to the task you might want to take a look around the league to see how many teams have way more issues not allowing pressure.

the reason it was abandoned was the predictability, the staleness, the dependence on rodgers having to be superman.

Once again, the Packers had an elite offense until Rodgers broke his collarbone early in 2017 though.
 

GreenNGold_81

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The Packers starting offensive line was one of the best in the league in pass protection over the past few seasons. They struggled blocking for the run though.

While the backups weren't up to the task you might want to take a look around the league to see how many teams have way more issues not allowing pressure.



Once again, the Packers had an elite offense until Rodgers broke his collarbone early in 2017 though.

3rd most in QB hits, 10th most in QB sacks last year. Obviously, some of that is Rodgers leaving the pocket, but if a line is "one of the best" you'd at least expect that they'd be in the bottom 10 or 5 in both categories. Instead, it's the complete opposite end of the spectrum.
 

gopkrs

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3rd most in QB hits, 10th most in QB sacks last year. Obviously, some of that is Rodgers leaving the pocket, but if a line is "one of the best" you'd at least expect that they'd be in the bottom 10 or 5 in both categories. Instead, it's the complete opposite end of the spectrum.
Sometimes Rodgers can just see he will not have enough time for a play to develop and needs to do something on his own...that is create more time. Which will mess up some patterns but so will a sack.
 
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HardRightEdge

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3rd most in QB hits, 10th most in QB sacks last year. Obviously, some of that is Rodgers leaving the pocket....
It's not just Rodgers leaving the pocket. It's Rodgers leaving the pocket not as quickly as in the past.

While there have always been QBs faster than Rodgers who could bail out to the sidelines and outrun the edge chaser, nobody has ever been so uncanny as Rodgers in slipping and sliding up and out of the pocket. The offensive line should get credit for providing holding blocks and providing the space for him to do it.

With diminished quickness he took more sacks on those plays last season, particularly up to week 10 with a noticeable limp for gosh sakes.

We only later find out that Rodgers injury wasn't just a knee sprain. He also had a tibial plateau fracture, the same injury that caused J.J. Watt to missed the last 3 months of the 2017 season:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...gers-details-tibial-fracture-concussion-in-18

For all the heat Rodgers took last season from some quarters, and continues to take now, credit where credit is due--the dude is a warrior.

Now, Rodgers did not undergo offseason surgery. Will there be residual affects from this injury? Perhaps another rodeo where the slip/slide capability is diminished? If so, the question becomes how Rodgers can adapt his game to that limitation. We await preseason to get a hint.
 
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The Packers would definitely benefit from getting the running backs more involved in the passing game but Jones hasn't been above average in that area so far.
I was just going to mention that.
Don’t sleep on Jamaal Williams either, getting an increased role on passing downs. He’s both a young and budding effective blocker and receiver.
 
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