Lazard Situation...

[OldSchool101]

I just don't understand using different standards for players on the same team.

Truthfully, I wouldn’t allow different standards (I don’t in my profession and we’re 108 years strong, that’s longer than the NFL has been around) In certain situations, I would’ve set that standard early and often if you want to be on a winning team, you’ve got to be disciplined. I wouldn’t capitulate to a fans perspective. I wouldn’t wait until mini camp to have a conversation. I’d tell my players there will be an occasional season I ask more. If you don’t show up to my more? Don’t come to work we’re not here to cater to individualism. I would’ve reiterated that again just before making each contract offer, just so everyone was on the same page. Individual Feelings are going to get hurt, that’s part of team discipline.

I agree with #26 of our last SB team.. when asked what he appreciated most about Ted Thompson? He said for not trying to be a people pleaser. Bill B. And Vince L. And Brian Gutenkunst and TT are/ were not people pleasers and it seems to work just fine.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Truthfully if I was the coach I wouldn’t allow different standards. In certain situations, I would’ve set that standard early and often if you want to be on a winning team, you’ve got to be disciplined. I wouldn’t capitulate to a fans perspective. I wouldn’t wait until mini camp to have a conversation. I’d tell my players there will be an occasional season I ask more. If you don’t show up to my more? Don’t come to work we’re not here to cater to individualism. I agree with #26 of our SB team.. he respected Ted Thompson for not trying to be a people pleaser. Bill B. And Vince L. are not people pleasers and it seems to work just fine.

This “catering” philosophy you speak of is a small detail that sinks a big ship. You wouldn’t last a week in my environment. But I have guys that leave other businesses to work for me so I’m ok with that.

To Cap's point, and as is true in any organization, the same standards should be applied to all players/employees. Now different players have different ceilings. For example, no one can or should hold Lazard to a higher standard just because Adams is gone.

I'm sure like any organization, performance expectations are set with each player before the season begins. That's fair, although in the business world, i've found it unevenly applied.

It's also true that some players take on leadership roles. Rodgers is the leader of the team IMO. Campbell is probably the leader of the D. Beyond that, each position group probably has one guy the entire group looks up to. But that's completely different from setting performance expectations.

 

[realitybytez]

I'm absolutely convinced Rodgers is one of the most disciplined players in the NFL.

me too

 

[Curly Calhoun]

I agree with you. He's a great athlete and he works very hard. Another 20 lbs and he'd be a great TE. He has done the dirty work. I hope he has a great year and eventually gets the deal he wants. The only question is - has he already reached his ceiling? That's hard to tell playing in the shadow of Adams. We'll find out this year.

My guess is that he is at or near his ceiling...He's never going to be a star, but he's a valuable asset that makes any team he's on a little better.

 

[Heyjoe4]

My guess is that he is at or near his ceiling...He's never going to be a star, but he's a valuable asset that makes any team he's on a little better.

Yeah that's a fair assessment. The D needs to account for him on every play. I'm hoping his production goes up this year.

 

[tynimiller]

My guess is that he is at or near his ceiling...He's never going to be a star, but he's a valuable asset that makes any team he's on a little better.

Eh, I cannot say you're wrong, but also I don't think anyone can truly know until we see this season unfold as to where that ceiling sits. Personally I do think at this point in his career he has locked in as a for sure worst case WR4 on essentially nearly ANY receiver rooms in the NFL.

While it feels as if he has been here a long time - he truly has not been. 2022 will be merely his fourth season being expected to play a decent role for his respective team.

In that time he has lived behind arguably the biggest WR shadow we've had here since who Sterling? Either way, in most seasons which he has been here and been active in those three seasons Lazard at best was what the 4th weapon to scheme a play towards? Adams and Jones have ALWAYS been above him with just reasons. Tonyan in 2020 was also above him justly. 2021 Dillon was again justly. His targets per game played will indicate this in that he has 158 targets in the last three seasons for 41 games played in (25 starting). That is less than four targets a game.

However, when presented with targets, Lazard has been a fairly solid set of hands - posting 67.3%, 71.7% and 66.7% catch percentages over those three years.

While he has seen a decent amount of playtime, he was not a "starter" until the 2020 season - in which due to his injury only saw 10 games (9 started). So again we are not dealing with a guy with a TON of experience even as a starter.

In the end this year is truly the year I think everyone fans, MLF, AR and even Lazard himself will learn just what type of WR he might be ceiling wise. My gut tells me he is easily that WR3 level type guy...that type that will deliver for a team 600 or more yards, 6/7 TDs and toss in around 50 receptions if healthy all year (minimums) - he's honestly essentially been that.

My bet is similar to Watkins, should he stay healthy I think you can expect 50 yards production per game healthy which leaves him around 800 for the year. I personally if asked what I felt his ceiling is would be a team's WR2.

 

[OldSchool101]

To Cap's point, and as is true in any organization, the same standards should be applied to all players/employees.

absolutely. Too bad that isn’t how the real world operates. “Should” is an operative word here.
Matt himself said he wanted ALL his players here from OTA’s on. I’ll take him at his word and that means internally, it’s a nice way of saying he thinks it’s beneficial for that to happen.
So as Ive already posted. I agree

 

[tynimiller]

One feature of Lazard's game I've touched on is his ability to produce first downs when we need one (3rd and 4th downs) however I'd never researched collectively what that has been. Paul Bretl in a recent article did that though and stated, Over the last three seasons, Lazard on third or fourth downs, has caught 70% of his 53 targets and is averaging an impressive 15.9 yards per catch with eight touchdowns. Of his 37 receptions, 35 have gone for a first down. Meanwhile, in the red zone, he has caught 14 of 23 pass attempts for eight touchdowns.

That honestly is another reason why we probably hear Aaron talk so highly of Lazard, and his chances at being a WR1 for GB. The TDs in the RZ I shared the other day, and is equally impressive.

Of note Cobb also just last year caught 12 of his 17 targets on third downs and gained 10 first downs in those. He only had four receptions in the RZ and scored each time FYI.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

One feature of Lazard's game I've touched on is his ability to produce first downs when we need one (3rd and 4th downs) however I'd never researched collectively what that has been. Paul Bretl in a recent article did that though and stated, Over the last three seasons, Lazard on third or fourth downs, has caught 70% of his 53 targets and is averaging an impressive 15.9 yards per catch with eight touchdowns. Of his 37 receptions, 35 have gone for a first down. Meanwhile, in the red zone, he has caught 14 of 23 pass attempts for eight touchdowns.

That honestly is another reason why we probably hear Aaron talk so highly of Lazard, and his chances at being a WR1 for GB. The TDs in the RZ I shared the other day, and is equally impressive.

Of note Cobb also just last year caught 12 of his 17 targets on third downs and gained 10 first downs in those. He only had four receptions in the RZ and scored each time FYI.

It will be interesting to see how he does without Davante drawing double-coverage and each team's best corner. I'm rooting for him, but it will be tougher than it was.

 

[Heyjoe4]

absolutely. Too bad that isn’t how the real world operates. “Should” is an operative word here.
Matt himself said he wanted ALL his players here from OTA’s on. I’ll take him at his word and that means internally, it’s a nice way of saying he thinks it’s beneficial for that to happen.
So as Ive already posted. I agree

Well I think if the boss says it would be good to have everyone present, everyone should be present. But that's not how it works for people under contract. The contract makes certain activities voluntary and so some don't show.

IMO, it's a week or two out of their lives dedicated to their job - a job that pays millions. How hard is it? Aside from contracts and money, how hard is it to show solidarity?

 

[tynimiller]

It will be interesting to see how he does without Davante drawing double-coverage and each team's best corner. I'm rooting for him, but it will be tougher than it was.

I have full faith in AR and MLF diagnostic abilities to get a guy open personally. Much like we saw Brady and Belichick do numerous seasons without a WR1 production wise...shoot sometimes not even a WR2 really.

MLF will scheme and AR will read at the line. One is arguably a Top 5 in the league presently (MLF, the other is arguably Top 5 in GOAT conversations (Rodgers)

 

[Heyjoe4]

I have full faith in AR and MLF diagnostic abilities to get a guy open personally. Much like we saw Brady and Belichick do numerous seasons without a WR1 production wise...shoot sometimes not even a WR2 really.

MLF will scheme and AR will read at the line. One is arguably a Top 5 in the league presently (MLF, the other is arguably Top 5 in GOAT conversations (Rodgers)

Good point. There were a number of years when the Patriots WR group had a revolving door. Didn't slow down Brady or BB. Change is inevitable, in the offseason through player movement and during the season due to injury. The champs always overcome that stuff.

 

[tynimiller]

Good point. There were a number of years when the Patriots WR group had a revolving door. Didn't slow down Brady or BB. Change is inevitable, in the offseason through player movement and during the season due to injury. The champs always overcome that stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I do think it is possible it could take a few weeks for them to really start finding their strides....but I'm still optimistic between our dual RB threats and defense we can still win games till then.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Don't get me wrong, I do think it is possible it could take a few weeks for them to really start finding their strides....but I'm still optimistic between our dual RB threats and defense we can still win games till then.

I understand your point. Maybe we're a bit optimistic but we still have #12 under center and MLF as HC. I certainly have confidence that those guys can make this work. And it will take some time. Fortunately, the Packers play in a forgiving division......

 

[tynimiller]

I understand your point. Maybe we're a bit optimistic but we still have #12 under center and MLF as HC. I certainly have confidence that those guys can make this work. And it will take some time. Fortunately, the Packers play in a forgiving division......

Bad thing is @ MN to start, home against Bears and then away with Buccs.

MN is always a tough opponent for us, Bears should be a good growth game that should be easy win before hitting stride hopefully before going to Tampa

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It will be interesting to see how he does without Davante drawing double-coverage and each team's best corner. I'm rooting for him, but it will be tougher than it was.

This is my sentiment with the passing game in general. Will Rodgers and The Packers be as successful as the 10-1 record that Rodgers has had in the past in games without Davante? The offense will definitely have a bit of a different identity and until opening day rolls around, I don't think anyone knows exactly who the "starting" WR's will be. If I had to guess, it will be Watkins, Lazard and Cobb. Injuries could change that or what each WR does in the next 2 1/2 months could as well. No matter who the Packers put on the field opening day, I doubt the opposing Defense will prepare much differently and I am pretty sure they won't be scheming how to maintain their best CB or double cover a certain Packer WR, like they did with Davante.

 

[Heyjoe4]

This is my sentiment with the passing game in general. Will Rodgers and The Packers be as successful as the 10-1 record that Rodgers has had in the past in games without Davante? The offense will definitely have a bit of a different identity and until opening day rolls around, I don't think anyone knows exactly who the "starting" WR's will be. If I had to guess, it will be Watkins, Lazard and Cobb. Injuries could change that or what each WR does in the next 2 1/2 months could as well. No matter who the Packers put on the field opening day, I doubt the opposing Defense will prepare much differently and I am pretty sure they won't be scheming how to maintain their best CB or double cover a certain Packer WR, like they did with Davante.

Your point about the Packers 10-1 record without Adams is interesting. It's also why I don't understand how the market for the best receivers has gotten to $30 mil/year.

Now the Packers offense will suffer for a while with the absence of Adams. But they have two outstanding RBs who can double as receivers, and they have arguably the best QB in the NFL running the offense. I guess aside from the time it takes for all the new pieces to fit, I'm just not worried about offensive production this year. Maybe I should be worried. I'm not.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Your point about the Packers 10-1 record without Adams is interesting. It's also why I don't understand how the market for the best receivers has gotten to $30 mil/year.

I never dove into the 10-1 record and how it was obtained and against what teams and their combined records. All that said, the Packers have very much been a winning team, when Rodgers plays. So, it isn't that big of a shock, that even without Davante, a Rodgers guided team has a very good W-L percentage. A Rodgerless team, not so much. Since becoming Green Bay’s starting quarterback in 2008, Rodgers has missed 18 starts. The Packers are 6-11-1 in those games, a winning percentage of .361.

I would love to still have Davante, but not at the money he signed for. As much as I complained the last 4 or so years about the WR room, I don't think you improve the team enough by paying a WR $28+ M/year. I think Gute should have invested more draft capital in WR, prior to 2022, but it is what it is. As long as Rodgers and his new WR's jell, the current group has the potential to be really good by the end of year 1.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I never dove into the 10-1 record and how it was obtained and against what teams and their combined records. All that said, the Packers have very much been a winning team, when Rodgers plays. So, it isn't that big of a shock, that even without Davante, a Rodgers guided team has a very good W-L percentage. A Rodgerless team, not so much. Since becoming Green Bay’s starting quarterback in 2008, Rodgers has missed 18 starts. The Packers are 6-11-1 in those games, a winning percentage of .361.

I would love to still have Davante, but not at the money he signed for. As much as I complained the last 4 or so years about the WR room, I don't think you improve the team enough by paying a WR $28+ M/year. I think Gute should have invested more draft capital in WR, prior to 2022, but it is what it is. As long as Rodgers and his new WR's jell, the current group has the potential to be really good by the end of year.

Yeah I mean one sign that a team drafts well is that eventually they can't keep all their picks! Just thinking about it, Gluten has assembled a very talented squad, including backups. MLF deserves a lot of credit for how well he manages personnel, especially last year with so many starters out.

I'm interested in seeing what this team can do with an elite defense (assuming the play matches the potential). There haven't been many memorable defensive squads in Rodgers' tenure. It would be great to see the D account for some wins.

 

[OldSchool101]

I see an O inside the top 1/2 of the league, the receiving game will decide how much better.


I think this season is our best opportunity for the Packers D to carry our O (have a better points for/against). That’s going to be hard for us fans to get used to after 12 years of watching our Defensive struggles.

On paper we’re a #7 rated Defense and #10 rated Offense.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Yeah I mean one sign that a team drafts well is that eventually they can't keep all their picks! Just thinking about it, Gluten has assembled a very talented squad, including backups. MLF deserves a lot of credit for how well he manages personnel, especially last year with so many starters out.

I'm interested in seeing what this team can do with an elite defense (assuming the play matches the potential). There haven't been many memorable defensive squads in Rodgers' tenure. It would be great to see the D account for some wins.

Agreed. Besides the receivers (WR's and TE's), I don't have a lot of concerns for any other position groups. Sure the depth at S and maybe OLB could be better, but on paper, this is the best team I have seen in Green Bay, ever.

Gute has done a very nice job with Free agency and drafting as well. I wasn't too thrilled with his 2018 draft, but since then, it has been pretty good. Also, Gute deserves credit for bringing in MLF and any influence he may have had on the hires of other coaches. Getting rid of McCarthy was a big deal and I'm not so sure that some GM's would have done that, turns out Gute made a very smart move.

 

[OldSchool101]

Agreed. Besides the receivers (WR's and TE's), I don't have a lot of concerns for any other position groups. Sure the depth at S and maybe OLB could be better, but on paper, this is the best team I have seen in Green Bay, ever.

Gute has done a very nice job with Free agency and drafting as well. I wasn't too thrilled with his 2018 draft, but since then, it has been pretty good. Also, Gute deserves credit for bringing in MLF and any influence he may have had on the hires of other coaches. Getting rid of McCarthy was a big deal and I'm not so sure that some GM's would have done that, turns out Gute made a very smart move.

Yeah. Gute took a part of the TT philosophy. Ted often went against the grain, but ultimately he did a good job overall. Although I’d rather have Gute, he’s been a little more aggressive in FA and it’s paid off.

Lazard is another example of how Gutes’ staff hunts for talent. We snatched him from the Jags practice squad and for an Undrafted he’s been pretty darn good.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Will Rodgers and The Packers be as successful as the 10-1 record that Rodgers has had in the past in games without Davante?

That record is pretty amazing and I have no explanation for it. As a side note, in the only game the Packers lost without Adams Rodgers played in he only threw five passes before DeShone Kizer took over and attempted 35 passes.

Just thinking about it, Gluten has assembled a very talented squad, including backups.

I agree that aside of wide receiver and tight end the Packers have an excellent, proven starting lineup.

The backups at most positions are a question mark at this point though.

Gute has done a very nice job with Free agency and drafting as well. I wasn't too thrilled with his 2018 draft, but since then, it has been pretty good.

If you aren't thrilled with the 2018 draft despite selecting an All-Pro cornerback you shouldn't be with the 2020 one either.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

If you aren't thrilled with the 2018 draft despite selecting an All-Pro cornerback you shouldn't be with the 2020 one either.

2 years too early to fully look at the 2020 draft class. Doing so would require too much speculation IMO.

As far as the 2018 class, Alexander was a great pick, MVS was more than you normally get for a 5th rounder, but is no longer with the team. The rest of the class either never played a single snap for the Packers or fizzled out quickly.

I'll let you talk about the 2020 class, since I know exactly where you will take the discussion. In 2 years, I'll be more than happy to look closer at it.

 

[tynimiller]

Too early agreed to judge 2020 too much but I do safely make these proclamations:

Round 2 pick AJ Dillon appears to be absolutely worth such hefty draft equity some questioned at the time (myself to a degree I admit). Dude easily could end up being the "one player" you need at least each draft to not just be a roster guy or a solid depth but a bonafide special starter.

Runyan in Round 6 appears to be an absolute steal. Even if he would lose his starting spot this year (doubtful) to have a 6th rounder starting out the gate and holding on to it for two years (even with the injury depleted line) that is not something anyone should expect.

Jonathan Garvin in round 7 was an absolute steal...just how intense of a steal is still playing out, but the amount of quality snaps he's given quicker than anyone would have liked him to have to do has been impressive.