Official Studs n duds Ravens

[tynimiller]

Yiadom: running into the punt receiver. WTH was he thinking? I think they should have cut him on the spot. Make all the other STers to think a bit more.

Issue with this is as BAAAAD as our ST's have been Yiadom has been one of the above average guys on the coverage teams...WAS A BONEHEAD PLAY FOR SURE

 

[red4tribe]

Easy to say until the other team throws over the top for a quick score.

There's a balance to it. You can mix prevent with some tighter coverage, especially once you keep getting burned for 10 yards underneath. The overemphasis on prevent defense blew a large 4Q lead so that strategy obviously didn't work.

 

[gopkrs]

I saw Galeai losing contain on two runs by Huntley as well. For some reason the Packers forgot about it once they went up by 14.

And really something so easy to change during the game. Rashan, for example, could have been going more to the outside. And it would not have affected his ability to get to the QB. He got close a bunch but that only counts in horseshoes and...Same with Preston. I think Barry did do some adjustments in the second half that helped but that wasn't one of them. He played Barnes more it seemed like.

 

[gopkrs]

There's a balance to it. You can mix prevent with some tighter coverage, especially once you keep getting burned for 10 yards underneath. The overemphasis on prevent defense blew a large 4Q lead so that strategy obviously didn't work.

So long as there are no dreaded 3 man rushes. Like on the QB TD run. Of course, I guess we only had 10 men on the field. Still, a 3 man rush would have allowed him to run around all day. And the run would have probably still been open.

 

[sschind]

I just find it so amusing how often when MVS puts uphh something in the statlines folks think he is FINALLY coming through or what not. MVS has done nothing but ball out since the last third of the 2020 season to now. Blocking, routes, hands, awareness...

I don't know if I would say he has balled out. Up until the last 4 games I had to check the box score to see if he was even active. I realize that box score stats aren't the definitive stats but up until the vikings game I'd say his contribution had been meh at best. Certainly not up to what I was expecting after last seasons finish.

What I find amusing is that after a seasons worth of underperforming a player has decent game, not even a good game but one just above his average, or maybe he has one very good play and people say he's finally turned the corner. I know seen post like that about EQ and Deguara and probably a few others.

 

[tynimiller]

I don't know if I would say he has balled out. Up until the last 4 games I had to check the box score to see if he was even active. I realize that box score stats aren't the definitive stats but up until the vikings game I'd say his contribution had been meh at best. Certainly not up to what I was expecting after last seasons finish.

What I find amusing is that after a seasons worth of underperforming a player has decent game, not even a good game but one just above his average, or maybe he has one very good play and people say he's finally turned the corner. I know seen post like that about EQ and Deguara and probably a few others.

He has missed some games this year due to injury (hamstring). When active he has done exactly what he needs to.

 

[easyk83]

I don't know if I would say he has balled out. Up until the last 4 games I had to check the box score to see if he was even active. I realize that box score stats aren't the definitive stats but up until the vikings game I'd say his contribution had been meh at best. Certainly not up to what I was expecting after last seasons finish.

What I find amusing is that after a seasons worth of underperforming a player has decent game, not even a good game but one just above his average, or maybe he has one very good play and people say he's finally turned the corner. I know seen post like that about EQ and Deguara and probably a few others.

So is an above average 3 point specialist who hits around 40% beyond the arc but has a below average FG% a bad player in your mind?

Tynmiller has done some work on this but yes he's one of the best deep threats in the league right now. In terms of his usage its likely that we lack the horses to really utilize him in the passing game. A guy who's at his best 20 yards downfield and deeper is going to be harder to use when 80% of your OL is in street clothes.

 

[tynimiller]

For reference inclusive of the game shortened due to injury he has seen 9 games active. In that stretch of games for just the statline caring folks MVS has been targeted an average of around 9 times a game, 3 receptions a game and about 50 yards a game. That is with a few games where he didn't start (he has only started 6) and as many will probably remember Rodgers has missed MVS arguably more than any season prior on throws. This year it hasn't been his hands at all for the amount of receptions vs targets like in year's past - as of today it doesn't appear he has been credited with a single drop yet...last year he had 7 total attributed to him.

 

[easyk83]

And where does he rank next to comparable specialists?

 

[tynimiller]

Tynmiller has done some work on this but yes he's one of the best deep threats in the league right now. In terms of his usage its likely that we lack the horses to really utilize him in the passing game. A guy who's at his best 20 yards downfield and deeper is going to be harder to use when 80% of your OL is in street clothes.

Lord ain't that the truth. I've broken him down in detail vs other pure deep threats over the history of the NFL. This year the team's offense struggling with time for Rodgers (OL woes) and just the overall efficiency rate not being as high PLUS his hamstring injury PLUS Rodgers missing him numerous times this year cleanly makes one look at his line and really think MVS is lacking. Quite the contrary though. Had he just been healthy he would have most likely 200-300 more yards, and flirting with a 1,000 yard season.

 

[tynimiller]

And where does he rank next to comparable specialists?

I'll have to search for past posts where I did this. Lunch time will allow this searching.

 

[tynimiller]

Will add, if you research or watch tape, over the end of last year and this year MVS's routes have changed up some. Intermediate routes and usage has started occurring - which is an excellent sign. There have been in the years of the league a lot of field stretching rookie contract guys that never add much more to their game. MVS's blocking and growth route wise has illustrated that his ceiling is higher than a one trick pony WR - now whether that is achieved is anyone's best guess and is pure speculation for the most part.

 

[sschind]

He has missed some games this year due to injury (hamstring). When active he has done exactly what he needs to.

For reference inclusive of the game shortened due to injury he has seen 9 games active. In that stretch of games for just the statline caring folks MVS has been targeted an average of around 9 times a game, 3 receptions a game and about 50 yards a game. That is with a few games where he didn't start (he has only started 6) and as many will probably remember Rodgers has missed MVS arguably more than any season prior on throws. This year it hasn't been his hands at all for the amount of receptions vs targets like in year's past - as of today it doesn't appear he has been credited with a single drop yet...last year he had 7 total attributed to him.

That is why I said up until the viking game. In the 5 active games prior he had 9 receptions and one of those games was 1 catch for 41 yards. That can skew some stats. The last 4 is more like I was expecting from him after the way he finished last season. I would agree that he has certainly balled out in the last 4 weeks. Some of that may be attributed to the recovery from the injury earlier in the season but still, IMO what we saw from MVS up until the the last 4 games can hardly be considered balling out. Thus I would disagree with your statement that since the last third last season he has done nothing but ball out. The end of last season? Yes. The last 4 games? Certainly, but the time in between not so much.

So is an above average 3 point specialist who hits around 40% beyond the arc but has a below average FG% a bad player in your mind?

Tynmiller has done some work on this but yes he's one of the best deep threats in the league right now. In terms of his usage its likely that we lack the horses to really utilize him in the passing game. A guy who's at his best 20 yards downfield and deeper is going to be harder to use when 80% of your OL is in street clothes.

I don't think I have ever watched the equivalent of a full basketball game in my life. I have no idea if 40 percent is good for a 3 point shooter or what an average FG percentage is. The way you asked the question though I am going to assume that I should say no to that question.

As far as usage we may have fewer horses now than we did earlier in the year so why have the last 4 games been so different. Injury and recovery? Like I said I'm willing to allow for that but I'm not going to agree that MVS has been some sort of stud all season long.

I should add that what I said about a player having 1 good game and people saying he has turned the corner did not apply to MVS.

 

[tynimiller]

That is why I said up until the viking game. In the 5 active games prior he had 9 receptions and one of those games was 1 catch for 41 yards. That can skew some stats. The last 4 is more like I was expecting from him after the way he finished last season. I would agree that he has certainly balled out in the last 4 weeks. Some of that may be attributed to the recovery from the injury earlier in the season but still, IMO what we saw from MVS up until the the last 4 games can hardly be considered balling out. Thus I would disagree with your statement that since the last third last season he has done nothing but ball out. The end of last season? Yes. The last 4 games? Certainly, but the time in between not so much.

I don't think I have ever watched the equivalent of a full basketball game in my life. I have no idea if 40 percent is good for a 3 point shooter or what an average FG percentage is. The way you asked the question though I am going to assume that I should say no to that question.

As far as usage we may have fewer horses now than we did earlier in the year so why have the last 4 games been so different. Injury and recovery? Like I said I'm willing to allow for that but I'm not going to agree that MVS has been some sort of stud all season long.

LOL that last part is all folks boil down to. This offense and this team his role is not to be the leader in yards, receptions, targets or TDs. One can be a stud in their role and not even throw up a stat blip on the radar. Which is why many screamed bloody murder at me when I felt MVS had his best game of the 2020 season to date at the time against the Bears. He saw zero targets and zero receptions...but his role , his routes, and his blocking was executed near perfection.

MVS is a guy in the MLF system who can literally run routes the exact same two weeks in a row, be just as open two weeks in a row and see zero targets or 9 depending on what AR and MLF are seeing and the defense is doing. Just simply is the way it is, especially when you are clearly first and foremost going to try and feed your best weapons in Adams, Jones and Dillon.

I personally view MVS as having been since that Eagles game last year a stud for the stretch and times in. Doesn't mean he has been perfect, shoot Rodgers has blown more passes this year at times than I feel we've grown accustom to (I can think of three last night that shocked me)...but overall STUD without question.

Edited: it was the Bears game last year not the Eagles my original post claimed, I knew it was the Eagles once I posted so went back and searched posts.

 

[realitybytez]

studs: aaron rodgers, marquez valdes-scantling, marcedes lewis
duds: special teams, joe barry

 

[lambeaulambo]

Who is Tugboat?

He's not a Mercedes lol

 

[Magooch]

Studs:
- Rodgers continues playing very, very well. Should be a big part of the MVP conversation though I suspect for off-field reasons he probably won't be a serious candidate
- Deguara and Big Dawg. Deguara seems to be finding more confidence and opportunities and just keeps showing promise for me in general. Lewis continues to be a solid 'safety blanket' player and still has to command some respect from defenses
- Stenavich. Offer this guy a lifetime contract and let him name his price.
- MVS had one of his better games for us IMO

Duds:
- Special teams continues to find new ways to mess something up
- Interior DL had a forgettable game
- In general the defense has seemed to be playing a bit 'soft' in recent weeks and felt like Barry had little by way of answers/adjustments in last night's game, esp. as the Ravens repeatedly made Mark Andrews have his way with us...

 

[tynimiller]

@easyk83 @sschind both of you prompted my trying to find the old posts. Found a couple of mine:

Feel as though this needs seen more than buried this deep in this thread but best place. So I'm compiling stats of all WRs drafted since 2017 to now. Not done, BUT let's look at how MVS stacks against ALL the drafted wide receivers of his draft which of course was 2018:

MVS - 192 Targets - 97 Receptions - 1,723 yards - 17.8 YPC - 10 TDs - 50.5 Ctch%


There were 33 selected WRs in 2018:

Games
MVS leads all WRs with 48 games active in. Russell Gage/Anthony Miller tied with 47 for second and three tied for third (Gallup/Moore/Hamilton)

Games Started
MVS has the third most games started with 32. Only Gallup (35) and DJ Moore (39) have more. Moore was a 1st rounder and Gallup a 3rd.

Targets
MVS ranks 9th and is one of only two WRs in the top ten not selected 3rd round or higher.

Receptions
MVS again ranks 9th and is again one of only two WRs in the top ten not selected 3rd round or higher.

Yards
MVS is 7th on this list and is the ONLY WR drafted after the 3rd in the top 10.

Y/R
MVS ranks 2nd* at 17.8
Richie James (18.1) has a third of the targets and receptions as MVS.

Touchdowns
MVS has 10 which is tied with Cortland Sutton and DJ Moore for 7th. He is the only WR inside the top 12 drafted after the 3rd round.

Catch percentage
MVS ranks on a whole at 26th out of all. Ranks 22nd if you limited results to only WRs with 25 receptions minimum.

On the Catch Percentage further...I found it crazy that MVS is at 50.5 at the moment...Michael Gallup is only at 55.2 with about 100 more targets than MVS. Courtland Sutton is at 54.7% with only about 20 more targets than MVS. His hands are truly his ONLY weakness which is illustrated by his statistics (we all know his route tree is still growing as well).

It is mind boggling to see MVS routinely in the Top 10, 5 3 or leading categories being the LAST pick of the 5th round.

Of that group of WRs he has clearly leaped way over his draft position as far as what he delivered the most. Only one other WR overshot by a lot given their draft spot.

Russell Gage (ATL) - 6th rounder has 1,295 Yards on 127 Receptions, 5 TDs and Catch % of 65.8

BUT THAT isn't the discussion. There are VERY few people here that were of the mindset: man our WR room is an A+ and don't need a thing. I was pissed we didn't draft a WR.

However, instead due to all this frustration over not drafting or bringing in a big name...many have chosen to live in a fantasy world with MVS. In this world literally EVERYTHING that happens in a game that is negative is MVS's fault...and if not (on the rare occasion) it is Kevin King's fault.

It has gotten to a ludacris level. Adams has dropped bunnies this year, Lazard...Tonyan...yes MVS has had more, however one has to realize he is purely a deep threat or big play type wide receiver (added because clearly some misunderstood the term). If anyone spends just a minute analyzing completion percentages as the yards of the pass increases you'll realize % complete expectations need to drop for a WR (except the incredibly special aka Adams). His three seasons here has been 52.1%, 46.4% & 52.4% catch percentages. Terrible for a possession type WR like a Lazard (67.3 and 71.7) BUT for a guy that literally has a yards per reception of 20.9 (BLOWS rest of league away this season) MVS's catch % is not too far off base for deep ball guys.

Take Kenny Stills as example, Has always averaged around that 15 yards per reception figure being a deep ball threat. His career average catch percentage is 59.6 but has had 3 seasons over 60% and two over 70%. Stills to me sets the goal for MVS...BUT here's the crazy thing. If MVS could push his catch percentage just up 5 ticks (5%) and stay around that 54-58% range, the dude could make the argument of being one of the special deep threats in the league.

Few other recent names of deep ball guys everyone will recognize:

Devery Henderson - many consider one of the best deep ball guys of recent years(had 3 seasons eclipsing the 20 yards per reception figure) and he averaged only 55.4%. He only broke 60% on two seasons and had 3 below 50%. This was all with a HOF quarterback by the name of Drew Brees flinging it to him for nearly all those years.

Desean Jackson - led the league in Y/R 4 different times (two of those times over 20.0)..catch percentage average for his career...56%. Those four years he led the league in Y/R his %s were 49.5% - 58.9% - 56% - 55.4%

Vincent Jackson - Averaged over 16 yards a recept for his career, led the league one year and averaged ONLY 52.2 catch percentage. The dude only broke 60% one time in his career.

James Jett - Led the league one year in Y/R and averaged over 17 yards a recept for his career....his career average was literally ONLY 47.7%. He broke 55% only one time in 2001 when he only had 3 targets and 2 receptions...so really NEVER. The year he led the league...his percentage was only 42.3%

Malcom Floyd - Led the league once, broke 20 once and averaged 17.3 over his career in Y/R. His career average catch % was 56.3%. He had only 3 seasons over 60% (one being the year he led the league) The year he averaged 24.8 (didn't lead the league shockingly) he averaged 54.5%

Josh Gordon - Never led the league but career average is 17.2 Y/R. His catch percentage has never been over 58% and career average is 53.5%

Flipper Anderson - Only half his career did they track catch %...but dude averaged for a career over 20 Y/R (4th best of all time) and the four seasons they did track % he averaged only 45.4%

So again, why does everyone expect some INSANE numbers for a guy that is still young, until this year showed no expanded route tree options...it just doesn't make sense at all. The crazy thing is...he isn't too far off of some INCREDIBLE player's that many would deem were elite deep ball threats in Jackson and Henderson.

His drops are incredibly frustrating, and given the nature of the game can be deflating for sure...however deep balls tossed are nearly a flip of a coin gamble - and like any gambling you do its high risk or high reward. MVS is a rare breed of a human being when it comes to the un-coachable trait called speed. The good news is, rookie contract and still plenty of time to get his hands better...he'll never be a possession type 70% or higher type guy...but man the closer he creeps to 60% the closer he is to seriously a special spot not many deep ball types see.

 

[Dantés]

1) Weird week. They got the win. Moving on.

2) The Ravens are such a good organization. The fight they put up down so many pieces is really amazing. Good for them.

 

[tynimiller]

1) Weird week. They got the win. Moving on.

2) The Ravens are such a good organization. The fight they put up down so many pieces is really amazing. Good for them.

Honestly I think they and the Packers organizationally are very similar. Coached well, managed well...

 

[PFanCan]

There was a pass interference call on a throw to Lazard. The stadium replay board only showed it once and it looked like a phantom call. Did the tv replay show it from different angles that showed some contact or a grab?

From what I saw, I don't think that it should have been called. Very little, if any, contact was made - mostly it was Lazard dropping the ball on his own.

However... IMO, I was ok with the bad call going our way. Right before half, we had a nice bomb that was clearly interfered with by the Raven defender, but wasn't called. Had that been called, we would have had a good shot at getting more points right before half. Even a FG at that point (with us getting the ball right back after the break) would have severely deflated the Ravens morale. But, the call wasn't made.

So, IMO, it evened out with those two plays.

 

[gopkrs]

The guy did hold up Lazard's momentum. He should have caught it anyway but started looking at the end zone b4 he had the ball.

 

[scotscheese]

Duds
Joe and Troy: nonstop blathering about the Ravens and their injuries. They may have mentioned once maybe twice that the Packers were missing a lot of key players as well, but the impact was glossed over. Did they even mention that Clark was out? Idiots.

Yiadom: running into the punt receiver. WTH was he thinking? I think they should have cut him on the spot. Make all the other STers to think a bit more.

Amish's theory that it might not be coaching that is ST source of incompetence: good frickin grief.

Stud:
Most were already covered but a special shout out to . . .

MVS: best game as a pro. Showed great hands.

Kenny Clark - absence from the game made me appreciate him even more. The battle in the trenches looks a whole lot different when he isn't in there.

I felt Yiadom was a bit unfortunate there. he was almost in the catchers face when he signalled, and he did try to not hit him , and only hit him side on slightly. I don't know if there's any lee-way in that rule for when signal made to being hit, along the lines of roughing the passer 2 steps?

 

[Pugger]

Few thoughts on yesterday from my perspective:

Lazard and MVS continue to deliver precisely the type of play the organization/staff needs and wants them to in MLF system. If you get a chance, watch them both on blocking - many a WR could learn a touch from both.

Deguara has answered the bell of more snaps since Tonyan went down VERY WELL. A lot of us tried to get folks to understand and expect the route running and receiving part of his game would need no help as that was his strength, it was learning blocking positioning and the speed of the NFL which would be his hurdle. He's looked comfortable out there to me for about five to six weeks, but especially over the last three, he's still essentially a rookie so no doubt will have his days but overall he's showing why Gute/MLF wanted him.

Lucas Patrick - zero pressures allowed credited his way, along a line that held very tight most of the day, he shined the most.

Keke and Lowry - while the edges played terrible contain, I felt like Lowry and Keke both filled the massive Clark void very admirably and at times

Jon Runyan also allowed no pressures yesterday.

 

[tynimiller]

Jon Runyan also allowed no pressures yesterday.

PFF didn't have this, maybe they changed that. Runyan arguably played his best game yesterday of his career it appears from many sources.